The Holy Spirit, dwelling within...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The incredible thing is, the bible has been stating this all along.

What is even more incredible is the force with which Christians want to deny this...

Here we have an opportunity to show that the bible is scientifically accurate medically, beyond our wildest dreams.

The Word of God means what it says.

But we are so busy bringing our assumptions to it, that we cannot see the simple truths that predated science by about 3,500 years...

Quote:

Can your heart think and store memories?

A number of years ago, Claire Silvia from Boston , USA , had a heart transplant. Pretty soon she started to experience strange things. “It was like a whole new rhythm, a whole new feeling,” she explains. And when a journalist asked her, soon after the transplant, what she now wanted most in the world, the words “I’d die for a beer right now!” suddenly popped out of her mouth, much to her embarrassment and surprise – she didn’t previously even like beer! “Little by little,” she says, “other things started happening until I was convinced I was living with the presence of another within me.” Claire not only noticed changes in her tastes, her preferences for foods and drinks, but even in her handwriting. All she knew of the person who had donated her heart was that he was a young man who died in a motorcycle accident, strict confidentiality rules mean that organ recipients aren’t allowed to know the details of their donor. Then one night she dreamed of her donor, and the name ‘Tim L’ popped into her mind. The next day she rang her transplant co-ordinator and told her about the changes she had experienced, and asked her if her donor’s name was in fact Tim L. There was silence on the other end of the phone, and then the co-ordinator said “Please don’t pursue this.”

mark, this is the same as the life-after-death sites. they are so graphic and real, that many discard what the bible says, that the "dead know nothing", and believe there is truly a place of eternal torment.

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/Dr_Rawlings_Near_Death_Experiences.htm

we have come to the time when we are going to have to choose what we will follow after.

Quote:

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.--The Great Controversy, p. 588. {ChS 160.1}

because of the comments you have made here and there, mark, i knew you were following something quite dangerous. i beg of you to consider where you are heading and dont throw away the clear guidance we have been given to protect us!!

Quote:

Spiritualism is about to take the world captive. There are many who think that Spiritualism is upheld through trickery and imposture; but this is far from the truth. Superhuman power is working in a variety of ways, and few have any idea as to what will be the manifestations of Spiritualism in the future. The foundation for the success of Spiritualism has been laid in the assertions that have been made from the pulpits of our land. The ministers have proclaimed, as Bible doctrines, falsehoods that have originated from the arch-deceiver. The doctrine of consciousness after death, of the spirits of the dead being in communion with the living, has no foundation in the Scriptures, and yet this theory is affirmed as truth. Through this false doctrine the way has been opened for the spirits of devils to deceive the people in representing themselves as the dead. Satanic agencies personate the dead, and thus bring souls into captivity. Satan has a religion, he has a synagogue and devout worshipers. To swell the ranks of his devotees he uses all manner of deception. {ST, May 28, 1894 par. 3}

The signs and wonders of Spiritualism will become more and more pronounced as the professed Christian world rejects the plainly revealed truth of the word of God, and refuses to be guided by a plain "Thus saith the Lord," accepting instead the doctrines and the commandments of men. Through rejecting light and truth many are deciding their destiny for eternal death; and as men reject truth, the Spirit of God will gradually withdraw itself from the earth, and the prince of this earth will have more and more control over his subjects. He will show great signs and wonders as credentials of his divine claims, and through Spiritualism will work against Christ and his agencies. {ST, May 28, 1894 par. 4}

How can I accept you have any care for me at all Teresa?

When the majority of your posts are full of contention and accusation.

When you are consistent in your care, I may accept it, until then I cannot.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Another link sharing the idea that old truth can be exactly that:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11023208/

this is an interview with a heartmath institute person. heartmath is not a strictly "scientific" institute mark. it is paranormal/parapsychology interwoven with valid research.

Quote:

The mission of the Institute of HeartMath is to help establish heart-based living and global coherence by inspiring people to connect with the intelligence and guidance of their own hearts.

Since those early days when the founders began exploring the budding concept that the human heart held a vast, powerful and previously unimagined intelligence and wisdom to guide us, heal us and comfort us throughout our lives, HeartMath has taken a leading role in the scientific research of what is now widely known as heart-based living.

They are not responsible for all the research Teresa.

Why not examine the original sources they quote?

I agree that I would not accept any of their positions.

But they are useful in that they have gathered the information together.

Science is rediscovering what the bible has been saying all along.

Now, how we approach this revelation is competely up to each of us as individuals.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would be careful taking one quote from Ellen White and building a doctrine on the Holy Spirit and His function and means of communication...

I could quote several hundred statements from Ellen White dealing with this. Really. Several hundred.

When confronted with contrary evidence, you dismiss this as "one text." You did this with "kidneys," even after I pointed out this expression was used several dozen times in Scripture. Here you're trying the same tactic, when she uses this expression hundreds of times.

Quote:

You see, there is something you have missed here.

The heart itself has "brain nerves"...

So you think when Ellen White speaks of the "sensitive nerves of the brain" she has the heart in mind? The kidneys as well?

What would lead you to think along these lines?

Regarding #317173, you quoted something from the SOP with no explanation. I don't know why.

Quote:

M:When we examine the reasoning of Christ, we find that our thoughts rise up from our "feelings, desires and motives".

Not the other way around.

T:Regardless, all of these things are functions of the mind.

M:Again, you are making an assumptive statement without basis in scripture Pnat.

You're unaware that feelings, desires, and motives originate in the mind?

Regarding "reins"

Quote:

The Hebrews often make the reins the seat of the affections, and ascribe to them knowledge, joy, pain, pleasure; hence in Scripture it is said that God searches the heart and tries the reins. -- ATS (American Tract Society) Bible Dictionary

Quote:

What is the difference between the "reins" and the "heart"? There appears to be some overlap, but it seems that the "reins" are more restricted to the emotional center of man, while the "heart" is more concerned with the thoughts, though our thoughts can also be accompanied with emotional overtones. Notice the first mention of heart in the Bible.

Quote:

The Hebrew words used are related, but “bachan, heart” is broader in its meaning than “kilyah, reins.” “Reins” is symbolic of the physical reality, while “heart” encompasses the spiritual nature as well. The same distinction exists in the Greek words. “Reins” focuses more on the physical reality and “heart” also includes the intangibles of thought and emotion.(http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bible-Studies-1654/heart.htm)

Quote:

According to Hebrew psychology the reins are the seat of the deepest emotions and affections of man, which God alone can fully know. Thus the Revised Version (British and American) has substituted "heart" for "reins" in the text of Job 19:27; Psalms 7:9; 16:7; 26:2; 73:21; Proverbs 23:16; Jeremiah 11:20; 12:2; 17:10; 20:12; the translation "inward parts" is found but once (Psalms 139:13).

Mark, do you really wish to contend that the kidneys are the seat of the deepest emotions and affections of man?

Did you read any of the posts I have submitted on the latest scientific studies that clearly show the heart has emotional function Pnat?

I notice you have not commented on them?

In one of them, there is a reference to interaction between the heart and kidneys.

Did you read that?

Mark

[Twilight]

Let's get back to the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Let's assume that the heart here is the literal heart, in the chest region. How does the Holy Spirit literally dwell in it?

I do not know.

The bible does not say.

But it says He does.

That is sufficient for me.

Christ dwells in my heart by faith.

He pours His love into my heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

How He does this is a spiritual mystery.

But He does do this.

If you want anything beyond that, I cannot help you.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Did you read any of the posts I have submitted on the latest scientific studies that clearly show the heart has emotional function Pnat?

I notice you have not commented on them?

In one of them, there is a reference to interaction between the heart and kidneys.

Did you read that?

Yes. I saw there was some hormones secreted and some information passed back and forth, but that's a far cry from what the human mind is capable of. Bees can pass information back and forth. What the human heart does is no different from what the heart of any other animal does. The seat of emotions, desires, motives, affections, etc. are much different for a human than for other animals. Wherein lies the difference? In the mind, of course.

Quote:

The sensitive nerves of the brain have lost their healthy tone by morbid excitation to gratify an unnatural desire for sensual indulgence. (Counsels for the Church, page 109)

The SOP has hundreds of references like this. This is not referring to the chest region heart or the kidneys.

As I've pointed out, if there were something to your idea, when humans have heart and kidney transplants, of which thousands have been done, that should totally change their motives, affections, desires, etc. In short, the personality of the one who had the transplant would totally change.

Quote:

Me:Let's get back to the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Let's assume that the heart here is the literal heart, in the chest region. How does the Holy Spirit literally dwell in it?

Mark:I do not know.

Which is a good reason to look for another possibility.

Quote:

God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things.(3SM 217)

Quote:

The bible does not say.

But it says He does.

The Bible says many things which aren't literally true. It's a common error to mistake spiritual truths for physical statements, thus trivializing the truth. For example, when Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees," the disciples said, "It is because we have no bread."

Quote:

That is sufficient for me. Christ dwells in my heart by faith.

But not sufficient for God! He has no desire that we have a mystical, incomprehensible religion. He desires that we use common sense, and reason. We can't give a reason for the things we believe, especially if they don't make sense, by answering "I don't know."

Jesus Christ is a human being. He is in heaven. Human beings do not literally inhabit other human beings. That Jesus Christ dwells in our heart by faith is clearly a spiritual truth, not a physical statement.

Quote:

He pours His love into my heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

How He does this is a spiritual mystery.

But He does do this.

If you want anything beyond that, I cannot help you.

Once you claim to believe something which you say you don't understand, there's not much more to discuss. It would be interesting to discuss (separate thread) why you think God would be pleased to have us believe things which make no sense to us.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Did you read any of the posts I have submitted on the latest scientific studies that clearly show the heart has emotional function Pnat?

I notice you have not commented on them?

In one of them, there is a reference to interaction between the heart and kidneys.

Did you read that?

Yes. I saw there was some hormones secreted and some information passed back and forth, but that's a far cry from what the human mind is capable of. Bees can pass information back and forth. What the human heart does is no different from what the heart of any other animal does. The seat of emotions, desires, motives, affections, etc. are much different for a human than for other animals. Wherein lies the difference? In the mind, of course.

The research is showing that there is more to the heart then it seems you are willing to admit.

We as adventists are so full of "mental knowledge", but do not understand the most basic truths about genuine conversion and its role in the heart.

If you want it all to be the mind Pnat, it does not matter what I say, or what I point to, it will always only ever be mental conversion that you will consider.

With all of our "mental" conversions, we are still here as a people, still squablling and still unable to deliver the gospel.

I will abandon you to your "head worship" viewpoint my friend and pray that the Lord can somehow reach you on this important subject.

I do not feel the post above indicates any interest on your part to really consider the topic, so I will not go any further. It would be pointless.

I do look forward to other more fruitful discussions on other things however.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

M:The research is showing that there is more to the heart then it seems you are willing to admit.

??? There's nothing in the research I'm not willing to admit. Why would you think that?

As I pointed out, this research is not unique to man. That which makes man different than the animals is his mind. Other animals have hearts that secrete hormones, and exchange information. There's nothing special in that.

Quote:

We as adventists are so full of "mental knowledge", but do not understand the most basic truths about genuine conversion and its role in the heart.

If you want it all to be the mind Pnat, it does not matter what I say, or what I point to, it will always only ever be mental conversion that you will consider.

With all of our "mental" conversions, we are still here as a people, still squablling and still unable to deliver the gospel.

I will abandon you to your "head worship" viewpoint my friend and pray that the Lord can somehow reach you on this important subject.

I do not feel the post above indicates any interest on your part to really consider the topic, so I will not go any further. It would be pointless.

I do look forward to other more fruitful discussions on other things however.

1.Describing the functions of the mind as merely "mental," is either misunderstanding things, or misleading. The mind includes everything that the word "heart" encompasses, as well as the word "kidneys." That is, things like the emotions, the affections, the desires, the motives. All of these reside in the mind.

2.That your idea regarding the heart doesn't fly is seen by the simple argument of transplants, which I presented several times, but I don't believe you responded to (I don't recall that you did.) If what you are suggesting were true, then when people have heart transplants or kidney transplants, that should change their personality.

3.I also explain things in terms of the expression "I love you with all my heart" vs. "I love you with all my mind." Both of the expressions are dealing with functions of the mind, but convey different meanings. Scripture is the same way. The heart, and the kidneys, conveyed a different meaning than "mind," although all these words have to do with our thought processes, which reside in the head region.

4.As the SOP points out, all communication from heaven with man which affects the inner man happens through the "sensitive nerves of the brain." Now if you are able to read from this that this has to do with the chest region heart, or the kidneys, then you have no ground whatsoever to complain to anyone about not taking things literally that you think should be taken literally.

[Twilight]

Quote:

M:The research is showing that there is more to the heart then it seems you are willing to admit.

??? There's nothing in the research I'm not willing to admit. Why would you think that?

As I pointed out, this research is not unique to man. That which makes man different than the animals is his mind. Other animals have hearts that secrete hormones, and exchange information. There's nothing special in that.

Quote:

We as adventists are so full of "mental knowledge", but do not understand the most basic truths about genuine conversion and its role in the heart.

If you want it all to be the mind Pnat, it does not matter what I say, or what I point to, it will always only ever be mental conversion that you will consider.

With all of our "mental" conversions, we are still here as a people, still squablling and still unable to deliver the gospel.

I will abandon you to your "head worship" viewpoint my friend and pray that the Lord can somehow reach you on this important subject.

I do not feel the post above indicates any interest on your part to really consider the topic, so I will not go any further. It would be pointless.

I do look forward to other more fruitful discussions on other things however.

1.Describing the functions of the mind as merely "mental," is either misunderstanding things, or misleading. The mind includes everything that the word "heart" encompasses, as well as the word "kidneys." That is, things like the emotions, the affections, the desires, the motives. All of these reside in the mind.

2.That your idea regarding the heart doesn't fly is seen by the simple argument of transplants, which I presented several times, but I don't believe you responded to (I don't recall that you did.) If what you are suggesting were true, then when people have heart transplants or kidney transplants, that should change their personality.

3.I also explain things in terms of the expression "I love you with all my heart" vs. "I love you with all my mind." Both of the expressions are dealing with functions of the mind, but convey different meanings. Scripture is the same way. The heart, and the kidneys, conveyed a different meaning than "mind," although all these words have to do with our thought processes, which reside in the head region.

4.As the SOP points out, all communication from heaven with man which affects the inner man happens through the "sensitive nerves of the brain." Now if you are able to read from this that this has to do with the chest region heart, or the kidneys, then you have no ground whatsoever to complain to anyone about not taking things literally that you think should be taken literally.

I am going to withdraw from this discussion with you Pnat.

For the reasons stated above.

Does not mean we cannot have other interesting discussions.

But there is no point carrying this any further. :-)

Mark

[Woody]

Tom Alert. Tom Alert:

They are finally stopping apparently. Wow. Just think of all the good cyberspace that was wasted. But I guess it is better late than never.

Well ... I hope that your good post had some impact here Tom. I guess it could have been worse.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Quote:

Can your heart think and store memories?

A number of years ago, Claire Silvia from Boston , USA , had a heart transplant. Pretty soon she started to experience strange things. “It was like a whole new rhythm, a whole new feeling,” she explains. And when a journalist asked her, soon after the transplant, what she now wanted most in the world, the words “I’d die for a beer right now!” suddenly popped out of her mouth, much to her embarrassment and surprise – she didn’t previously even like beer! “Little by little,” she says, “other things started happening until I was convinced I was living with the presence of another within me.” Claire not only noticed changes in her tastes, her preferences for foods and drinks, but even in her handwriting. All she knew of the person who had donated her heart was that he was a young man who died in a motorcycle accident, strict confidentiality rules mean that organ recipients aren’t allowed to know the details of their donor. Then one night she dreamed of her donor, and the name ‘Tim L’ popped into her mind. The next day she rang her transplant co-ordinator and told her about the changes she had experienced, and asked her if her donor’s name was in fact Tim L. There was silence on the other end of the phone, and then the co-ordinator said “Please don’t pursue this.”

mark, this is the same as the life-after-death sites. they are so graphic and real, that many discard what the bible says, that the "dead know nothing", and believe there is truly a place of eternal torment.

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/Dr_Rawlings_Near_Death_Experiences.htm

we have come to the time when we are going to have to choose what we will follow after.

Quote:

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.--The Great Controversy, p. 588. {ChS 160.1}

because of the comments you have made here and there, mark, i knew you were following something quite dangerous. i beg of you to consider where you are heading and dont throw away the clear guidance we have been given to protect us!!

Quote:

Spiritualism is about to take the world captive. There are many who think that Spiritualism is upheld through trickery and imposture; but this is far from the truth. Superhuman power is working in a variety of ways, and few have any idea as to what will be the manifestations of Spiritualism in the future. The foundation for the success of Spiritualism has been laid in the assertions that have been made from the pulpits of our land. The ministers have proclaimed, as Bible doctrines, falsehoods that have originated from the arch-deceiver. The doctrine of consciousness after death, of the spirits of the dead being in communion with the living, has no foundation in the Scriptures, and yet this theory is affirmed as truth. Through this false doctrine the way has been opened for the spirits of devils to deceive the people in representing themselves as the dead. Satanic agencies personate the dead, and thus bring souls into captivity. Satan has a religion, he has a synagogue and devout worshipers. To swell the ranks of his devotees he uses all manner of deception. {ST, May 28, 1894 par. 3}

The signs and wonders of Spiritualism will become more and more pronounced as the professed Christian world rejects the plainly revealed truth of the word of God, and refuses to be guided by a plain "Thus saith the Lord," accepting instead the doctrines and the commandments of men. Through rejecting light and truth many are deciding their destiny for eternal death; and as men reject truth, the Spirit of God will gradually withdraw itself from the earth, and the prince of this earth will have more and more control over his subjects. He will show great signs and wonders as credentials of his divine claims, and through Spiritualism will work against Christ and his agencies. {ST, May 28, 1894 par. 4}

[/quote']

How can I accept you have any care for me at all Teresa? When the majority of your posts are full of contention and accusation. When you are consistent in your care, I may accept it, until then I cannot.

mark, these accusations against me is not answering the points in my posts.

we have been given guidance and counsel that these things were to happen long before they came to pass, that alone should drive us to give heed and study more what we have been given so that we will be safe.

so, how exactly is the first post of a persons transplant account any different from 1. the nde and obe of some and 2. being "possessed" by a dead person?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Quote:

Science. 1985 Nov 15;230(4727):767-70.

Atrial natriuretic factor: a hormone produced by the heart.

de Bold AJ.

Systematic studies on the significance of the secretory-like morphological characteristic of cardiac atrial muscle cells of mammals led to the finding that these cells produce a polypeptide hormone. This hormone, described in 1981 as atrial natriuretic factor (ANF), is diuretic (natriuretic), hypotensive, and has an inhibitory effect on renin and aldosterone secretion. Thus, ANF probably intervenes in the short- and long-term control of water and electrolyte balance and of blood pressure. Phylogenetically, ANF appears early, suggesting different functions for this peptide in accordance with each species' environment. Knowledge of the properties of the hormone should provide insights into the pathophysiology of important clinical entities and lead to the development of new pharmaceutical products.

This puts it in the realm of true scientific research, at least it does for me. Thanks, Mark.

The opening of one person's mind to the possibility is adequate reward Pam.

Thank you. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

I will abandon you to your "head worship" viewpoint my friend and pray that the Lord can somehow reach you on this important subject.

There's are a number of points, made repeatedly, that you never responded to. Discussions are more pleasant when there's more give and take. We don't have to agree, but at least we can be good listeners.

Regarding your prayer, I don't know that the Lord can answer this prayer.

First of all, you're asking the Lord to scratch where it doesn't itch. I don't have the "head worship" viewpoint you're praying about.

Secondly, you're assuming you're right. You might be wrong. How would the Lord answer the prayer then?

Why not pray something like, "Lord, open our eyes to perceive the truth, and be willing to adjust our viewpoints accordingly."?

Also, in general, I think announcing publicly that you are going to pray that the Lord can reach someone with whom you are disagreeing under the assumption that you are right and the other person is wrong doesn't show good judgment.

[Woody]

Quote:

Also, in general, I think announcing publicly that you are going to pray that the Lord can reach someone with whom you are disagreeing under the assumption that you are right and the other person is wrong doesn't show good judgment.

I think perhaps he goes along with his friends post below:

Quote:

"it is impossible for me to be in error. God is good. if we obey Him, we will know the truth! The problem with deception in they don't know their deceived." Steve billiter 12-23-09

#312420 - at 06:12 PM Re: "In Christ" what does that mean?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I will abandon you to your "head worship" viewpoint my friend and pray that the Lord can somehow reach you on this important subject.

There's are a number of points, made repeatedly, that you never responded to. Discussions are more pleasant when there's more give and take. We don't have to agree, but at least we can be good listeners.

Regarding your prayer, I don't know that the Lord can answer this prayer.

First of all, you're asking the Lord to scratch where it doesn't itch. I don't have the "head worship" viewpoint you're praying about.

Secondly, you're assuming you're right. You might be wrong. How would the Lord answer the prayer then?

Why not pray something like, "Lord, open our eyes to perceive the truth, and be willing to adjust our viewpoints accordingly."?

Also, in general, I think announcing publicly that you are going to pray that the Lord can reach someone with whom you are disagreeing under the assumption that you are right and the other person is wrong doesn't show good judgment.

I never claimed to have good judgment my friend.

I can be a little direct at times.

I have studied this and studied this.

My concern was that you never really considered anything I said.

But seemed intent to wrest on the position of "brain nerves" from the SOP and not allow any new thought to present itself to you.

We have both made all of our arguments.

It is now for the Holy Spirit to convict.

Because I cannot convince you of anything, the only thing I can do is point to the scriptures and then leave it to the Lord.

I have done that.

So there is no further point of discussion as the same points just keep coming up again and again. :-)

There has been no movement Pnat, the discussion cannot go anywhere right now.

I have also learned with this truth, that you have to give people time.

When a fundemantal belief is challenged, very very few people can accept it initially, it is only the persistent ministry of the Holy Spirit that can change a persons heart on any point.

Did you, for example, do as I suggested?

Did you temporarily lay aside your preconceived ideas of the Heart and the Holy Spirit and prayerfully study the NT from the perspective I have presented?

Have you genuinely attempted this, or have you engaged in this discussion to show your own viewpoint is absolutely correct?

Because if not, it will not matter what I say, you will never agree.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

I never claimed to have good judgment my friend.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Have you genuinely attempted this, or have you engaged in this discussion to show your own viewpoint is absolutely correct?

Because if not, it will not matter what I say, you will never agree.

My beliefs have changed countless times since I was first converted. I was a Calvinist at first, and became an SDA. As an SDA, I became acquainted with the 1888 message. I've modified my thinking in regards to the judgment, the atonement, the character of God, many issues, many times. I wouldn't have been able to do this had I not been open-minded to new ideas. So I am open to new ideas, but they have to be ideas that make some sense.

pnattmbtc is one of the most reasonable and thoughtful people posting here at club adventist. Don't confuse his careful consideration of what you post with an unwillingness to hear what you say.

[Twilight]

If you present an idea which is illogical and unreasonable,

How about angels possessing your mind (Ellen White)?

How about a bush burning without any damage?

How about, a man walking on water, is that unreasonable or illogical?

You have to be careful here that you do not make an idol of your own reasoning and your own logic.

Sometimes spiritual things are "unreasonable" and seem "illogical", but just because that might be ones judgement, does not mean that that is the truth of the situation.

-------------

We should take the plain word of God and the leading of the holy spirit and then form doctrine. Logic will just make us cold and proud.

-------------

It might also be easier, if you asked a couple of questions at a time, then people might have time to respond.

-------------

Also please clarify, why you think, that the Holy Spirit, cannot dwell inside a human.

What physical properties is it that deny access to the Holy Spirit, please clarify this point?

Mark

[Twilight]

So, to conclude, I'm willing to do as you suggest, if you can make some sort of presentation which makes at least some sense.

What is it you want me to present.

Jesus speaks of the heart, continually, as a source of thought.

Now you accept this, I understand.

The point I have been making, is that this is the heart, not the mind, there is a word in Greek for mind.

Your argument is that heart means mind.

My argument is heart means heart.

There seemed however to be some sort of mental blockage on this idea, that in your thinking there is no other option than the mind being the heart.

There was also a blockage, on the idea, that the Holy Spirit can dwell inside a human.

So we have here two fundamental aspects of the new birth, which you have a blockage on.

I cannot reason your blockage away, only the Holy Spirit can do that.

This was why asked you to study this out prayerfully, because I know, that this cannot be reached by your intellect, it has to be shown by the Holy Spirit.

All spiritual truth has to be revealed by the Holy Spirit, we can gain intellectual knowledge, but this is not the same, as spiritual knowledge.

This is why I ask you to pray about this, you will never get this if you think that you can understand this with a mere mental assent.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

My beliefs have changed countless times since I was first converted. I was a Calvinist at first, and became an SDA. As an SDA, I became acquainted with the 1888 message. I've modified my thinking in regards to the judgment, the atonement, the character of God, many issues, many times. I wouldn't have been able to do this had I not been open-minded to new ideas. So I am open to new ideas, but they have to be ideas that make some sense.

[/quote']

pnattmbtc is one of the most reasonable and thoughtful people posting here at club adventist. Don't confuse his careful consideration of what you post with an unwillingness to hear what you say.

Sometimes reason can take the place of prayer, that is always dangerous.

I have presented this simple truth to so many people.

Some get it, some do not.

Some eventually get it.

But those that struggle with it the most, are those that think the "mind" is it, those that are full of "intellectual assent".

They usually take great pleasure in Daniel and Revelation and all things "logical".

I am pushing pnat here, because I am sensing the same problem.

-------------------

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, I learned this the hard way.

When Sky first presented to me the "merits of Christ" it made no sense to me.

I thought I understood it, but when I really sat down and thought about it, I did not understand it.

It took me days of prayer, then the Lord switched it on in my mind.

Until that happened, I was helpless.

--------------------

If we make an idol of intellect, we will never learn anything truly spiritual.

This is what I am challenging with Pnat.

I am suspecting this is his blockage here.

None of us should dismiss any potential truth, unless the Lord points out it is error.

Sometimes we mistake the leading of the intellect with the leading of the Holy Spirit...

And we cannot hear the leading of the Holy Spirit because of it.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

There seemed however to be some sort of mental blockage on this idea, that in your thinking there is no other option than the mind being the heart.

[pnattmbtc]

I wrote a response to your post previous to this one, but apparently didn't post it, so it must be on my other computer. I'll try to post it tomorrow.

What is it you want me to present.

Jesus speaks of the heart, continually, as a source of thought.

Now you accept this, I understand.

[Steve Billiter]

This is not rocket science. The heart simply has different meanings for the mind pertaining to various levels of attachments. If I put all of my heart (and soul even) into the Sabbath, then I would rather die than work on it. My attitude and conviction is such that His law is written in my mind.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Sounds like the mind and the heart are the same.

A New Life in Christ Shows

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." Joh_3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. (SC, Chap. 7)

[Twilight]

I don't think this makes sense. You're saying the heart is a source of thought? Thought means "the action or process of thinking." This is what you mean?

Jesus taught that out of the "heart" the thoughts arise.

In other words, out of our desires and inclinations, which are produced by the heart, our thoughts are driven.

When one studies this out prayerfully, they would see this in Jesus' teaching.

There's an English word for mind, as well as a word for heart. We commonly say things like, "I love you with all my heart." We don't have the blood-pumping muscle in mind when we say this. Why would you think the Greek word would be used any differently?

Again, you are applying the way you use the English concept of mind and heart back into the Greek, as if this is the only way it can be applied.

No, I never said this. Why do you think my argument is something I never said?

If you are saying that the word "heart" is just another expression of a faculty of the mind, then you are indeed saying they are the same thing.

I've never said the mind is the heart. I disagree that the heart is referring to the blood-pumping muscle, however.

Then please clarify your position here, it is no use telling someone what you do not mean, without telling them what you mean...

I haven't denied this. There seems to be a blockage to the idea that a thing need not be literal to be true.

Then please explain your objection to the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in the heart, as the scripture plainly says.

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175-176)

This is what I believe is involved in the new birth. I believe this encompasses the two fundamental aspects you referenced.

Please read this with the literal interpretation I am suggesting and explain to me how anything I have said has broken the above.

Please show me, where what I have said disagrees with this portion above in any way.

Me neither. I can explain why taking things literally doesn't make sense, but if you choose to believe things you say you don't understand, but believe them simply because, apparently, that's what you think God wants you to do, all I can do is suggest that maybe God doesn't want us to believe things that are illogical.

But that would assume that one has the right to define what is "logical" here?

Is it illogical to assume that God has given us a physical heart that has emotional function?

That this seat or our desires and inclinations is the part He changes first in the New Birth?

Why is that illogical?

It is illogical to assume that God "could not" or "would not" create us this way.

If God can create a mind to reason, why cannot He create a "heart" with desire and inclination?

What exactly is it in the design of that you think that God could not achieve logically.

Your argument here, is the same as an atheists.

It assumes that your position is the "logical" one and does not actually explain why, but just "claims" it as the correct position.

This is a dangerous way to think.

This reminds me of the following quote:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.(CG 446)

It sounds like you're wanting the Holy Spirit to communicate to me in some other way than we're told that God communicates to us.

No, I am asking you to go to the Bible first and establish your doctrine.

A quote from Ellen White, based on probably a partial awareness of the functions of the "brain nerves" of her time, is not reason to deny the function of the heart.

Like I have stated before, the same "brain nerves" that are in the brain are also found in the heart.

So this does not in any way contradict what I have said.

The only way this does contradict, is if you assume that the "brain" is the only place where these nerves are.

Which we now know is scientifically incorrect.

Ellen White may also have been quoting scientific data of her time and it may not have been direct revelation from God.

So I have to go back to Jesus' teachings and make that the base of operations.

Not one quote from Ellen White, that does not disprove the point anyway...

It is sometimes so tiring when Adventists try to build a doctrine on a quote from Ellen White...

Quote:

All spiritual truth has to be revealed by the Holy Spirit, we can gain intellectual knowledge, but this is not the same, as spiritual knowledge.

I agree with this, but both intellectual knowledge and spiritual knowledge involve the mind, the only means by which heaven communicates with us.

We do not agree.

Because it involves the mind and the heart.

Not just the mind.

I hope this answers your question.

As to the heart transplant question.

The only reason a heart transplant is possible is because of its own "brain" function...

So your argument has not taken that into consideration it seems?

I also hope that you can now reason through some of the things I have said, a constant charge of "no reasoning" on my part is not strictly true.

It might be fairer to say, that you do not agree with my reasoning perhaps?

Please remember, I am not taking issue with you, just your logic and argument.

I still respect you as a brother in Christ and assure you I have not ill intentions towards you or indeed no intentions to exalt myself.

This is a simple beautiful truth, that will really open up the abiding experience in Christ if appropriated.

This is not to say you do not have one, but to say, it will be deepened.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

This is not rocket science. The heart simply has different meanings for the mind pertaining to various levels of attachments. If I put all of my heart (and soul even) into the Sabbath, then I would rather die than work on it. My attitude and conviction is such that His law is written in my mind.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Sounds like the mind and the heart are the same.

A New Life in Christ Shows

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." Joh_3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. (SC, Chap. 7)

You are making the same assumption as Pnat did Steve.

Like I said to him, please consider my points prayerfull with the Lord.

You may be surprised what comes back.

So many say that heart means mind.

But they can never justify it from scripture.

Heart does not mean mind in the Greek.

It never has done and it never will.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:I don't think this makes sense. You're saying the heart is a source of thought? Thought means "the action or process of thinking." This is what you mean?

Jesus taught that out of the "heart" the thoughts arise.

T:In other words, out of our desires and inclinations, which are produced by the heart, our thoughts are driven.

When one studies this out prayerfully, they would see this in Jesus' teaching.

Do you disagree with the idea that thoughts come from the brain? If the brain produces thoughts, and thoughts arise from the heart, it should be easy to see that the "heart" is dealing with activity which is produced by the brain. Remove a person's brain, and he has no heart.

Quote:

p:There's an English word for mind, as well as a word for heart. We commonly say things like, "I love you with all my heart." We don't have the blood-pumping muscle in mind when we say this. Why would you think the Greek word would be used any differently?

T:Again, you are applying the way you use the English concept of mind and heart back into the Greek, as if this is the only way it can be applied.

No, I'm providing an example of how the words "heart" and "mind" are used, showing that because one says "heart" does not mean that the word cannot indicate a function of the mind.

Similar logic applies to "kidneys."

A far more rational idea than that the center for our affections is literally in the kidneys is that we understand more about human physiology than the Hebrews did. We also know more about cosmology. And mathematics (e.g., we know that pi <> 3).

Quote:

p:No, I never said this. Why do you think my argument is something I never said?

T:If you are saying that the word "heart" is just another expression of a faculty of the mind, then you are indeed saying they are the same thing.

Saying what? It looks like you left out the context.

Quote:

p:I've never said the mind is the heart. I disagree that the heart is referring to the blood-pumping muscle, however.

T:Then please clarify your position here, it is no use telling someone what you do not mean, without telling them what you mean...

I wrote a greatly detailed post as to what I meant, back at the beginning of your first topic.

Quote:

p:I haven't denied this. There seems to be a blockage to the idea that a thing need not be literal to be true.

T:Then please explain your objection to the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in the heart, as the scripture plainly says.

I believe the Scripture. I disagree with you. Remember when Jesus said, "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees" and the disciples replied, "It is because we have no bread." I think this is what you're doing here. You're making a literal interpretation where one is not warranted, as the disciples did. That Jesus did not mean for His words to be taken literally does not mean they are not true. It's not necessary to believe a thing is literal to believe it's true. For example, although I do not believe that Jesus was referring to literal leaven, I believe His words, "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees." Similarly, I can believe the Scriptures which say that the Holy Spirit dwells in the heart without having to believe this is speaking of dwelling as in we dwell in a house or that the heart is referring to a muscle.

Quote:

egw:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175-176)

p:This is what I believe is involved in the new birth. I believe this encompasses the two fundamental aspects you referenced.

T:Please read this with the literal interpretation I am suggesting and explain to me how anything I have said has broken the above.

If you think that the indwelling of the Spirit is speaking of the above, then I agree with that conceptually, but disagree with your understanding of human physiology. If the above describes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to you, that's the important thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

T:Please show me, where what I have said disagrees with this portion above in any way.

I've understood you to say that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is speaking of Him literally dwelling (like living in a house) in our literal heart (the blood-pumping muscle), which would disagree with the above, as the subject matter is different.

Quote:

p:Me neither. I can explain why taking things literally doesn't make sense, but if you choose to believe things you say you don't understand, but believe them simply because, apparently, that's what you think God wants you to do, all I can do is suggest that maybe God doesn't want us to believe things that are illogical.

M:But that would assume that one has the right to define what is "logical" here?

Yes, as per the following:

Quote:

God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense.(3SM 217)

Quote:

T:Is it illogical to assume that God has given us a physical heart that has emotional function?

That this seat or our desires and inclinations is the part He changes first in the New Birth?

Why is that illogical?

Think of the transplant explanation.

Quote:

T:It is illogical to assume that God "could not" or "would not" create us this way.

If God can create a mind to reason, why cannot He create a "heart" with desire and inclination?

What exactly is it in the design of that you think that God could not achieve logically.

Your argument here, is the same as an atheists.

No, it's not. The heart is a muscle. It doesn't think. Take away a man's heart, and he can still think. He still has affections, desires, inclinations, all these things. He can live by a machine, without a heart, and his affections, desires, etc. remain. Take away his brain, and these all go away.

Quote:

T:It assumes that your position is the "logical" one and does not actually explain why, but just "claims" it as the correct position.

This is a dangerous way to think.

It would be dangerous if true, but it's not, as I am not simply making claims, but presenting evidence.

Quote:

p:This reminds me of the following quote:

egw:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.(CG 446)

p:It sounds like you're wanting the Holy Spirit to communicate to me in some other way than we're told that God communicates to us.

T:No, I am asking you to go to the Bible first and establish your doctrine.

A quote from Ellen White, based on probably a partial awareness of the functions of the "brain nerves" of her time, is not reason to deny the function of the heart.

So you think the Hebrews were better informed as to human physiology than Ellen White? This is an amazing idea to me. You don't think the science of physiology of 19th century America was advanced from that of 2nd Millenium B.C. Isarael?

Quote:

T:Like I have stated before, the same "brain nerves" that are in the brain are also found in the heart.

And the kidneys, right?

Quote:

So this does not in any way contradict what I have said.

It's hard to believe you think this is a serious argument. She says the only way that heaven can communicate with man is by means of the nerves of the brain, and your answer is that the "nerves of the brain" is referring to the heart (and kidneys too, I presume). Given this, I don't think it's possible she *could* have written anything you thought contradicted your idea.

Quote:

The only way this does contradict, is if you assume that the "brain" is the only place where these nerves are.

Yes, the nerves of the brain are only in the brain. The nerves of the eye are only in the eye. The nerves of the foot are only in the foot. The heart has nerves, but they are not brain nerves. They are heart nerves.

Ellen White's argument is simple. Her argument is that the only way that heaven communicates with man is through the brain, so it's important that we take care of our health, so that our minds are clear; otherwise we cut of the channel by which God communicates to us.

(more later)