Is Salvation Conditional?

[wayfinder]

That is exactly what I am saying. Thank god for Paul, because without him and his revelations, no one would be saved.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

is this related to whether salvation is conditional or not.

I think Wayfinder is pointing out that Jesus has a lot to say about the conditions with which we must comply to be His disciples. He seems to think you can be a believer without being a disciple.

I don't think we can be true believers without being disciples.

What do you think?

I think salvation is conditional on faith. Satan knows Jesus is God, but he is not a disciple.

[Robert]

Yep, even the devils believe.

Yes, because they where once in heaven....They know of God...they know there is a God, but they refuse Him as Savior because they believe that their "love of self" is true love....They hate agape....hence they hate God because "God is love"

[wayfinder]

You seem to know them pretty well, Robert. They, the fallen angels, no who God is and what the truth is, but they chose to rebel against God. This rebellion was started by their leader, who convinced them that they had a right to take a stand against the truth and make their own "truth" true. All Lucifer wanted was his own planet to rule and be their god and show that God's way was not the only way. God is waiting for a people to take a stand against the "truth" of the evil one and prove that it is lies. The kingdom of truth is being formed and prepared for the great war against the "truth" of this world. There was war in the heavens and there will be war on this earth and the ruler of the world is preparing his kingdom to prove God wrong, that He is not the God of this world, because there is no one who obeys Him.

Revelation 12:7-8,17 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

These are the ones who obey, they are law keeping, not law breaking.

[Guest]

Wayfinder, we are finally on the same side of an argument. I didn't think it could happen. But if you came to argue with Robert concerning the law, I hope you brought your lunch. Because he honestly believes it was all done at the cross.

[wayfinder]

Richard, I love you man. You do not know how it pains me to be dispute with you, you are a great person and I do not doubt for one minute your commitment and trust to and in the Son of God.

This is a new year, who knows what it will bring....

[Guest]

Amen, love backatcha, and Happy New Year wayf.

[pnattmbtc]

Galatians covers different aspects of salvation.

The reference made Re: Galatians had nothing to do with the subject at hand, but feel free to quote Galatians that has to do with our current discussion.

It actually does have to do with the subject, and very much so. (This is in reference to Gal. 4:4). Waggoner does a wonderful job explaining this in "The Gospel in Galatians." His comments in "The Glad Tidings" on this are also good.

However, if your point was in regards to the discussion on this thread (not being on topic) as opposed to Galatians itself, I could agree with that.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yep, even the devils believe.

Yes, because they where once in heaven....They know of God...they know there is a God, but they refuse Him as Savior because they believe that their "love of self" is true love....They hate agape....hence they hate God because "God is love"

Soooooooo, how is a believer's faith that does not lead to loving obedience any different from the devils who believe but are consigned to destruction?

[Guest]

Good point Gerry!!

[pnattmbtc]

I have found that the vast majority of Christians can tell you volumes of what Paul taught, but very little about what the Son of God taught.

This is an interesting point. Paul actually taught the same thing Jesus did, but did so in a way that is easier to twist than Jesus. So people make Paul to say all sorts of things when, again, he was simply teaching what Christ taught.

[pnattmbtc]

Salvation is conditional: Learn and practice the teachings of the Son of God and you will be set free from sining, because you will know the truth.

This seems a bit backwards. Jesus sets us free from sin, so we can learn and practice His teachings. Isn't it this way?

[pnattmbtc]

It would be against the rules for this topic to quote from Waggoner? Is that right? (I was thinking of quoting from "The Glad Tidings," a Bible Commentary on Galatians, a nice quote which deals with the subject at hand, but don't want to do so if that's contrary to the Bible Study rules).

[teresaq]

It would be against the rules for this topic to quote from Waggoner? Is that right? (I was thinking of quoting from "The Glad Tidings," a Bible Commentary on Galatians, a nice quote which deals with the subject at hand, but don't want to do so if that's contrary to the Bible Study rules).

that applies to the original thoughts forum. i havent seen where it isnt ok here.

[teresaq]

Before you respond, please read the following requests.

1. This is testing the waters as a FU to the thread I posted - "Real Bible Study."

2. This is an attempt to have a meaningful discussion & Bible study. If your position is already cast in concrete and have nothing more to learn from others, this thread is not for you.

Now to the topic at hand.

The subject is so basic that it seems ridiculous to even consider it. However, there has been enough contradictory positions in other threads that I thought this might be a fruitful launching point.

If salvation is NOT conditional, on what evidence?

If salvation IS conditional, what are the conditions?

[teresaq]

Now that we know WHAT must be done, the next question is, "HOW is this to be done?"

[LifeHiscost]

If salvation IS conditional, what are the conditions?

If one is to be saved, one must submit to the Lordship of Christ.

"And you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost north.

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.

Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol (Hades), to the innermost recesses of the pit (the region of the dead)."

Isaiah 14:13-15 AMP

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."James 4:7 KJV

Joy!!

[Robert]

Legalizm, no. Law abiding yes.

But you aren't keeping the law as Christ did....Maybe you are partially obeying, huh? Sorry, the law doesn't accept partial obedience.

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Robert]

who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

These are the ones who obey, they are law keeping, not law breaking.

That's special group (144,000) who will perfectly reflect Christ, yet because they have indwelling sin and their own personal passed sins they are still sinners saved by grace.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

yes, but then were getting off topic.

anyway i was responding to karls post above and just reminding what the topic is supposedly about. [/quote']

Thank you for being the thread police. I sometimes can't keep my thoughts from straying outside the box.

[Steve Billiter]

The conditions for salvation are based on repentance from all sin. That is the only process that will bring us to reconciliation with God.

Saved Through Faith in Jesus

Have we come to the foot of the cross to obtain the free gift of everlasting life? Have we met the conditions our Lord has given us to follow? No other subject is so compelling; no other topic is so important, or so relevant!

“Then let none say that there are no conditions to salvation. There are decided conditions, and everyone is put to the strenuous task of diligently inquiring and searching for the truth from God's word. At the peril of our souls we must know the prescribed conditions given by Him who has given His own life to save us from ruin. We will certainly be lost if we float along with the current of the world, receiving the sayings of men. By our selfish love of ease and by our indolence we endanger our souls and the souls of others. We are to seek earnestly to know what saith the Lord”. {13MR 22.1}

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We must meet His conditions to be born again. repentance is the theme throughout the Bible from the time Adam sacrificed animals, that pointed to Jesus who fulfilled the types and shadows, and then He came preaching repentance.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

So as we are convicted by the Holy Spirit of the need to accept Christ as our Savior:

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

We can choose to accept Him or reject Him. When we accept Christ, we confess our sins and fully turn away from them, (repentance) This could be a several years processes Jesus taught in John 3, no definite time is given.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When we complete these conditions for salvation, we are then converted, born again:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Our whole attitude changes! We then hunger and thirst for righteousness, we begin to have the blessings of the Beatitudes. Here is Ellen White on the beatitudes:

Desire of Ages (page 299)

Without combating their ideas of the kingdom of God, He told them the conditions of entrance therein, leaving them to draw their own conclusions as to its nature. The truths He taught are no less important to us than to the multitude that followed Him. We no less than they need to learn the foundation principles of the kingdom of God. {DA 299.3}

Christ's first words to the people on the mount were words of blessing. Happy are they, He said, who recognize their spiritual poverty, and feel their need of redemption. The gospel is to be preached to the poor. Not to the spiritually proud, those who claim to be rich and in need of nothing, is it revealed, but to those who are humble and contrite. One fountain only has been opened for sin, a fountain for the poor in spirit. {DA 299.4}

So the beatitudes are connected to salvation, we cannot fully have these blessings until we fulfill the conditions for salvation and continue in the process of sanctification.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness." The sense of unworthiness will lead the heart to hunger and thirst for righteousness, and this desire will not be disappointed. Those who make room in their hearts for Jesus will realize His love. All who long to bear the likeness of the character of God shall be satisfied. The Holy Spirit never leaves unassisted the soul who is looking unto Jesus. He takes of the things of Christ and shows them unto him. If the eye is kept fixed on Christ, the work of the Spirit ceases not until the soul is conformed to His image. The pure element of love will expand the soul, giving it a capacity for higher attainments, for increased knowledge of heavenly things, so that it will not rest short of the fullness. "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled." {DA 302.1}

We cannot earn our salvation, it is a free gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. As we are converted, we love the things we used to hate, and hate the things we used to love. We should desire to keep the commandments out of our love for the Savior, and because it is the right thing to do. In addition, we are forming our characters for heaven and there will be no sin there.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The power of the Holy Spirit, and our own choices, will allow us to gain the victory over all sin:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. {GC 425.1}

We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and the just the finishing touch of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. {2T 355.1}

Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Nothing but holiness will prepare you for heaven. It is sincere, experimental piety alone that can give you a pure, elevated character and enable you to enter into the presence of God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable. The heavenly character must be acquired on earth, or it can never be acquired at all. Then begin at once. Flatter not yourself that a time will come when you can make an earnest effort easier than now. Every day increases your distance from God. Prepare for eternity with such zeal as you have not yet manifested. Educate your mind to love the Bible, to love the prayer meeting, to love the hour of meditation, and, above all, the hour when the soul communes with God. Become heavenly-minded if you would unite with the heavenly choir in the mansions above. 276 {CCh 187.1}

Men were taught that it is possible to obey the law of God; that even while living in the midst of the sinful and corrupt, they were able, by the grace of God, to resist temptation, and become pure and holy. They saw in his example the blessedness of such a life; and his translation was an evidence of the truth of his prophecy concerning the hereafter, with its award of joy and glory and immortal life to the obedient, and of condemnation, woe, and death to the transgressor. {PP 88.2}

By faith Enoch "was translated that he should not see death; . . . for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5. In the midst of a world by its iniquity doomed to destruction, Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be "redeemed from the earth" (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ's second advent.(PP. p. 88,89)

So when we receive the final seal of God, as probation closes, Jesus comes to rescue the saints with all of the holy angels!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city.

Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us, "You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in." We all marched in and felt that we had a perfect right in the city. {EW 16.2}

Maranatha! Even so, Lord Jesus, come.

(Steve Billiter)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Before you respond, please read the following requests.

1. This is testing the waters as a FU to the thread I posted - "Real Bible Study."

2. This is an attempt to have a meaningful discussion & Bible study. If your position is already cast in concrete and have nothing more to learn from others, this thread is not for you.

Now to the topic at hand.

The subject is so basic that it seems ridiculous to even consider it. However, there has been enough contradictory positions in other threads that I thought this might be a fruitful launching point.

If salvation is NOT conditional, on what evidence?

If salvation IS conditional, what are the conditions?

at the risk of making some angry, this seems rather contradictory to me.

on the one hand it says "if ones position is already cast in stone" then it says, "it seems ridiculous to even consider it." isnt the topic starters position set?

How could a position be set if you have alternatives? If you have a third or fourth option, please, feel free to bring them to the table.

Quote:

from what i can see it appears just to be starting yet another argument on the same thing being argued about on other threads.

It is inevitable that when people from different backgrounds discuss a certain subject, there will be differing points of view. However, it is/was my hope that we can all bring these different viewpoints, discuss them civilly/respectfully, and hopefully learn from each other and perhaps come to a clearer understanding of the subject. That is, hopefully we are mature enough to acknowledge that perhaps the other person has some insights that we don't have, and that perhaps we might even be big enough to acknowledge we are/have been totally wrong in some of our beliefs. The tone that I have seen/felt in the other threads is that everybody's position seems to be pretty much set in concrete and are just trying to prove the other wrong. I have gotten tired of that. Frankly, I've been tempted many times to just stop responding/participating.

If you find this thread to be no different, then I failed the goal I set, and feel free to ignore it.

[Woody]

This is off topic and perhaps would be better suited for a PM. I would hate to have anyone banned for being off topic and airing personal differences. Stan has asked that we keep to the topics at hand. Let's do our best to follow his instructions. Well ... you guys can risk being banned if you want. But personally I am trying hard to obey the wishes of the owner.

[pnattmbtc]

Waggoner quote:

Quote:

The people of Antioch and Galatia had trusted in Christ for salvation; now there were some who sought to induce them to trust in the flesh. They did not tell them that they were at liberty to sin. Oh, no; they told them that they must keep the law! Yes, they must do it themselves; they must make themselves righteous without Jesus Christ.

For circumcision stood for the keeping of the law. Now the real circumcision was the law written in the heart by the Spirit; but these "false brethren" wished the believers to trust in the outward form of circumcision, as a substitute for the Spirit's work; so that the thing which was given as a sign of righteousness by faith, became only a sign of self-righteousness.

The false brethren would have them circumcised for righteousness and salvation; but Peter said, "Through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we believe to be saved." Just as Paul wrote, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom.10:10. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom.14:23.

Therefore, all the efforts of men to keep the law of God by their own power, no matter how earnest and sincere they may be, can never result in anything but imperfection--sin. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Is.64:6. (The Glad Tidings)

A little later:

Quote:

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and not the power of man. Any teaching that leads men to trust in any object, whether it be an image, a picture, or anything else, or to trust for salvation in any work or effort of their own, even though that effort be directed toward the most praiseworthy object, is a perversion of the truth of the Gospel,--a false gospel.

There are in the church of Christ no "sacraments" that by some sort of magical working confer special grace on the receiver; but there are things that a man who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, and who is thereby justified and saved, may do as an expression of his faith. The only thing in the world that has any efficacy in the way of salvation, is the life of God in Christ.(ibid)

[pnattmbtc]

The condition for salvation is the righteousness of Christ. This righteousness is offered as a free gift, to be received by faith. Possessing the very righteousness of Christ, we have all that the law requires.

As Waggoner pointed out (previous post), "The only thing in the world that has any efficacy in the way of salvation, is the life of God in Christ." We receive this life when we receive Christ. As the SOP puts it:

Quote:

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God... That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law. (MB 78)