I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[olger]

Teresa, do you live in Ohio?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That seemed very aggresive and strange Pnat...

Not consistent with your usual posts.

Mark

amazing what one can do and it be ok when one has the "gift of obedience"....

you havent addressed the question, just denied and evaded.

You will have every opportunity to question my viewpoint, when I start a new thread.

I hope you allow me the same courtesy...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I have started a new thread, so dig in...

[teresaq]

Teresa, do you live in Ohio?

off-topic and "nonya". :)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

The falling short of God's glory is contrasted with sinning, or lawlessness.

ehhh, no.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

the second clause explains what the first clause means. first clause vague, second clause specific.

Actually there are two sentences separated by a coordinating conjunction. So really there are two statements:

1] All have sinned [past tense]

2] All come short of God's agape [present continuous tense]

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: olger

Teresa, do you live in Ohio?

off-topic and "nonya".

busted....

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

That seemed very aggresive and strange Pnat...

Not consistent with your usual posts.

Mark

Sorry about that. One can't hear one's voice intonation on the internet, so you didn't take it the way I intended, which was more playful than aggressive.

I'll take the responsibility for the misunderstanding.

p.s. I'm still hoping for an answer! :)

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

ehhh, no.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

the second clause explains what the first clause means. first clause vague, second clause specific. [/quote']

Actually there are two sentences separated by a coordinating conjunction. So really there are two statements:

1] All have sinned [past tense]

2] All come short of God's agape [present continuous tense]

Rob

This is my understanding as well. Also 1) seems to be speaking corporately.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

ehhh, no.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

the second clause explains what the first clause means. first clause vague, second clause specific. [/quote']

Actually there are two sentences separated by a coordinating conjunction. So really there are two statements:

1] All have sinned [past tense]

2] All come short of God's agape [present continuous tense]

Rob

im not sure what your point is...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Robert

This is my understanding as well. Also 1) seems to be speaking corporately.

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

[John317]

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

Romans 3: 23 is saying that all humanity [except Christ] has sinned. It is not saying they are sinning at the present time. Otherwise Paul statement would mean that everyone, including himself, is continuously sinning, even as he's writing the letter to the Romans.

The second part of the sentence says that every human being continuously falls short of God's glory. But falling short of God's glory is not the same as sinning. Sinning is disobedience. We fall short of God's glory even when we're obeying God, that is, even when believers practice righteousness. But that does not mean that we cannot obey God's commandments. It simply means that even our obedience to God falls short of Christ's perfect obedience. That is why we must always be continuously trusting in the merits of Jesus Christ and not in anything we do.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

Romans 3: 23 is saying that all humanity [except Christ] has sinned. It is not saying they are sinning at the present time.

so the lost are no longer sinning, as you understand it? that was my question?

[Robert]

im not sure what your point is...

You said, "first clause vague, second clause specific."

I think both are specific...that's all...

[Robert]

Romans 3:23 is saying that all humanity [except Christ] has sinned.

[Robert]

so the lost are no longer sinning, as you understand it? that was my question?

Romans 3:23 is referring to all men, both saint and sinner....Of course the sinner is living for the flesh....There is no growth, but the believer is growing...he/she is becoming less selfish. Nevertheless, as far as the law is concerned, there is none righteous because all, even the believer, is failing to perfectly live a selfless life.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Romans 3: 23 is saying that all humanity [except Christ'] has sinned. It is not saying they are sinning at the present time.

so the lost are no longer sinning, as you understand it? that was my question?

No, it clearly is not saying the lost are no longer sinning. But it is not saying, either, that all humans are sinning every moment of their lives. The Bible's principle view of sin is that it is a choice, not nature. 1 John 3: 4. Otherwise, the Bible would not command us not to sin. Romans 6: 1, 15; John 8: 11. If sin is primarily our nature and if we cannot help but sin, it would make no sense for the Scriptures to tell us to stop sinning. Also, the Scriptures teach that the righteous practice righteousness and that they keep God's commandments.

This does not mean the righteousness never sin but that they repent and confess their sins to God when they do commit sins or make mistakes. The very next verses in 1 John describe these same people who confess their sins as those who "keep His word," "keep His commandments," and "practice righteousness." 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6; 3: 7. Therefore, believers are able-- and at least some do-- keep God's commandments and obey His word. This does not mean they are never sinning nor does it mean they are not falling short of God's glory. Even those who practice righteousness are falling short of God's glory. Through God's power, there is always room for growth in righteousness and holiness. As Ellen White said, there's no stopping point where we can say we've arrived. Even in heaven, we will continue to grow spiritually and learn more of God's love, becoming more and more like Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

[pnattmbtc]

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: teresa

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

The aorist, "hemarton", in the Greek refers to an act which took place at a specific point of time in the past. Young's Literal Translation has:

Quote:

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

as opposed to "for all have sinned" as the KJV has it. I think the YLT may be more accurate here.

So when is the specific time in the past when all did sin?

In Romans 3: 23, the verb, hamartano (Strong's #264), is aorist active indicative. It may be translated as either " all sinned" or "all have sinned." Both translations are equally correct. It simply means that people have sinned at some point in the past. It doesn't refer to a particular time or event.

It is different from "all were sinning" [imperfect tense] or "all are sinning" [present continuous].

The last phrase is correctly translated as "all are falling short," or "all continuously fall short." The Greek verb, hystereema (Strongs#5302), is present middle indicative 3rd plural. It means "to come short of a privilege or standard, to miss." It's also used in 1 Cor. 1: 7; 2 Cor. 11: 9. In the latter verse it means to be in need. Humans are always in need. The Bible teaches that even the good angels fall short in the sense that they are not absolutely perfect. They also learn and are able to improve. Humans will improve throughout eternity and will never be absolutely perfect. Only God is absolutely perfect. Therefore we continuously fall short of God's glory and always have room for growth.

[teresaq]

Now EGW: "It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love [agape]. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." [DA 19]

So, what Paul is stating is that all have sinned (past tense) and all continue to fall short of God's agape love - a love that is not self-seeking!

Quote:

But falling short of God's glory is not the same as sinning.

Wishful thinking! Are you trying to reduce God's law to rules that you can keep?

i think that is the problem with us. we do try to reduce the standard to something we can do/keep, instead of looking deeper and deeper into the standard.

looking deeper and deeper into the standard will change us from "glory to glory", while laying the glory of man in the dust at the same time.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

...so the lost are no longer sinning, as you understand it? that was my question?

No, it clearly is not saying the lost are no longer sinning. But it is not saying, either, that all humans are sinning every moment of their lives. The Bible's principle view of sin is that it is a choice, not nature. 1 John 3: 4. Otherwise, the Bible would not command us not to sin. Romans 6: 1, 15; John 8: 11. If sin is primarily our nature and if we cannot help but sin, it would make no sense for the Scriptures to tell us to stop sinning. Also, the Scriptures teach that the righteous practice righteousness and that they keep God's commandments.

This does not mean the righteousness never sin but that they repent and confess their sins to God when they do commit sins or make mistakes. The very next verses in 1 John describe these same people who confess their sins as those who "keep His word," "keep His commandments," and "practice righteousness." 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6; 3: 7. Therefore, believers are able-- and at least some do-- keep God's commandments and obey His word. This does not mean they are never sinning nor does it mean they are not falling short of God's glory. Even those who practice righteousness are falling short of God's glory. Through God's power, there is always room for growth in righteousness and holiness. As Ellen White said, there's no stopping point where we can say we've arrived. Even in heaven, we will continue to grow spiritually and learn more of God's love, becoming more and more like Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

thank you for sharing that. :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresa

"all" looks like "all" to me, whether past, present or whatever, so im rather missing the point.

all have sinned- does that mean everyone has sinned but everyone no longer sins now?

The aorist, "hemarton", in the Greek refers to an act which took place at a specific point of time in the past. Young's Literal Translation has:

Quote:

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

as opposed to "for all have sinned" as the KJV has it. I think the YLT may be more accurate here.

So when is the specific time in the past when all did sin? When Adam sinned. So Paul's idea may be that all sinned in Adam, a thought he develops further in Romans 5, especially vss 12-18.

That being said, Romans 3:21-26 is one of the most difficult passages in Scripture to interpret. Here's Waggoner's take:

Quote:

There is a double reason why no one can be justified by the law. The first is that all have sinned. Therefore the law must continue to declare them guilty, no matter what their future life might be. No man can ever do more than his duty to God, and no possible amount of good deeds can undo one wrong act.

But more than this, men have not only sinned, but they are sinful. "The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom.8:7. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye can not do the things that ye would." Gal. 5:17. Therefore, no matter how much a man may try to do the righteousness of the law, he will fail to find justification by it.

Another possibility about the passage is that it's dealing with God's character. Here's the passage:

Quote:

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The character of God idea would be that by means of Christ's death, God's righteous character is revealed. In this case, it doesn't seem like it would really matter whether one took "fall all sinned" to be corporate or not.

A few disjointed thoughts on a difficult passage.

ahhh, ok. i appreciate the thoughts, and yes peter was correct about pauls writings.

i think waggoner states the facts best.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Romans 3:23 is saying that all humanity [except Christ] has sinned.

Right, "all have sinned"

Quote:

It is not saying they are sinning at the present time.

Heresy!

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am saying the last phrase of Romans 3: 23-- "all.. are falling short of God's glory"-- is not a reference to the fact that people are sinning in the present. But neither am I denying that the world is full of sinners. However, the verse itself is saying that no one comes up to God's ideal and that there is always room for growth and improvement.

Here are some ways in which this Greek verb has been translated:

---and all alike are unworthy of God's praise (Knox)

---and none have attained the glorious likeness of God (Conybeare)

---and all fall short of God's glorious ideal (Twentieth Century NT)

--and lack the glory which comes from God (Montgomery)

--and fall short of being any glory to God (The Berkeley Version)

--and are deprived of the divine splendour (New English Bible)

[Robert]

Even in heaven, we will continue to grow spiritually and learn more of God's love, becoming more and more like Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

Oh please...stop the nonsense!!!! In heaven we will be sinless, John....We will "measure with the life of God". We will not think of self, we will live for those around us. We will be perfect as God is perfect....What you are inferring is that there will be imperfection in heaven and hence we must grow.

[Robert]

.... the verse itself is saying that no one comes up to God's ideal and that there is always room for growth and improvement.

But you are one who teaches that we are under the jurisdiction of the law....That it is binding on the believer....If so we can all kiss heaven goodbye!

Then you do double-take and change "the glory of God" - His agape love - to "God's ideal"! What the heck is that? Call it like Paul calls it - we fall short of that love that is not self-seeking, period.

The moment you cease to live for yourself and become "the servant of all" that moment you are living Christ's life, but beware because if you live a selfless life here on earth you will experience wretched poverty because in this world if there's no self-interest and self-seeking you'll be without. Hence Jesus' poverty.

That's why EGW says, "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty. "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." [RH 6-27-1899]

Rob

[olger]

i think waggoner states the facts best.

Thank you,

gcw