I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[Woody]

The fruit reveals the tree. Mean-spirited remarks depict an empty theology.

Some of the things one reads on this forum are shocking. Aren't we, in some manner of speaking, brothers?

How very true.

[Woody]

Regarding the world being saved, in a number of places Christ is referred to as "the Savior of the world" or "the Savior of all men." Ellen White writes:

Quote:

Christ was tempted by Satan in a hundredfold severer manner than was Adam, and under circumstances in every way more trying. The deceiver presented himself as an angel of light, but Christ withstood his temptations. He redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall, and saved the world.(YI 6/2/98)

To individual receive eternal life, one must respond to the Holy Spirit (or, equivalent, no resist/reject Him), but corporately, Christ saved the entire world. As 1SM 343 puts it, he restored "the whole race of men to favor with God."

Quote:

He arose from the tomb enshrouded with a cloud of angels in wondrous power and glory--the Deity and humanity combined. He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.

Excellent point. It is the message of Satan to proclaim that we are NOT saved. He would love to cast doubt on the value on the cross.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes, we obeyed "in Christ" because your life from Adam was "in Him"....So when He defeated your love of self He did it in YOUR humanity....Therefore you obeyed in Him.... [/quote']

No way, we can have the robe of Christ righteousness, but to say "we obeyed in Him" is taking it too far.The next logical step from that is He obeys in all that WE should obey, like keeping the commandments for us so we don't need to? No way.

Did someone say 1Cor.1:30?

30 And of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This simply says as we connect with Christ, through sanctification, we progress to these attainments.

This does not mean we "obeyed in Christ." Not even close.

There is no text that says that.

I agree, Steve.

This idea that God can believe and obey "for" everyone without their cooperation is turning the Bible on its head. It is more of the forensic stuff. Forensic (legal) theology is a complete pendulum swing from do-it-yourself legalism. It really seems to me to be a broad (universal) road rather than the narrow way.

When you step back and look at it without a microscope it seems a little pagan. It's as if the object of the plan of salvation is to get God killed rather than to elicit willing belief and obedience from rebellious subjects.

[karl]

Someone here is fond of quoting this: "He restored the whole race of men to favor with God."

Rather than building a theology on a snippet or two, let's look at what else she says on the subject.

"Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God's boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. Through faith in Christ the guilty transgressor is brought into favor with God and into the strong hope of life eternal."

Favor with God is through faith.

"Jesus, suffering and dying, heard every word as the priests declared, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Christ could have come down from the cross. But it is because He would not save Himself that the sinner has hope of pardon and favor with God."

Why hope for something you already have?

"Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men unto me,"

Clearly this is a prophetic statement rather than an accomplished fact at the time it was spoken.

"But how few have a real understanding that our great High Priest presents before the Father His own blood, claiming for the sinner who receives Him as his personal Saviour all the graces which His covenant embraces as the reward of His sacrifice. This sacrifice made Him abundantly able to save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him, seeing He liveth to make intercession for them."

JS proponents would have us believe that the phrase, "who receives Him as his personal Saviour" is not necessary. The person already has these things and only needs to overtly reject Christ as his personal Saviour in order to lose them.

This theology turns everything on its head.

[karl]

"It was the transgression of the law of God that made this suffering necessary. And yet men harbor the thought, and give expression to the suggestions of Satan through those who trample upon the law of God, that all this suffering was to make that law of none effect. Deceived and blinded by the great transgressor, they tell the people that there is no law, or that, if they keep the commandments of God in this dispensation, they have fallen from grace. What a delusion is this that Satan has fastened upon human minds!"

....they tell the people that there is no law, or that, if they keep the commandments of God in this dispensation, they have fallen from grace. What a delusion....

[Twilight]

Mark, I'm trying not to do that! But even though justification and sanctification was provided at the cross, these are ongoing processes. One can walk away from Christ, he has that right.

We must constantly feed our new nature in Christ or it will die out, at the same time we put away selfish lusts. That is what EGW means as well.

True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are

battling with daily temptations, over-coming their own sinful tendencies, and seeking

for holiness of heart and life make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering

and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful. {ML 248.4}

Genuine sanctification ... is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity

to the will of God. {ML 248.5}

I choose to accept what the Bible and EGW say.

I see sanctification as the seed that grows Steven.

It is always the seed.

But eventually it will be the full plant.

It will increase in size, but it is still the same thing.

Yes we are to "account" ourselves dead to sin, but not by willpower.

But by resting in the promises of God.

We are dead to sin, when we accept Gods promise...

As we feed on the bread of life, we grow.

Does that make sense?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But I have to disagree on the point about "dying daily" being "crucifixion".

Why?

Because I was crucified in Christ once, 2000 years ago.

So then why would I "die daily", if my old man is already dead?

Does he come back to life in the night whilst I am sleeping?

And how does this then balance out with this emphatic statement?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Mark :-)

do you disagree with paul?

1Co 15:31 ... I die daily.

No, I agree with Paul.

Who also said:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

--------------------

How would you reconcile the above?

Does your "old man" come back to life every time you are asleep?

Or is it possible that the "I die daily" quote is not referring to spiritual death?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you disagree with paul?

1Co 15:31 ... I die daily. [/quote']

Mark, you were not alive 2000 years ago. This sounds like something Jack Sequeria would say.A twist on pantheism.

Not at all Steve, this is what Paul said:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Your thoughts on what these verses mean?

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

let's look at what else she says on the subject

One can ALWAYS find that she says something else on a subject. It depends upon which lense you have on. Do you wear the lense of Grace or of Legalism?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

I agree, Steve.

This idea that God can believe and obey "for" everyone without their cooperation is turning the Bible on its head. It is more of the forensic stuff. Forensic (legal) theology is a complete pendulum swing from do-it-yourself legalism. It really seems to me to be a broad (universal) road rather than the narrow way.

When you step back and look at it without a microscope it seems a little pagan. It's as if the object of the plan of salvation is to get God killed rather than to elicit willing belief and obedience from rebellious subjects.

We have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Being "in Christ", does not preclude our willing co-operation, or indeed the exercise of our wills.

This is where this beautiful truth has been hijacked.

We are only ever "in Christ", when we co-operate with God.

The error is not the motif of being "in Christ", the error is the idea that being "in Christ" means you are okay to carry on willfully sinning.

We must not throw both out, but only the "willfull sin" part as error.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

The error is not the motif of being "in Christ", the error is the idea that being "in Christ" means you are okay to carry on willfully sinning.

We must not throw both out, but only the "willfull sin" part as error.

Well that should be easy. We can now end all of your bluster from thread to thread... because NO ONE has ever stated we should go on willfully sinning. It has been a fabrication on this forum for years. But it sure does allow all of you to flap your jaws.

[pnattmbtc]

The fruit reveals the tree. Mean-spirited remarks depict an empty theology.

Some of the things one reads on this forum are shocking. Aren't we, in some manner of speaking, brothers?

It was a general statement. I didn't wish to single out anyone in particular, but I'll make it clear that I didn't have you in mind. That fact that my post followed yours was just coincidence, and I apologize for not making that clear, as it's a natural assumption to make that I was commenting on you, since my post followed yours.

[pnattmbtc]

Someone here is fond of quoting this: "He restored the whole race of men to favor with God."

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Regarding the world being saved, in a number of places Christ is referred to as "the Savior of the world" or "the Savior of all men." Ellen White writes:

Quote:

Christ was tempted by Satan in a hundredfold severer manner than was Adam, and under circumstances in every way more trying. The deceiver presented himself as an angel of light, but Christ withstood his temptations. He redeemed Adam's disgraceful fall, and saved the world.(YI 6/2/98)

To individual receive eternal life, one must respond to the Holy Spirit (or, equivalent, no resist/reject Him), but corporately, Christ saved the entire world. As 1SM 343 puts it, he restored "the whole race of men to favor with God."

Quote:

He arose from the tomb enshrouded with a cloud of angels in wondrous power and glory--the Deity and humanity combined. He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.

Excellent point. It is the message of Satan to proclaim that we are NOT saved. He would love to cast doubt on the value on the cross.

[karl]

There is a clear theme running throughout The New Testament and even in some passages in the Old Testament to the effect that Christ assumes an indwelling presence in the life of the believer once he is converted. Only then can a person be said to be "in Christ." See, for example, 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 3:8-10, where Paul states that "I have suffered the loss of all things [for Christ] . . . that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ"; and Colossians 1:26-28; 2:6, where Paul describes this theme as "the mystery . . . which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: whom we preach, . . . that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. . . . As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him."

If we were to suppose that Christ's death had eradicated condemnation of the law for all men (unconditionally and forensically) we must then deal with John 3:18, which states that "he that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Scripture states that all the world is "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19). Condemnation must still be in the world weighing guilt upon the sinner until he accepts the redemption of Christ.

Waggoner observes in "Christ and His Righteousness" on page 88:

"The freedom from condemnation comes to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1); and we put on Christ by faith (Gal. 3:26, 27). It is by faith that Christ dwells in our hearts."

Thus I protest the proposition that the freedom from condemnation for those who are "in Christ," as described in Romans 8:1, is somehow supportive of a universal legal justification whereby the entire human race was "legally acquitted at the cross."

[teresaq]

JS proponents would have us believe that the phrase, "who receives Him as his personal Saviour" is not necessary. The person already has these things and only needs to overtly reject Christ as his personal Saviour in order to lose them.

if lost is lost, what is the problem? since most will reject Christ, im having a hard time seeing the problem.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

do you disagree with paul?

1Co 15:31 ... I die daily. [/quote']No, I agree with Paul.

Who also said:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

--------------------

How would you reconcile the above?

i think, as has been pointed out by some that it has to do with stopping too soon.

yes romans 6:6 says that our old man is crucified

then it says

that the body of sin might be destroyed-subjective tense

and

henceforth we should not serve sin-subjective tense

and 6:11 clarifies

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. again subjective tense

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

and again the rest of what paul says clarifies and explains what he means.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God...

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: -present ongoing tense

..

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: -present ongoing tense.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think we need to be very clear when we are speaking of a corporate work vs. an individual one. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that Christ "saved the world," or that Christ "restore the whole race of men to favor with God," as I have solid precedent from the SOP, and this agrees with Scripture (in particular John, and Paul). However, I wouldn't venture to say, "I am saved," for the reasons Ellen White brings out, which I think are completely valid.

I think this is a subject that one needs to be very careful with. I think Wieland, for example, is exceedingly careful in how he expresses things, and I find it disappointing when he's misquoted to say things he is not intending (You're not doing this.)

I don't know Sequeira's teachings as well as Wieland's, but I know them fairly well, and am quite sure he says nothing to indicate that it doesn't matter what an individual does in terms of being saved. I'm sure he makes clear that to be born again one must exercise faith, believing in Christ, and accepting Him as one's Savior. This is a reason why I keep asking for quotes. It's not right to make baseless accusations against people with no evidence. (This again, is not in reference to anything you've done. You seem to be careful to quote those you are making comments about.)

I think there is some general confusion as to what is meant by being saved. No one here is suggesting that one is saved in the end. But we can know with assurance that we are saved now. Scripture and the SOP is clear about that. What we don't know is if at some later point we might change our minds about wanting to be with Christ. That certainly is a possibility.

But just as some here on this forum are certain that I am lost ... I know that at this moment ... I am saved.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

i think, as has been pointed out by some that it has to do with stopping too soon.

yes romans 6:6 says that our old man is crucified

then it says

that the body of sin might be destroyed-subjective tense

and

henceforth we should not serve sin-subjective tense

and 6:11 clarifies

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. again subjective tense

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

and again the rest of what paul says clarifies and explains what he means.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God...

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: -present ongoing tense

..

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: -present ongoing tense.

Please consider this Teresa:

We can only "reckon" or "account" ourselves "dead to sin and alive unto God", if that is actually a reality.

So Romans 6:6 is the "fact", Romans 6:11, is the "remembering and claiming" of that fact...

Your thoughts?

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i think, as has been pointed out by some that it has to do with stopping too soon.

yes romans 6:6 says that our old man is crucified

then it says

that the body of sin might be destroyed-subjective tense

and

henceforth we should not serve sin-subjective tense

and 6:11 clarifies

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. again subjective tense

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

and again the rest of what paul says clarifies and explains what he means.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God...

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: -present ongoing tense

..

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: -present ongoing tense. [/quote']

We can only "reckon" or "account" ourselves "dead to sin and alive unto God", if that is actually a reality.

So Romans 6:6 is the "fact", Romans 6:11, is the "remembering and claiming" of that fact...

so how does "dying daily" fit into your understanding? 1Co 15:31 ... I die daily.

[teresaq]

Paul stated that he died "daily".

Now Christians interpret this to mean a "death" of the old man that happens every day.

...It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

i know the picture i get when reading this statement, but you may mean something different..

are you saying you no longer sin, ever?

[Robert]

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man [our life from Adam] is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [KJV]

[Sylvia49]

Oh, I love this! Good theology, Twilight!

[Sylvia49]

Oh,I love this! Thanks, Twilight!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

so how does "dying daily" fit into your understanding? 1Co 15:31 ... I die daily.

Paul said we are to "consider ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God" in Romans 6:11.

I cor 15:31, does not mention any spiritual application, but rather a suffering of the "flesh".

Whereas Rom 6:11 is specifically spiritual in application.

So that takes precedence over the Corinthians quote, as that is the clear text.

We are to "remain in the promises daily".

Mark :-)