Obedience... Subjective and Objective?

[Twilight]

Many present different views on "obedience".

But I thought that we could discuss "subjective" and "objective" obedience in Christ.

What does that mean?

--------------

Subjective:

When someone says "Christ was obedient for me and now I am covered", they are talking about "subjective" obedience.

An obedience that is required by God, but not necessarily required in the individuals personal experience.

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

--------------

Objective:

This position states that the "subjective" benefit of Christ's obedience, also becomes "objective".

In other words, it transfers to the individual as well and is experienced by them as a personal reality, they are now "obedient" personally.

So now the person may say:

"Jesus obedience was subjectively applied to me as my justification. But now it is also appled to me as an "objective" personal experience, as it is brought into my life, this objective obedience is a sign of sanctification."

This is the position that obedience is a fruit of the Christian walk, and has to be seen to evidence true conversion.

---------------

Many disagreements centre around this "objective" obedience.

Many deny it is even needed.

Some then label any reference to "objective" obedience as "legalism" and phariseeism.

---------------

My own view is that "subjective" and "objective" obedience are something Jesus supplied to us as a gift of Grace.

This then removes any charge of legalism.

To brand "all" objective obedience as "legalistic", is to deny the reality of the objective obedience that God gives.

In texts such as this which talks of believers having an "objective personal obedience":

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

---------------

I think much of the arguments around this subject are actually arguments about "objective" obedience.

There are indeed a false and a true example of this:

The false is saying, "I can be obedient objectively".

The true is saying, "Jesus can give me objective obedience and therefore I can be obedient".

---------------

Lots there, but over to you...

Mark

[Steve Billiter]

Many present different views on "obedience".

But I thought that we could discuss "subjective" and "objective" obedience in Christ.

What does that mean?

--------------

Subjective:

When someone says "Christ was obedient for me and now I am covered", they are talking about "subjective" obedience.

An obedience that is required by God, but not necessarily required in the individuals personal experience.

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

--------------

Objective:

This position states that the "subjective" benefit of Christ's obedience, also becomes "objective".

In other words, it transfers to the individual as well and is experienced by them as a personal reality, they are now "obedient" personally.

So now the person may say:

"Jesus obedience was subjectively applied to me as my justification. But now it is also appled to me as an "objective" personal experience, as it is brought into my life, this objective obedience is a sign of sanctification."

This is the position that obedience is a fruit of the Christian walk, and has to be seen to evidence true conversion.

---------------

Many disagreements centre around this "objective" obedience.

Many deny it is even needed.

Some then label any reference to "objective" obedience as "legalism" and phariseeism.

---------------

My own view is that "subjective" and "objective" obedience are something Jesus supplied to us as a gift of Grace.

This then removes any charge of legalism.

To brand "all" objective obedience as "legalistic", is to deny the reality of the objective obedience that God gives.

In texts such as this which talks of believers having an "objective personal obedience":

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

---------------

I think much of the arguments around this subject are actually arguments about "objective" obedience.

There are indeed a false and a true example of this:

The false is saying, "I can be obedient objectively".

The true is saying, "Jesus can give me objective obedience and therefore I can be obedient".

---------------

Lots there, but over to you...

Mark

It does not matter what the different views of obedience are that some present. It only matters what the Bible says.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mark, whats up? You are starting to sound like Jack Sequeria with the same subjective/objective gospel nonsense. We either obey, or we do not, there is no middle ground or spiritualizing away obedience.

Lets not make this complicated. Obedience starts with obeying the gospel, and continues all the way through eternity.

Lets not entangle Christs obedience with ours, we have free will of choice. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White draws objective/subjective parallels for obedience.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Lets keep it simple please!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Many present different views on "obedience".

But I thought that we could discuss "subjective" and "objective" obedience in Christ.

What does that mean?

--------------

Subjective:

When someone says "Christ was obedient for me and now I am covered", they are talking about "subjective" obedience.

An obedience that is required by God, but not necessarily required in the individuals personal experience.

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

--------------

Objective:

This position states that the "subjective" benefit of Christ's obedience, also becomes "objective".

In other words, it transfers to the individual as well and is experienced by them as a personal reality, they are now "obedient" personally.

So now the person may say:

"Jesus obedience was subjectively applied to me as my justification. But now it is also appled to me as an "objective" personal experience, as it is brought into my life, this objective obedience is a sign of sanctification."

This is the position that obedience is a fruit of the Christian walk, and has to be seen to evidence true conversion.

---------------

Many disagreements centre around this "objective" obedience.

Many deny it is even needed.

Some then label any reference to "objective" obedience as "legalism" and phariseeism.

---------------

My own view is that "subjective" and "objective" obedience are something Jesus supplied to us as a gift of Grace.

This then removes any charge of legalism.

To brand "all" objective obedience as "legalistic", is to deny the reality of the objective obedience that God gives.

In texts such as this which talks of believers having an "objective personal obedience":

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

---------------

I think much of the arguments around this subject are actually arguments about "objective" obedience.

There are indeed a false and a true example of this:

The false is saying, "I can be obedient objectively".

The true is saying, "Jesus can give me objective obedience and therefore I can be obedient".

---------------

Lots there, but over to you...

Mark

It does not matter what the different views of obedience are that some present. It only matters what the Bible says.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mark, whats up? You are starting to sound like Jack Sequeria with the same subjective/objective gospel nonsense. We either obey, or we do not, there is no middle ground or spiritualizing away obedience.

Lets not make this complicated. Obedience starts with obeying the gospel, and continues all the way through eternity.

Lets not entangle Christs obedience with ours, we have free will of choice. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White draws objective/subjective parallels for obedience.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Lets keep it simple please!

Steve, I do not feel you have read my post correctly possibly?

There are three main positions:

1. Subjective obedience only.

2. Subjective obedience in Christ and personal obedience in self.

3. Subjective obedience in Christ and personal obedience in Christ.

My own view is that only point 3 is correct.

But we mix up the three in discussions on this board.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

Do you have a reference for this theory?

[Twilight]

Quote:

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

Do you have a reference for this theory?

What would you regard as a valid reference?

[Woody]

Any reference would be a start. And we could go from there.

[Twilight]

Any reference would be a start. And we could go from there.

The opening post?

[Woody]

If you can't give a reference ... just say so.

[Twilight]

Present your own position Redwood, then we can discuss it.

[Woody]

If you can't give a reference then just say so.

[Twilight]

If you can't give a reference ... just say so.

I do not choose to supply a reference, as a reference is not needed for this discussion.

It implies that "someone else" needs to clarify the point for it to be valid.

But I could find one from SOP if you really thought it was neccesary?

[Twilight]

And why do you insist on a reference?

Are you establishing some source of "authority"?

Do you have such a source in mind?

[Woody]

It's good to have a basis of discussion that has some source of reality. Why build a staw man discussion?

[karl]

Lets not make this complicated. Obedience starts with obeying the gospel, and continues all the way through eternity.

Lets not entangle Christs obedience with ours, we have free will of choice. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White draws objective/subjective parallels for obedience.

Oh please please please entangle my obedience with Christ's. Let Christ in me be my only hope of glory. Let me be yoked with Him. Let Christ's prayer in John 17 be true for me and every Christian. Let me be renewed in the inner man according to His will. Let it be God working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. Let it BE!!!

[Guest]

And why do you insist on a reference?

Are you establishing some source of "authority"?

Do you have such a source in mind?

The only thing he has in mind is to impede your progress. And the only way he can be successful, is if you allow it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

And why do you insist on a reference?

Are you establishing some source of "authority"?

Do you have such a source in mind?

The only thing he has in mind is to impede your progress. And the only way he can be successful, is if you allow it.

Hello my friend. :-)

What are your thoughts on the above Richard?

[Musicman1228]

Adam and Eve failed in the Garden because they failed to obey God's command about the Tree of the Learning the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They failed to understand that God meant what He said when He told them that 'in the very day that you eat of it you will be killed.' God told them that if (conditional) they ate of it He would be forced to execute them.

The wages of disobedience is death, no 'if's, and's or but's'.

The idea that Jesus came to earth to obey FOR us is not what Jesus said that He came to accomplish;

Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”  John 18:37.

We demonstrate obedience to God by listening to the words of Jesus Christ and believing in those words only:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:47-51.

The bread here spoken of by Jesus Christ is His words that are put into action by the person who hears them and believes in them. It really is simple; if you believe in Jesus Christ you believe in His words and in the One who sent Him.

So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. John 7:16.

Jesus did not come to earth to make us righteous by our acceptance of His works of righteousness. He came to show us that for us to become righteous as He is we must become obedient as He is. His death paid the penalty for our disobedience and made it possible for that righteousness that we develop through His Spirit to matter.

[pnattmbtc]

The OP seems backwards to me. Subjective obedience is that which we ourselves render. Objective obedience would be the obedience of Christ. This is how I think of it anyway.

To me obedience means the same thing as righteousness. "Righteousness" means "obedience to the law." Righteousness by faith means being obedient to the law by faith. We receive the righteousness of Christ by receiving Him.

The 1888 messengers explained things like this. God's word has the power to do that which is declared, so when the believer is declared righteous, he is made righteous by the power of God's word. God speaks righteousness into the heart where before there was nothing but unrighteousness.

The SOP explains the same process in less technical or theological language here:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176)

[pnattmbtc]

Adam and Eve failed in the Garden because they failed to obey God's command about the Tree of the Learning the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They failed to understand that God meant what He said when He told them that 'in the very day that you eat of it you will be killed.' God told them that if (conditional) they ate of it He would be forced to execute them.

Why would God execute people for eating fruit?

God was warning them of the results of sin. The inevitable result of sin is death, not because God kills those who don't do what He says, but because sin is based on the principle of selfishness, which can only lead to misery and death.

[teresaq]

Quote:

This is the basis for the "once saved, always saved" doctrine.

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Do you have a reference for this theory?

What would you regard as a valid reference?

on what basis do you make this statement, mark? you make a statement and it is quite right to know on what it is based.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Lets not make this complicated. Obedience starts with obeying the gospel, and continues all the way through eternity.

Lets not entangle Christs obedience with ours, we have free will of choice. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White draws objective/subjective parallels for obedience.

Oh please please please entangle my obedience with Christ's. Let Christ in me be my only hope of glory. Let me be yoked with Him. Let Christ's prayer in John 17 be true for me and every Christian. Let me be renewed in the inner man according to His will. Let it be God working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. Let it BE!!!

lol. amen!! and amen!! my brother. that was my reaction also, but i get tired of being "contentious" and "argumentative" with the contentious and argumentative.

[teresaq]

Adam and Eve failed in the Garden because they failed to obey God's command about the Tree of the Learning the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They failed to understand that God meant what He said when He told them that 'in the very day that you eat of it you will be killed.' God told them that if (conditional) they ate of it He would be forced to execute them.

[teresaq]

The OP seems backwards to me. Subjective obedience is that which we ourselves render. Objective obedience would be the obedience of Christ. This is how I think of it anyway.

you are thinking something quite different, but the way you state the bolded part seems to me to be quite accurate and a serious problem for most of us.

we all render "subjective" obedience, meaning obedience according to our subjective understanding, rarely from an objective, or accurate, understanding. spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

[yzgirl]

I been skimming the posts on this forum, I am still confused, but find comfort that I am not the only one. I appreciate Marks attempt to simplify the question on obedience. For years I have struggled to figure out how to obey, I hate me sin. I have tried to be a better person (NOT to earn salvation or because I'm afraid of death)but because I hate my selfishness. I always find (after prayer and surrender) If I do try outwardly to be unselfish, i still am on the inside. I have tried, sitting and begging God (believing he will change me) to change me in particular selfish ways, yet i tend to keep on doing them. I guess if I only cared about making IT TO Heaven, an believed that all i needed was to believe that Jesus is my righteousness then i don't need to fret about it anymore. But dang it I hate my sin in this life. I know God loves me, I really do believe I am saved. But today, today, I hate my sin.

Why is it so hard to understand obedience? Some say u obey this way, some say that way, some say u dont need to obey. Well i want too. Why is it so difficult to understand between Christians who really desire to know? Why don't we who are serious Christians agree? Why is it not SOO obvious even for a dummy like me?

Just sittin here thinkin... maybe if i got it, i would be a better person and would like myself more an not need God to give me victory. So maybe its a blessing my failure, my confusion, because I keep seeking God, my only hope, for answers.

[teresaq]

self-condemning thoughts, i believe, come to all of us, especially the more sincere we are.

i believe they come from satan because it causes us to take our eyes, our attention, off Jesus and puts it on ourself.

another tactic satan is quite succesful at is getting us to focus on how right or wrong others are.

either way we are not studying Christ and becoming like Him.

maybe when those thoughts come, just say, "thank You, Jesus for loving me anyway, and help me to be what You want",? just a thought. :)