The Holy Spirit, dwelling within...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Mark

I would actually go further and say the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is salvational.

If someone does not experience this, then they are still under the "old covenant".

They are still being "led" to a salvational relationship, but are not in fact there yet.

This is how serious this teaching is.

This still doesn't say what it means. This lets us know that it's important, but not what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Originally Posted By: John317

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Thanks for the Scripture references. I also wanted to ask a question in relation to demon possession and being in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Do you see a difference?

JOHN317: Yes, a big difference. One is God and the other are evil spirits. Both, however, are spiritual beings, and both come into us if we invite them. The evil spirits come into people when they give them their permission to take over. By His personal representative, the Holy Spirit, Jesus also comes into us. See Rev. 3: 20 where Jesus says He will come in to us if we will open the door and invite Him in.

PNATTMBTC: What do you think it means when a spiritual being comes into us? So far I've seen you say that for the Holy Spirit to be in us means that "He is really in our lives." This is the only thing I've see so far which is simply a repetition of the phrase (substituting "live" for "dwell" is just a repetition).

If you could amplify your thought here, that would be great.

Applying the meaning to demons we would have the definition of a demon being us meaning "the demon is really in our lives." Similarly, in regards to Christ, we would have that "Christ is really in our lives." I think this is a good start, but needs to be fleshed out a bit.

Regarding my explaining what the phrase means, perhaps I'll do so tomorrow, but I'd really like either Mark or Richard saying something about what they think it means, and also if you could flesh out what you wrote a bit, I'd like that to.

I noticed about 6 years ago I think in myself that I would use certain religious phrases without really thinking about what the phrase really meant. When explaining that phrase, I would use another one, and sort of run into a circle of religious phrases, none of which meant anything, all explaining the others.

If we understand a concept, we should be able to explain it to a child. How would you explain "the Holy Spirit dwells within you" to a child? Again, I think "the Holy Spirit is really in our lives" is a good start. A child could understand that. But is there anything more you could say?

I am beginning to notice something Pnat.

And if it is true, then you have not yet entered into the full gift of the Holy Spirit.

You have said:

What do you think it means when a spiritual being comes into us? So far I've seen you say that for the Holy Spirit to be in us means that "He is really in our lives."

I am inferring from this that you think it means that He is "with us".

Now notice the original text.

Jesus made two comparisons.

He said the Holy Spirit is "with us" and WILL be "in us".

So if you are presenting the position of "with us", you are still in a pre-pentecost experience.

Please clarify if my inferring is correct or incorrect. :-)

I don't know what you mean by the Holy Spirit is "in" us. I've asked this over and over again and not gotten an answer. You just repeat it, but don't explain it.

I've asked John how he would explain the concept to a child, but he declined. I'll ask you the same question, if you wish to answer it.

The Holy Spirit dwells within the physical human body.

God initially speaks to the individual through the conscience, but then leads them into the experience of dwelling within.

I think you have these two mixed up, because you do not allow the second.

I am not sure how you could not understand the concept of the Holy Spirit dwelling within?

Or why you would need it explaining, unless your own beliefs were so averse to this, that your mind would not accept it...?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

This still doesn't say what it means. This lets us know that it's important, but not what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Originally Posted By: John317

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Thanks for the Scripture references. I also wanted to ask a question in relation to demon possession and being in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Do you see a difference?

Yes, a big difference. One is God and the other are evil spirits. Both, however, are spiritual beings, and both come into us if we invite them. The evil spirits come into people when they give them their permission to take over. By His personal representative, the Holy Spirit, Jesus also comes into us. See Rev. 3: 20 where Jesus says He will come in to us if we will open the door and invite Him in.

What do you think it means when a spiritual being comes into us? So far I've seen you say that for the Holy Spirit to be in us means that "He is really in our lives." This is the only thing I've see so far which is simply a repetition of the phrase (substituting "live" for "dwell" is just a repetition).

If you could amplify your thought here, that would be great.

Applying the meaning to demons we would have the definition of a demon being us meaning "the demon is really in our lives." Similarly, in regards to Christ, we would have that "Christ is really in our lives." I think this is a good start, but needs to be fleshed out a bit.

Regarding my explaining what the phrase means, perhaps I'll do so tomorrow, but I'd really like either Mark or Richard saying something about what they think it means, and also if you could flesh out what you wrote a bit, I'd like that to.

I noticed about 6 years ago I think in myself that I would use certain religious phrases without really thinking about what the phrase really meant. When explaining that phrase, I would use another one, and sort of run into a circle of religious phrases, none of which meant anything, all explaining the others.

If we understand a concept, we should be able to explain it to a child. How would you explain "the Holy Spirit dwells within you" to a child? Again, I think "the Holy Spirit is really in our lives" is a good start. A child could understand that. But is there anything more you could say?

I am beginning to notice something Pnat.

And if it is true, then you have not yet entered into the full gift of the Holy Spirit.

You have said:

What do you think it means when a spiritual being comes into us? So far I've seen you say that for the Holy Spirit to be in us means that "He is really in our lives."

I am inferring from this that you think it means that He is "with us".

Now notice the original text.

Jesus made two comparisons.

He said the Holy Spirit is "with us" and WILL be "in us".

So if you are presenting the position of "with us", you are still in a pre-pentecost experience.

Please clarify if my inferring is correct or incorrect. :-)

I don't know what you mean by the Holy Spirit is "in" us. I've asked this over and over again and not gotten an answer. You just repeat it, but don't explain it.

I've asked John how he would explain the concept to a child, but he declined. I'll ask you the same question, if you wish to answer it. [/quote']

I have the Holy Spirit within me but I cannot see Him. It is not so much an emotional or euphoric experience, but it i a change in attitude, a peace that passes all understanding. We can quench the Spirit by sin and by neglect of spiritual matters. Someone, Mark I think, seemed to suggest the Holy Spirit is new covenant only, but that would be incorrect.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Was the prayer of David as he repented from his sins.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

The promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit is the New Covenant promise Steve.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Here's a statement which helps to understand the concept of the Holy Spirit dwelling within:

Quote:

The Comforter is called "the Spirit of truth." His work is to define and maintain the truth. He first dwells in the heart as the Spirit of truth, and thus He becomes the Comforter.

There is comfort and peace in the truth, but no real peace or comfort can be found in falsehood. It is through false theories and traditions that Satan gains his power over the mind. By directing men to false standards, he misshapes the character. Through the Scriptures the Holy Spirit speaks to the mind, and impresses truth upon the heart. Thus He exposes error, and expels it from the soul. It is by the Spirit of truth, working through the word of God, that Christ subdues His chosen people to Himself. (DA 671)

First, let's remember that the only means of communication between God and man is the mind. So the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is dealing with His influence upon the mind.

Actually, you have completely misread the quote here Pnat.

Through the Scriptures the Holy Spirit speaks to the mind, and impresses truth upon the heart.

It is the heart and mind that receives truth, not just the mind.

Ellen White makes the clear distinction here.

Again, however, you are using quotes that deal with how the Holy Spirit communes with us, not how He dwells in us.

--------------------

You are also still representing the Pre-pentecost experience here, as the Post-pentecost experience.

Please read the following text again and you will see there are "two" experiences that Jesus points out:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Some statements from SOP about where the Holy Spirit dwells:

While Christ is dwelling in the heart by his Spirit, it is impossible for the light of his presence to be concealed or to grow dim. On the contrary, it will grow brighter and brighter, as day by day the mists of selfishness and sin that envelop the soul are dispelled by the bright beams of the Sun of righteousness. {ST, October 20, 1887 par. 3}

God gave his best gift to the world, and whosoever has the attributes of God will love his fellow-men with the same love wherewith God has loved him. The Spirit of God dwelling in the heart will be manifested in love to others. {RH, December 18, 1894 par. 3}

; but if Jesus lives in the heart, the spirit dwelling in him will be revealed in us;

The Spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling within the heart of the true teacher of truth, will lead him to express in words and character the gentleness of Christ.

We can also show this plainly from scripture.

These statements deal with the presence and location of the indwelling Spirit.

Whereas the quotes Pnat has supplied has dealt with "how" the Holy Spirit communes with us.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

why thank you' date=' but why do you feel it addresses the points i was thinking about?

perhaps if you tell me what you think i said, we can see if it is what i said. [/quote']

I must confess I do not know what you were thinking about, but I do know what you wrote. I believe it would be a good book for you to read. It would probably answer some of your questions about the topic if what you wrote is any indication of what you were thinking about at the time you were writing. This book and the others the author wrote directly addresses the issue of how Satan takes possession of people and how they can be free by the power of Christ. It has been a help to many hundreds of people.

john, you seem to rely on others study and thoughts an awful lot.....

[teresaq]

Regarding what it means to say that "the Holy Spirit dwells in me," here is the key principle:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind. (Child Guidance 446)

I'll write in more detail as I have time later one, but the key principle is that heaven communicates with us through the mind, and only through the mind. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit has to do with the mind.

yes, ive come across this and similar statements, hence my inability to believe any being is able to literally crawl inside another being, or tree, or rock, etc.

she certainly was way ahead of her time!! it had to be God communicating with her to come up with what she comes up with!!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i cant agree with this conclusion.

we have been counseled against taking a single verse for our "dogma" disregarding other verses that would explain and enlighten us. [/quote']There are plenty of other verses, but we should not "run away" from this one, until we have established whether it is literal or figurative.

this doesnt make much sense to me. why should we study this verse apart from others that would explain it?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus said that demons "enter" people's bodies and "dwell" in them. Jesus also said that evil spirits "go out of a man." Luke 11: 24, 26. This is literal. We do not know why they do it, but we know that they do it. That is what it means to be demon-possessed. Notice that Acts 19: 16 says that the evil spirit was "in" the man. See also Mark 1: 23-26; Matt. 8: 28-33.

If people don't want to believe that the Bible is speaking literally when it says that the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, that is their right to believe it means whatever they choose to believe. But there is no reason not to believe that the Bible means exactly what it says, that the Holy Spirit "dwells with you and will be in you." John 14: 17. Through their personal representative, the Holy Spirit, both the Father and Christ make their home with those who love Christ and keep His word. John 14: 23.

I would actually go further and say the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is salvational.

If someone does not experience this, then they are still under the "old covenant".

They are still being "led" to a salvational relationship, but are not in fact there yet.

This is how serious this teaching is.

so you understand it to mean that the HS has to literally be inside you somehow, as opposed to any other understanding of how the HS works, or a person can not be "saved"? is that what you are saying?

[teresaq]

As if you are holding to error and do not reveal it, no one can address your point.

this is interesting. it appears you have already decided that if any hold to another view other than the one you have come up with, they are then in error. is that what you are saying?

[teresaq]

He said the Holy Spirit is "with us" and WILL be "in us".

how do you feel about studying the original word for in and see if there are other ways it could have been translated?

and if there are other ways to understand what Christ meant are you adverse to considering them?

G1722 en

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

i see a few alternate meanings that would give a much better idea of what Christ meant....

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Interesting...

So you have founded the whole concept of the Holy Spirit dwelling within on this one statement from SOP?

No, I looked at many statements. Why would you think this? Odd.

Quote:

Have you considered what the Bible says first...?

Why, it doesn't agree with what I quoted?

Quote:

We also have to consider the very nerves you mention also exist in the heart (we know this scientifically).

Why do we have to "also" consider this? Was Ellen White wrong in saying the only means by which heaven can communicate is through the mind?

Where in the scripture do you find the idea that "heart" means "mind"?

I have heard so many adventists state this, but have never been given one scripture reference to support this.

Heart means heart my friend.

[Guest]

Quote:

i see a few alternate meanings that would give a much better idea of what Christ meant....

How do you know which one is better, are you the one who knows what Christ meant?

[teresaq]

Here's a statement which helps to understand the concept of the Holy Spirit dwelling within:

Quote:

The Comforter is called "the Spirit of truth." His work is to define and maintain the truth. He first dwells in the heart as the Spirit of truth, and thus He becomes the Comforter.

There is comfort and peace in the truth, but no real peace or comfort can be found in falsehood. It is through false theories and traditions that Satan gains his power over the mind. By directing men to false standards, he misshapes the character. Through the Scriptures the Holy Spirit speaks to the mind, and impresses truth upon the heart. Thus He exposes error, and expels it from the soul. It is by the Spirit of truth, working through the word of God, that Christ subdues His chosen people to Himself. (DA 671)

First, let's remember that the only means of communication between God and man is the mind. So the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is dealing with His influence upon the mind.

In this quote we see that "it is through false theories and traditions that Satan gains his power over the mind." Conversely is it by means of the truth that the Holy Spirit gains His influence over the mind.

"Through the Scriptures the Holy Spirit speaks to the mind, and impresses truth upon the heart. Thus He exposes error, and expels it from the soul." This is speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, made clear by her statement earlier that "He first dwells in the heart as the Spirit of truth, and thus He becomes the Comforter. There is comfort and peace in the truth, but no real peace or comfort can be found in falsehood."

Here's another statement which deals with the concept:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.(COL 312)

She could just as well have said, "When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit."

Here's another text, from Scripture, dealing with the same concept.

Quote:

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (Romans 5:1-5)

This speaks of how the love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit. Of course, this isn't dealing with our literal heart, but with our minds. The heart represents the inner part of a man, where he does his deepest thinking, the seat of his will, emotions, and motivations. The idea is that when we are converted, our heart and will becomes united with Christ's. We sense His approval, and the unity between Him and us. This is what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is; His communication with our minds regarding the things of God.

this is a very good post, hence i left it intact.

but i would like to add that the parts i bolded in egws statement would be how the HS "literally" is "in" us.

"through the scriptures" and "working through the word of God". when we meditate on the scriptures to where it becomes part of the life, "eating Christs flesh and drinking His blood" then we could say the HS is "in" us. the word of God, rightly understood and applied, is how the HS is "in" us.

[pnattmbtc]

Some statements from SOP about where the Holy Spirit dwells:

While Christ is dwelling in the heart by his Spirit, it is impossible for the light of his presence to be concealed or to grow dim. On the contrary, it will grow brighter and brighter, as day by day the mists of selfishness and sin that envelop the soul are dispelled by the bright beams of the Sun of righteousness. {ST, October 20, 1887 par. 3}

God gave his best gift to the world, and whosoever has the attributes of God will love his fellow-men with the same love wherewith God has loved him. The Spirit of God dwelling in the heart will be manifested in love to others. {RH, December 18, 1894 par. 3}

; but if Jesus lives in the heart, the spirit dwelling in him will be revealed in us;

The Spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling within the heart of the true teacher of truth, will lead him to express in words and character the gentleness of Christ.

We can also show this plainly from scripture.

These statements deal with the presence and location of the indwelling Spirit.

Whereas the quotes Pnat has supplied has dealt with "how" the Holy Spirit communes with us.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

You are also still representing the Pre-pentecost experience here, as the Post-pentecost experience.

Please read the following text again and you will see there are "two" experiences that Jesus points out:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[teresaq]

Some statements from SOP about where the Holy Spirit dwells:

While Christ is dwelling in the heart by his Spirit, it is impossible for the light of his presence to be concealed or to grow dim. {ST, October 20, 1887 par. 3}

The Spirit of God dwelling in the heart will be manifested in love to others. {RH, December 18, 1894 par. 3}

; but if Jesus lives in the heart, the spirit dwelling in him will be revealed in us;

The Spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling within the heart of the true teacher of truth,

These statements deal with the presence and location of the indwelling Spirit.

Whereas the quotes Pnat has supplied has dealt with "how" the Holy Spirit communes with us.

[Guest]

If the Holy Sprit didn't dwell there, then it wouldn't matter what you put in your body.

1Co 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

[teresaq]

Quote:

i see a few alternate meanings that would give a much better idea of what Christ meant....

How do you know which one is better, are you the one who knows what Christ meant?

[John317]

I don't know what you mean by the Holy Spirit is "in" us. I've asked this over and over again and not gotten an answer. You just repeat it, but don't explain it.

I've asked John how he would explain the concept to a child, but he declined. I'll ask you the same question, if you wish to answer it.

I didn't decline. I didn't even see the question. That happens on the Forum, which is the reason that just because people don't respond shouldn't be understood to mean they can't or won't. It may mean they had to leave their computer for a while or didn't see our post to them.

The Holy Spirit surely had a good reason to inspire the writers of the Bible to use the word for "in us." We have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Holy Spirit, believing that this was deliberate and that it communicates clearly what God wants us to know about the Holy Spirit.

The Greek preposition translated "in" is "en." The root meaning of it is "within."

Depending on its context, "en" can be translated as "within" "in" (Matt. 2: 5), "during" (Matt. 2: 1), "as" (Luke 8: 5), "into" (John 3: 35), "on" or "upon" (Matt. 12: 2), "at" (Matt. 8: 6), "among" or "with" (Acts 1: 17), "among" (Matt. 9: 35; 16: 7, 8), "besides" (Luke 16: 26, Critical Text, not the TR), "with" or "by means of" (Rev. 6: 8), "by" (Matt. 12: 27), and "because of" or "for" (Gal. 1: 24 ).

For instance, in Acts 1: 17, it means "among us." Here it is referring to Judas as one who was "among" or "with" (not in) the disciples. The Greek is "en hmin."

To be continued very soon--

[teresaq]

If the Holy Sprit didn't dwell there, then it wouldn't matter what you put in your body.

1Co 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If the Holy Sprit didn't dwell there, then it wouldn't matter what you put in your body.

1Co 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

that would seem to be a legitimate argument, on the surface, but is it true?

why wouldnt it matter?

the context

Quote:

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

given the context, how can you say it wouldnt matter?

Ok, maybe it would still matter. But my point is that the text plainly states that your body is a temple for the HS, and that he dwells in you.

1Co 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[teresaq]

The Holy Spirit surely had a good reason to inspire the writers of the Bible to use the word for "in us." We have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Holy Spirit, believing that this was deliberate and that it communicates clearly what God wants us to know about the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

again, the meanings of the word translated "in"

Quote:

G1722 en

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

are you adverse to considering an alternate understanding?

How do you believe "en" in John 14: 17 should be translated?

Here are the only reasonable possibilities:

in you

within you

among you

with you

by you

for you

on you

There can be no doubt that in John 14: 17, the Greek preposition, en, should be translated "within" or "in," and not any of the "alternate understandings."

How do we know this? Because it uses "para" to signify "with you," and we know that Jesus did not mean to say that the Spirit would merely be "among," "by," or "for" His followers. Judas, the traitor whom Jesus called "a devil," was "among" [en] the disciples. Certainly the Holy Spirit is to have a much more intimate and close relationship with us than is implied by "among." That leaves only "in" or "within" as the true significance of Christ's words in their context, and this is the reason that all translations that I know of translate it in this way. I have 67 translations and I don't recall ever seeing the word en translated in John 14: 17 in any other way except "within" or "in."

If you have any Greek Lexicon or translation that gives a different reading, please give the reference.

From A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, p. 106, regarding the use of the preposition en:

Quote:

On the expression en Christo, which occurs one hundred and sixty-four times in Paul's letters, Deissman says, 'There cannot be any doubt that 'Christ in me' means the exalted Christ living in Paul... and Paul is in Christ. Christ, the exalted Christ, is Spirit. Therefore, He can live in Paul and Paul in Him.' This mystic relation is likened to the air that is in us and yet we are in it.

In view of the above evidence, why would anyone choose an "alternate understanding" of the meaning of en in John 14: 17 or in other verses referring to the Holy Spirit's presence in relationship to believers?

[pnattmbtc]

I didn't decline. I didn't even see the question.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

again, the meanings of the word translated "in"

Quote:

G1722 en

A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

are you adverse to considering an alternate understanding?

How do you believe "en" in John 14: 17 should be translated?

Here are the only reasonable possibilities:

in you

within you

among you

with you

by you

for you

on you

There can be no doubt that in John 14: 17, the Greek preposition, en, should be translated "within" or "in," and not any of the "alternate understandings."

How do we know this? Because it uses "para" to signify "with you," and we know that Jesus did not mean to say that the Spirit would merely be "among," "by," or "for" His followers. Judas, the traitor whom Jesus called "a devil," was "among" [en] the disciples. Certainly the Holy Spirit is to have a much more intimate and close relationship with us than is implied by "among." That leaves only "in" or "within" as the true significance of Christ's words in their context, and this is the reason that all translations that I know of translate it in this way.

From A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana and Mantey, p. 106, regarding the use of the preposition en:

Quote:

On the expression en Christo, which occurs one hundred and sixty-four times in Paul's letters, Deissman says, 'There cannot be any doubt that 'Christ in me' means the exalted Christ living in Paul... and Paul is in Christ. Christ, the exalted Christ, is Spirit. Therefore, He can live in Paul and Paul in Him.' This mystic relation is likened to the air that is in us and yet we are in it.

Excellent! Thanks for shining some light on that John.