Obedience... Subjective and Objective?

[Robert]

It is based on Romans 6:6.

Romans 6:6 is in the past tense....Our humanity was crucified with Christ 2000 years ago. Be honest with the context!

[yzgirl]

There looks like some good reading here, and I appreciate the replies to my earlier post. I plan to reread these posts later in the week, as I work 12 hr. shifts an practice my guitar after work, so I am not my best at the moment, lol. But wanted to say thanks for your replies and I'll defiantly study them.

[karl]

There looks like some good reading here, and I appreciate the replies to my earlier post. I plan to reread these posts later in the week, as I work 12 hr. shifts an practice my guitar after work, so I am not my best at the moment, lol. But wanted to say thanks for your replies and I'll defiantly study them.

No, not defiantly. You'll never get anything out of them that way! :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Mark, how do you keep from frustrating this powerful grace? How do you keep self from taking the reins again?

We have to stand on Romans 6:6.

When we believe that we have been crucified in Christ and set free from the power of sin, we can then walk in that precious fact.

But we either are ignorant of that, or sometimes we believe Satan or the call of sin in our flesh, and we doubt Gods promise.

Does that make sense?

Yeah it makes sense, but it is just head sense. It doesn't really resonate with my heart. It is not experiential. It is a precious fact, to be sure, but it isn't power. I'm looking for a more relationship oriented truth, I think. More in the John 17 genre.

I know the forensic idea puts it all on the cross, but I think it's much more about something being done right now.

[pnattmbtc]

I think what makes it get from the head to heart are things like recognizing:

a)The risk Christ came to save us.

b)The risk the Father took allowing Christ to come and save us.

c)The suffering Christ underwent.

d)The suffering of the Father, as His Son suffered.

As we contemplate what caused Christ's sufferings, and why this was necessary, these themes have power to changes our lives, as our inner being is impacted, wowed as it were, but such love and care for such as we.

For example, a wonderful theme to contemplate is that Christ, hanging on the cross, could not see through the portals of the tomb. Thus He felt that He would be lost forever. But such was His love for us (and since He would have died for just one, we can say "His love for me."), He was willing to be lost forever if that meant that we (I) might be saved. He suffered the death that was ours (a death without hope), that we might live the life that was His.

[karl]

I think what makes it get from the head to heart are things like recognizing:

a)The risk Christ came to save us.

b)The risk the Father took allowing Christ to come and save us.

c)The suffering Christ underwent.

d)The suffering of the Father, as His Son suffered.

As we contemplate what caused Christ's sufferings, and why this was necessary, these themes have power to changes our lives, as our inner being is impacted, wowed as it were, but such love and care for such as we.

For example, a wonderful theme to contemplate is that Christ, hanging on the cross, could not see through the portals of the tomb. Thus He felt that He would be lost forever. But such was His love for us (and since He would have died for just one, we can say "His love for me."), He was willing to be lost forever if that meant that we (I) might be saved. He suffered the death that was ours (a death without hope), that we might live the life that was His.

What do you think about something interactive going on right now between you and Jesus? Are you up for that? I don't deny any of your facts, but as I said, the power isn't in them. It is in Christ.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I think what makes it get from the head to heart are things like recognizing:

a)The risk Christ came to save us.

b)The risk the Father took allowing Christ to come and save us.

c)The suffering Christ underwent.

d)The suffering of the Father, as His Son suffered.

As we contemplate what caused Christ's sufferings, and why this was necessary, these themes have power to changes our lives, as our inner being is impacted, wowed as it were, but such love and care for such as we.

For example, a wonderful theme to contemplate is that Christ, hanging on the cross, could not see through the portals of the tomb. Thus He felt that He would be lost forever. But such was His love for us (and since He would have died for just one, we can say "His love for me."), He was willing to be lost forever if that meant that we (I) might be saved. He suffered the death that was ours (a death without hope), that we might live the life that was His.

What do you think about something interactive going on right now between you and Jesus? Are you up for that? I don't deny any of your facts, but as I said, the power isn't in them. It is in Christ.

if you dont see that as "interactive", what do you see as interactive? dont we have to have a heart first, before anything else?

[pnattmbtc]

What do you think about something interactive going on right now between you and Jesus? Are you up for that? I don't deny any of your facts, but as I said, the power isn't in them. It is in Christ.

I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

What do you think about something interactive going on right now between you and Jesus? Are you up for that? I don't deny any of your facts, but as I said, the power isn't in them. It is in Christ.

I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

Although I don't deny the value of what you have described above, I was thinking of even more heart and less noggin.:

He [Enoch] was of one mind with God. . . . If we are of one mind with God, our will will be swallowed up in God's will, and we shall follow wherever God leads the way. As a loving child places his hand in that of his father, and walks with him in perfect trust whether it is dark or bright, so the sons and daughters of God are to walk with Jesus through joy or sorrow.

As we walk with Jesus in this life, we may be filled with His love, satisfied with His presence.

[Twilight]

Yeah it makes sense, but it is just head sense. It doesn't really resonate with my heart. It is not experiential. It is a precious fact, to be sure, but it isn't power. I'm looking for a more relationship oriented truth, I think. More in the John 17 genre.

I know the forensic idea puts it all on the cross, but I think it's much more about something being done right now.

What was established on the cross was the "fact", the "reality" Karl.

You were crucified in Christ, 2000 years ago.

Self was put to death then.

But now you have to walk in the faith of that fact right now.

You need to "abide" in that truth.

It has to become a living reality, written on your heart by the Holy Spirit, a literal "fact".

You are indeed right to point out it is only "head", only the Holy Spirit can change the heart. That is what "spiritual discernment" is. Many people spend years studying the bible to "find" the truth, when a simple honest hearted prayer to God, would open up so much more...

Only THEN, when it has been written on your heart, can it be reckoned that you are dead to sin and alive unto God.

Because you are "reckoning" from an acomplished fact. :-)

That is the first step to victory.

The next step is so simple yet so profound, but without this first step, the second step cannot work....

[Twilight]

I think what makes it get from the head to heart are things like recognizing:

a)The risk Christ came to save us.

b)The risk the Father took allowing Christ to come and save us.

c)The suffering Christ underwent.

d)The suffering of the Father, as His Son suffered.

As we contemplate what caused Christ's sufferings, and why this was necessary, these themes have power to changes our lives, as our inner being is impacted, wowed as it were, but such love and care for such as we.

For example, a wonderful theme to contemplate is that Christ, hanging on the cross, could not see through the portals of the tomb. Thus He felt that He would be lost forever. But such was His love for us (and since He would have died for just one, we can say "His love for me."), He was willing to be lost forever if that meant that we (I) might be saved. He suffered the death that was ours (a death without hope), that we might live the life that was His.

There is a much simpler way:

Claim Gods promise to change your heart.

Then we can fall in love with Christ, because God has shed His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given unto us.

It is God who changes the heart.

And it is a spiritual miracle He performs through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

What do you think about something interactive going on right now between you and Jesus? Are you up for that? I don't deny any of your facts, but as I said, the power isn't in them. It is in Christ.

I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

This is so wrong!

It is God who changes us.

We do not change ourselves.

We need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's literal presence to perform this.

We are confusing the writing of the Law on our hearts and minds with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit here.

This is "conversion by study" and it is not the gospel.

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

This is so wrong!

It is God who changes us.

We do not change ourselves.

We need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's literal presence to perform this.

We are confusing the writing of the Law on our hearts and minds with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit here.

This is "conversion by study" and it is not the gospel.

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

I have started a new thread, just to discuss this specific point. :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Although I don't deny the value of what you have described above, I was thinking of even more heart and less noggin.

I'm not understanding this. I've been speaking about how the love of God, revealed in different ways, melts our heart, winning us to service to Him. What are you suggesting as an alternative? It seems to me that any alternative that doesn't involve the themes I mentioned above would be indistinguishable from just about any false religion.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

This is so wrong!

It is God who changes us.

We do not change ourselves.

We need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's literal presence to perform this.

We are confusing the writing of the Law on our hearts and minds with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit here.

This is "conversion by study" and it is not the gospel.

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

at the risk of ticking you off yet again, this comes across as a false gospel.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Although I don't deny the value of what you have described above, I was thinking of even more heart and less noggin.

I'm not understanding this. I've been speaking about how the love of God, revealed in different ways, melts our heart, winning us to service to Him. What are you suggesting as an alternative? It seems to me that any alternative that doesn't involve the themes I mentioned above would be indistinguishable from just about any false religion.

I am not suggesting that "feeling" should trump "truth." This is not a false gospel that I am referring to - just a more intimate one.

If I tell an eligible bachelor that a girl is interested in him and I describe her beauty to a "T" as well as detailing all that she has done to appeal to him and get his attention, I have done him a great service.

But there is still no relationship.

[teresaq]

i think we are confused as to how you see "beholding the cross" as not leading to a relationship? or "heart"?

[pnattmbtc]

The things I mentioned are the things which lead us to love and admire God, that motivate us to give ourselves to Him. These are the things upon which our relationship to God are constructed. That and communion with Him.

I think everyone is aware that our relationship with God includes loving Him, and spending time with Him through prayer and the study of His word. I'm a little perplexed as to why you (karl) as seeing this as a point that needs to be emphasized. You mentioned something about your having been a Dragnet Christian in the past. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

[karl]

i think we are confused as to how you see "beholding the cross" as not leading to a relationship? or "heart"?

Am I really this inept at explaining myself?

My point for several sequential posts here has been that "leading to a relationship" is not actually "a relationship."

My walking to the bus is not my actually being on the bus.

My wanting the popsicle you are offering me is not my actually eating the popsicle.

[pnattmbtc]

karl, this is obvious. Why do you think this is a point that needs to be made?

[teresaq]

The things I mentioned are the things which lead us to love and admire God, that motivate us to give ourselves to Him. These are the things upon which our relationship to God are constructed. That and communion with Him.

I think everyone is aware that our relationship with God includes loving Him, and spending time with Him through prayer and the study of His word. I'm a little perplexed as to why you (karl) as seeing this as a point that needs to be emphasized. You mentioned something about your having been a Dragnet Christian in the past. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

actually i think many adventists really are stuck on "doctrines" and formulas, and i think that is what karl may be addressing. the other extreme is being stuck on relationship without bible knowledge. following the spirit without knowing which spirit one is following.

[karl]

karl, this is obvious. Why do you think this is a point that needs to be made?

Knowing about Jesus is not synonymous with knowing Jesus.

It is widely known (by my friend Mark and me) that quite a few people miss this point you say is obvious. I certainly missed it for a long time. Sorry to bore you with the obvious.

[pnattmbtc]

I think that's a good summary teresaq. Karl mentioned formally having been a "Dragnet" Christian ("just the facts") so I'm thinking this has to do with his point. Karl may also be wishing to make the point that knowing God involves more than knowing about Him.

[teresaq]

Knowing about Jesus is not synonymous with knowing Jesus.

It is widely known (by my friend Mark and me) that quite a few people miss this point you say is obvious. I certainly missed it for a long time. Sorry to bore you with the obvious.

there is also a difference between having a relationship with Jesus and having the HS literally inside one, a person. and literally rewiring the heart.

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, looks like I understood you (I posted the same time you were posting, which explains the repetition).