Is Salvation Conditional?

[Gerr]

Before you respond, please read the following requests.

1. This is testing the waters as a FU to the thread I posted - "Real Bible Study."

2. This is an attempt to have a meaningful discussion & Bible study. If your position is already cast in concrete and have nothing more to learn from others, this thread is not for you.

3. There is to be no name-calling either of persons or of positions. If you cannot resist name-calling, please DO NOT participate in this thread. The moderator of this section will be asked to delete such posts.

4. Every opinion is to be treated with respect no matter how off-the-wall it might appear. Remember the Golden Rule.

Now to the topic at hand.

The subject is so basic that it seems ridiculous to even consider it. However, there has been enough contradictory positions in other threads that I thought this might be a fruitful launching point.

If salvation is NOT conditional, on what evidence?

If salvation IS conditional, what are the conditions?

[Guest]

Conditional? Yes.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[Gerr]

Are you saying salvation is contingent or on condition that we keep the commandments?

[Woody]

Are you saying salvation is contingent or on condition that we keep the commandments?

YOu two are two peas in a pod.

[Guest]

Yes, I am saying that, and so did the prophet.

It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

Let the human agent consider that in any position where God has placed him, he must put entire confidence in God. The righteousness of the unfallen beings of the eternal world, and of the inhabitants of this world fallen because of sin, is conditional upon their faithful obedience to the law of God, which is holy, just, and good. All created beings must derive their life from God. Not one can be, or do good, only as he lives in daily dependence upon God. And not a soul is righteous any longer than he is in vital relation to God, the source of all virtue, of life, of love, of power.

[Guest]

Looks like we have our first name caller, who doesn't care about the rules.

[Stewart (SDA)]

The Bible presents salvation as a conditional thing. Those conditions are sometimes expressed in general terms, other statements are much more specific.

But one of the general statements is given in Jesus' words:

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (Jn 10:9)

Christ is the door. If anyone will enter heaven, then they must enter in through Him.

IF anyone enters in through the Door, then that person "shall be saved".

That, in my view, is the fundamental condition.

Stewart.

[karl]

If salvation is unconditional, your choices are Calvinism or Universalism. But then, if salvation is unconditional you haven't got a choice, do you?

[Guest]

Good point karl.

[Guest]

God's promises are conditional. In order to make it possible for Him to bless us, we must do our part. We cannot expect that all His blessings will come to us naturally, if we fold our hands in inactivity. We are to be laborers together with God. It is our privilege and duty to labor for souls ready to perish.

If you have a knowledge of God and have taken your position under the banner of Prince Emmanuel, remember that you are not to allow yourself to come under the control of the powers of darkness--the fallen angels. You are to keep in mind the promises that pertain to eternal life and godliness, and seek for divine power that is given to enable you to escape everything that would lead you astray. {2SAT 195}

[Guest]

If we desire a place in the world to come, we must bring our will into subjection to the will of God. We must follow the light that shines upon our pathway. . . . {TDG 320.2}

[Woody]

If we desire a place in the world to come, we must bring our will into subjection to the will of God. We must follow the light that shines upon our pathway. . . . {TDG 320.2}

God provides SO much beauty and light. If only we were not so blind to see. If only we would open our hearts to the beauty be places before us.

[Gerr]

Redwood, would you kindly go over the rules again?

[Gerr]

Yes, I am saying that, and so did the prophet.

It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

Let the human agent consider that in any position where God has placed him, he must put entire confidence in God. The righteousness of the unfallen beings of the eternal world, and of the inhabitants of this world fallen because of sin, is conditional upon their faithful obedience to the law of God, which is holy, just, and good. All created beings must derive their life from God. Not one can be, or do good, only as he lives in daily dependence upon God. And not a soul is righteous any longer than he is in vital relation to God, the source of all virtue, of life, of love, of power.

How then can you reconcile this with:

21 But now God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law.

22 We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else.

23 Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God’s glory.

24 The free gift of God’s grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free.

25 God gave him as a sacrifice to pay for sins. So he forgives the sins of those who have faith in his blood. God did all of that to prove that he is fair. Because of his mercy he did not punish people for the sins they had committed before Jesus died for them. Rom 3 NCV

[Guest]

I don't know what translation that is, but I sure wouldn't use it for any kind of serious Bible study. It looks like a paraphrase. But what ever it is, that simply is not what the Bible says. Especially verse 25. Look that up in a real Bible and see what you get. It does not say anything even close to that.

[pnattmbtc]

Personal salvation is conditional, but corporately Christ saved the entire human race. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life."

As to the condition for personal salvation:

Quote:

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[karl]

Personal salvation is conditional, but corporately Christ saved the entire human race. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life."

As to the condition for personal salvation:

Quote:

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you defining salvation as the prevention of death?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes, I am saying that, and so did the prophet.

It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

Let the human agent consider that in any position where God has placed him, he must put entire confidence in God. The righteousness of the unfallen beings of the eternal world, and of the inhabitants of this world fallen because of sin, is conditional upon their faithful obedience to the law of God, which is holy, just, and good. All created beings must derive their life from God. Not one can be, or do good, only as he lives in daily dependence upon God. And not a soul is righteous any longer than he is in vital relation to God, the source of all virtue, of life, of love, of power.

How then can you reconcile this with:

21 But now God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law.

22 We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else.

23 Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God’s glory.

24 The free gift of God’s grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free.

25 God gave him as a sacrifice to pay for sins. So he forgives the sins of those who have faith in his blood. God did all of that to prove that he is fair. Because of his mercy he did not punish people for the sins they had committed before Jesus died for them. Rom 3 NCV

[Robert]

Are you saying salvation is contingent or on condition that we keep the commandments?

Absolutely...that is, for those under law:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Personal salvation is conditional, but corporately Christ saved the entire human race. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life."

As to the condition for personal salvation:

Quote:

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you defining salvation as the prevention of death?

Gal 4:4

[Gerr]

I don't know what translation that is, but I sure wouldn't use it for any kind of serious Bible study. It looks like a paraphrase. But what ever it is, that simply is not what the Bible says. Especially verse 25. Look that up in a real Bible and see what you get. It does not say anything even close to that.

The New Century Version is a translation of God’s Word from the original Hebrew and Greek languages. A previous edition of the complete New Century Version, the International Children’s Bible, was published in 1986.

A Trustworthy Translation

Two basic premises guided the translation process of the New Century Version. The first concern was that the translation be faithful to the manuscripts in the original languages. A team composed of the World Bible Translation Center and fifty additional, highly qualified and experienced Bible scholars and translators was assembled. The team included people with translation experience on such accepted versions as the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, and the New King James Version. The most recent scholarship and the best available Hebrew and Greek texts were used, principally the third edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek text and the latest edition of the Biblia Hebraica, along with the Septuagint.

A Clear Translation

The second concern was to make the language clear enough for anyone to read the Bible and understand it. In maintaining clear language, several guidelines were followed. Vocabulary choice has been based upon The Living Word Vocabulary by Dr. Edgar Dale and Dr. Joseph O’Rourke (Worldbook-Childcraft International, 1981), which is the standard used by the editors of The World Book Encyclopedia to determine appropriate vocabulary. For difficult words that have no simpler synonyms, footnotes, references, and dictionary definitions are provided. Footnotes appear at the bottom of the page and are indicated in the text by an n (for “note”). A dictionary with a topical concordance of words and phrases found throughout the text is located at the back of the Bible.

The Everyday Bible : New Century Version. 2005. Nashville, TN.: Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Here are other translations of the same:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, ESV

20 So it can’t be said that anyone will be made right with God by obeying the law. Not at all! The law makes us more aware of our sin.

21 But now God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law.

22[u[ We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else.

23 Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God’s glory.

24 The free gift of God’s grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free. NIRV

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Are you defining salvation as the prevention of death?

Gal 4:4

I really don't get from Galations 4 that Paul is defining salvation as the corporate (universal) prevention of death. I see a personal salvation there.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 4:4

I really don't get from Galations 4 that Paul is defining salvation as the corporate (universal) prevention of death. I see a personal salvation there.

Really? Christ, by assuming us, was born of woman...was born under law...and took the curse of the law....Where were you? In Him....

[Gerr]

Quote:

gerry, how does the long paragraph contradict the bible verses, as you see it?

Could we try to establish what the Bible says first and then take up EGW/SOP later?

[Gerr]

If you guys want to discuss Galatians, feel free to start another thread.