I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you see Jesus literally in us? [/quote']

I know this wasn't directed at me....

Apparently Mark sees the HS as a dominate force that just takes over the will and infuses you with righteousness.

Apparently Mark does not see the Holy Spirit in that way...

:-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then you are calling the Holy Spirit a Judaizer, as He is working in me.

The Holy Spirit will not work in anyone, as it pertains to genuine fruits, if that person goes against the gospel (i.e., in Him we are complete).

I am saying that the Judaizers taught you must do something to help Christ save you....You must do this that and the other....

You must co-operate with Jesus, are you denying that as a principle?

We need to be "led" by the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Light dawning?

Wonderful, praise God.

What is it that you love about this Sylvia? [/quote']wish i could jump on the bandwagon, but to me your posts come across as mystical and pantheistic.

like the commercial says, "wheres the meat". old commercial, maybe its before your time.

Maybe you have not received the "eyesalve" that the Laodiceans so desperately need?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I use that word loosely....A Judaizer was a Christian convert who maintained that while our past sins were forgiven, we had to do something in addition to Christ's work to be ultimately be saved. Circumcision was only one requirement. See Acts chapter 15....

A modern day Judaizer is really a Gentile Christian (this is my take) that teaches practically the same thing.

Are you saying we do not need to co-operate with God to be saved Robert?

[teresaq]

I think the emphasis should be on God's character. That is, we need not fear, because we trust in God, based on His character. It's not having the right theory of "in Christ" that gives one personal assurance, but knowing God, and His character, which gives one peace. Having said this, having wrong theories regarding justification by faith, or "in Christ," can certainly be detrimental, because it can lead us to have wrong ideas regarding God's character.

theres a glimpse of the meat!!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you see Jesus literally in us? [/quote']

Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, yes...

you see the HS literally in us? physically inside a person?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

you see the HS literally in us? physically inside a person?

What do you think this means:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Maybe you have not received the "eyesalve" that the Laodiceans so desperately need?

now, how did i know you would have such a response? oh, yes. that problem that afflicts several who post....

the same problem that keeps struggling for the ascendancy in myself and i have to stay on my knees to vanquish it.

[Twilight]

oh, yes. that problem that afflicts several who post....

the same problem that keeps struggling for the ascendency in myself and i have to stay on my knees to vanquish it.

Do you not know that we cannot see anything without the eyesalve of the Holy Spirit?

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

you see the HS literally in us? physically inside a person?

What do you think this means:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

you understand that literally as opposed to figuratively?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda

oh, yes. that problem that afflicts several who post....

the same problem that keeps struggling for the ascendency in myself and i have to stay on my knees to vanquish it.

Do you not know that we cannot see anything without the eyesalve of the Holy Spirit?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What do you think this means:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive' date=' because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[/quote'] you understand that literally as opposed to figuratively?

How do you have the Holy Spirit in you "figuratively"?

Can you explain that concept?

What do you mean by "figuratively"?

And where do you find in the bible that it is "figurative"?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Holy Spirit will not work in anyone, as it pertains to genuine fruits, if that person goes against the gospel (i.e., in Him we are complete).

I am saying that the Judaizers taught you must do something to help Christ save you....You must do this that and the other.... [/quote']

You must co-operate with Jesus, are you denying that as a principle?

I am denying that you are saved by anything you do...or the Spirit does in you. He will not go against the truth as it is in Christ....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

How do you have the Holy Spirit in you "figuratively"?

And where do you find in the bible that it is "figurative"?

we do agree that there is much in the bible that is figurative, do we not?

i mean does Jesus literally take His blood and physically wash us with it, or is it figuratively speaking?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

How do you have the Holy Spirit in you "figuratively"?

A related question:

Do demons literally get inside people? Jesus commanded the demons "to come out" of people, and then the record is that the demons came out (Mark 1: 25, 26). That's what the Bible says happens in demon-possession. People are literally possessed, or in-dwelt, by demons. If demons do, why not the Holy Spirit?

[Robert]

There are many metaphors in the Bible....Failure to realize this leads to false doctrines.

Now, as to the Spirit of God, remember He is not flesh and blood....He is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at once....He dwells in the inner man...the mind (which is an abstract idea)....Just as Christ assumed humanity, so the Holy Spirit assumes humanity. He lives in fallen flesh just as Christ deity lived in fallen flesh at the incarnation. Only what Christ did saved us....What the Holy Spirit does is seals our redemption because we have accepted this truth.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am denying that you are saved by anything you do...or the Spirit does in you. He will not go against the truth as it is in Christ....

So there is no co-operation between man and God in the matter of salvation Robert?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

we do agree that there is much in the bible that is figurative' date=' do we not?

i mean does Jesus literally take His blood and physically wash us with it, or is it figuratively speaking? [/quote']

Yes there are figurative teachings in the bible and are clearly explained as such.

But I am extremely curious how you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "figurative" and how you have arrived at that from the bible?

And if it is figurative, what is it figurative of?

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

A related question:

Do demons literally get inside people? Jesus commanded the demons "to come out" of people, and then the record is that the demons came out (Mark 1: 25, 26). That's what the Bible says happens in demon-possession. People are literally possessed, or in-dwelt, by demons. If demons do, why not the Holy Spirit?

this is a bible subject our pioneers studied extensively.

it is quite obvious their "descendents" have not.

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. {EW 145.1}

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

To the only living and true God, occupying this locality, David directs his prayer. Ps.lxxx,1. - "Thou that dwellest between the Cherubims, shine forth." Also in his exalted contemplations of God and his wonderful works, he cries out, in view of his coming to judge the world, "The Lord reigneth, let the people tremble; he sitteth between the Cherubims; let the earth be moved." Ps.xcix,1. - Then as God says what he means, and means what he says, he has a throne, high and lifted up, and did create an intelligent being, perfect in beauty, and perfect in his ways, one that "sealed up the sum, full of wisdom," from which no secret could be hidden, and did set him to be one of the anointed Cherubs that covered with his wings the burning throne of the Eternal. {July 21, 1853 JWe, ARSH 34.15}

I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3}

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

if eating His flesh and drinking His blood is figurative, did we all of a sudden switch to literal, or pantheism/panentheism, in assuming that Christ literally dwells in us through the HS?

aside from that notice the claim that we dwell in Him. now were all pretty smart enough to figure out that we really arent physically inside of Christ, so why would we think the HS or fallen angels are literally, physically, inside of us?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

A related question:

Do demons literally get inside people? Jesus commanded the demons "to come out" of people, and then the record is that the demons came out (Mark 1: 25, 26). That's what the Bible says happens in demon-possession. People are literally possessed, or in-dwelt, by demons. If demons do, why not the Holy Spirit?

this is a bible subject our pioneers studied extensively.

it is quite obvious their "descendents" have not.

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. {EW 145.1}

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

To the only living and true God, occupying this locality, David directs his prayer. Ps.lxxx,1. - "Thou that dwellest between the Cherubims, shine forth." Also in his exalted contemplations of God and his wonderful works, he cries out, in view of his coming to judge the world, "The Lord reigneth, let the people tremble; he sitteth between the Cherubims; let the earth be moved." Ps.xcix,1. - Then as God says what he means, and means what he says, he has a throne, high and lifted up, and did create an intelligent being, perfect in beauty, and perfect in his ways, one that "sealed up the sum, full of wisdom," from which no secret could be hidden, and did set him to be one of the anointed Cherubs that covered with his wings the burning throne of the Eternal. {July 21, 1853 JWe, ARSH 34.15}

I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3}

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

if eating His flesh and drinking His blood is figurative, did we all of a sudden switch to literal, or pantheism/panentheism, in assuming that Christ literally dwells in us through the HS?

aside from that notice the claim that we dwell in Him. now were all pretty smart enough to figure out that we really arent physically inside of Christ, so why would we think the HS or fallen angels are literally, physically, inside of us?

I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within.

Because if I am to accept the idea that it is "metaphorical", I have to accept a rationale not derived from the bible texts.

That satan can take a form, is nothing new, he will even be able to look like Jesus.

Also to accept your view, I would have to ascribe form to the Holy Spirit.

I do not see that in the bible.

It is not therefore logical and I must reject it as unbiblical, unless you can show me a text to show the Holy Spirit has form?

Or that it does not literally dwell within us?

Because all I have is this, which clearly states that the Holy Spirit will be in me:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The only ones that it is not in, are those that cannot receive Him because they do not know Him.

But those that have Him with them, and then move to the experience of having Him "in them", they are the ones that can receive Him.

How do you view yourself in this?

Do you not have the Holy Spirit?

-----------------

You also did not explain how you have the Holy Spirit in you "figuratively".

What that means, and where you derive that from the bible.

To question another position, your own has to be first based on logic.

What is your logic here?

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

this is a bible subject our pioneers studied extensively.

it is quite obvious their "descendents" have not.

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. {EW 145.1}

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

To the only living and true God, occupying this locality, David directs his prayer. Ps.lxxx,1. - "Thou that dwellest between the Cherubims, shine forth." Also in his exalted contemplations of God and his wonderful works, he cries out, in view of his coming to judge the world, "The Lord reigneth, let the people tremble; he sitteth between the Cherubims; let the earth be moved." Ps.xcix,1. - Then as God says what he means, and means what he says, he has a throne, high and lifted up, and did create an intelligent being, perfect in beauty, and perfect in his ways, one that "sealed up the sum, full of wisdom," from which no secret could be hidden, and did set him to be one of the anointed Cherubs that covered with his wings the burning throne of the Eternal. {July 21, 1853 JWe, ARSH 34.15}

I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {EW 152.3}

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

if eating His flesh and drinking His blood is figurative, did we all of a sudden switch to literal, or pantheism/panentheism, in assuming that Christ literally dwells in us through the HS?

aside from that notice the claim that we dwell in Him. now were all pretty smart enough to figure out that we really arent physically inside of Christ, so why would we think the HS or fallen angels are literally, physically, inside of us? [/quote']

I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within.

Because if I am to accept the idea that it is "metaphorical", I have to accept a rationale not derived from the bible texts.

cool!! then we are literally dwelling in Christ, as in physically, by your "logic".

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me....

[Woody]

Quote:

Are you saying we do not need to co-operate with God to be saved Robert?

This really is not all that difficult for an open person to understand. It's as simple as ABC.

Our 'saved' status was secured 2,000 years ago. There is nothing that you could do to add or subtract to it either by trying extra hard or even reaching out to take it.

If you have a gift under the tree .... that gift is there whether you accept it by reaching under the tree ... or not. The gift remains what it is ... a gift.

The simple matter of accepting the gift just means that you will now be able to use and benefit from that fruitcake or whatever it might be.

The same with the gift of eternal life. That has been secured for you. No matter how many good works you perform ... it will not change the gift. If you want to benefit from the gift ... you do have to reach out and take ahold of it and accept it.

[Woody]

Quote:

I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within

If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you Mark ... why are you still sinning?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

cool!! then we are literally dwelling in Christ, as in physically, by your "logic".

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me....

one has to wonder how we all fit inside of Jesus, even one at a time, not to mention however many are truly following Him at any given moment.....

[John317]

Quote:

I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within

If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you Mark ... why are you still sinning?

May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant.

The dwelling of the Holy Spirit does not mean people don't ever sin or make mistakes or fall short of God's glorious ideal for us. However, when the Holy Spirit is dwelling in the believer, the Bible teaches that he/she won't practice willful, deliberate sin. It's important to understand the difference. Practice of sin means habitual sinning rather than the practice of righteousness, or right doing. The Holy Spirit helps us learn how to practice righteousness if we allow Him to teach us, and He also empowers us to do it. He fills our hearts with love for everyone, including the most unloving and unlovely. But despite this-- as 1 John 1: 5-10 shows-- spirit-filled believers still may sin occasionally.