Obedience... Subjective and Objective?

[Twilight]

Quote:

p:I've quoted the following several times as what I believe is a good description of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit entails:

EGW:When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

M:This is the consequence of the indwelling Spirit, not the reality itself.

The "reality itself" is what?

Quote:

p:You're saying He can dwell in us because He's spirit? You mean like air?

Mark:Why would you think the Holy Spirit consists of "air"?

Not "consists of" but "like". I asked you if you are saying He can dwell in us physically because He's like air. It's not think I think the Holy Spirit is like air, but you seem to be attributing to Him air-like characteristics. This is what I'm asking you, because you spoke of His being able to dwell anywhere in your body. I'm trying to ascertain what you mean by that. I explained in detail what I thought that meant, using several paragraphs. I still don't know what you think, so I'm asking.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You are presenting the experience of the Holy Place my friend. Gods influence on our minds through scripture, prayer and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

But we need the "Most Holy Place" experience, if we are to overcome sin. Gods Shekinah Glory dwelling literally in us.

p:This seems rather mystical. Detached from truth, there's no reason why a Buddhist or Hindu (or practitioner of any religion, or not even necessarily a religion) couldn't have this experience.

T:Try "spiritual" rather than mystical. :-)

It seems mystical, as opposed to spiritual, because it's dealing with a mysterious, unexplained physical dwelling, and looks to be detached from the spiritual truths which I believe the sanctuary was designed to teach.

Quote:

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is not the same as the indwelling of Satan, so I do not think your comparison is correct.

If truth is not a factor, I don't see how you could hope to distinguish Satan from the Holy Spirit. How would you do that?

The reality is that the Holy Spirit, literally dwells in the human agent.

Inside.

God is spirit Pnat, if you want to limit the form and function, abilities and essence of the Holy Spirit by defining that He is not able to do this or that, that He is not able to dwell in someone, then you really need a strong argument other than a position of unbelief and incredulity...

You strike me as a man, sitting in a library full of books about Jesus and you keep asking the assistant to pass you a new book.

But you do not realise that the person who is passing the books is Jesus Himself.

You have been caught in an error that denies spiritually reality, because you cannot "quantify it", it seems.

It is about "faith", not head knowledge.

I cannot explain how the Holy Spirit dwells in me, personally individually, but I can tell you by faith, that He does.

Because the Bible said He would.

Now this doctrine, of you "thinking" about Jesus, is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is completely false and will do harm.

People need to know that they have the indwelling of God, that He is with them, in them, willing to guide and lead.

What you are presenting is a formal head knowledge that will save no-one.

Why?

Because it has no "power".

How do I know this?

Because I see so many that live with this "idea", similar to yours, never entering into the blessing of the indwelling of Christ and totally incapable of walking with God and bearing the fruits of the Spirit.

Like you, they do not understand the "mystery" of the Gospel.

God bless,

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Mark

This is simple to test Pnat.

Does your doctrine give you victory over sin?

Or is it something in the future you are attaining to?

This looks like the types of questions the Pharisees asked Christ to try to trap him. How about if I ask you if you are saved. How do you answer? How about if I ask you if you are sanctified? How do you answer that?

If you say "yes, I'm saved," then I could throw COL 155 at you. If you say "I am sanctified" there are a number of references which address that too. If you say "no," then I can say, "Oh, your ideas don't work."

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is what DA 175-176 and COL 312 are saying. I'll quote them again here for your convenience:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176)

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

This works!

This only works when we realise that this part here:

Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

Is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The quotes you have supplied are a "summary", not a detailed explanation.

Hence you not able to perceive the indwelling of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Shekinah Glory came and "dwelt" literally, spiritually and physically inside the Tabernacle.

It was a type Pnat.

You are now that tabernacle.

You are now that temple.

The Shekinah Glory, literally comes and dwells in you, when you receive that promise by faith.

Why would you not want that?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

if i read the commandment, thou shalt not steal, i can mentally agree with it: i shouldnt steal. but if i go on my merry way not meditating on what it means to steal, how indepth and comprehensive it is, then i continue to steal. in meditating on that commandment the Lord helps me to see that stealing doesnt just involve the obvious taking some property of someone else.

Salvation by meditation?

So do I need to meditate on all the ten commandments all the time?

What if I forget to meditate on "thou shalt not kill", will I kill?

[karl]

Consider Jesus as our example. He of all people, could have walked in Gods law in His own will.

Yet He willingly chose to submit Himself to the Fathers leading continually...

The danger is, when we say:

This is your part Lord, but I can take care of this...

This is good, but be aware that there is lurking here the danger of presumption - of conflating your desires with the leading of Christ. (Name it and claim it religion.)

And there are times when God says, "This is your part. I've equipped you for it, so do it."

[Twilight]

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery not clearly revealed, and you will never be able to explain it to others because the Lord has not revealed it to you. You may gather together scriptures and put your construction upon them, but the application is not correct. The expositions by which you sustain your position are not sound. You may lead some to accept your explanations, but you do them no good, nor are they, through accepting your views, enabled to do others good. {14MR 179.1}

It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, "the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name." "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" [John 14:16, 17]. This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. Again Jesus says, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth" [John 16:12, 13]. {14MR 179.2}

There are many mysteries which I do not seek to understand or to explain; they are too high for me, and too high for you. On some of these points, silence is golden. Piety, devotion, sanctification of soul, body, and spirit--this is essential for us all. "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent" [John 17:3]. "This is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life" [John 6:40]. {14MR 179.3}

I was just warning Pnat not to try to define the substance of the Holy Spirit and His nature, this quote now gives that credence.

We should not try to define what the Holy Spirit is made of.

As soon as we start saying "The Holy Spirit" is a little man, or "like air", or trying to imply another believes that, we are on dangerous ground.

The Spirit is spirit, what that is, I do not know.

But I know He dwells in me, literally, because the bible tells me so...

Mark

[karl]

The Shekinah Glory came and "dwelt" literally, spiritually and physically inside the Tabernacle.

It was a type Pnat.

You are now that tabernacle.

You are now that temple.

The Shekinah Glory, literally comes and dwells in you, when you receive that promise by faith.

Why would you not want that?

Mark :-)

Absolutely I want this. Not glowing visibly yet, but people say there are glimmers at times. I don't see it. I see crud.

[pnattmbtc]

M:I was just warning Pnat not to try to define the substance of the Holy Spirit and His nature, this quote now gives that credence.

We should not try to define what the Holy Spirit is made of.

As soon as we start saying "The Holy Spirit" is a little man, or "like air", or trying to imply another believes that, we are on dangerous ground.

The Spirit is spirit, what that is, I do not know.

But I know He dwells in me, literally, because the bible tells me so...

[karl]

Regarding the Shekinah glory dwelling is us, the meaning of this is straight forward. The glory of God is His character. Be beholding Christ, we become transformed into the same image. The sanctuary was a model in miniature of what the human temple can be like when the following takes place:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

This is the John 17 experience, as karl calls it.

Yes. It is truly wonderful and it keeps getting better.

Remember that we live by faith, not by sight. There will be some who claim we can enter into the promised land right now.

It is true we enter into life when we are justified by faith, but you can take this concept too far.

We once had a group that came to our church and almost split it up. They were called the Lord Our Righteousness Church (completely off the deep end these days.) They believed in instant sanctification. It was a snare and the faith of many was sorely tried.

Never think you are farther along in sanctification than you are. It is better to believe you are less far than you are.

It is the narrow road. Always upward. Wait until Jesus welcomes you, in person, inside those giant gates made of a single pearl before you believe you've got it all.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

k:Never think you are farther along in sanctification than you are. It is better to believe you are less far than you are.

This is a problem with a number of ideas I hear; they lead to a focus on self ("navel-gazing"). A wonderful thing about the 1888 message is that it was all about Christ.

Christ is where our focus needs to be. When EGW first heard the 1888 message, she responded, "This is what I've been trying to present for the last 45 years: the matchless charms of Christ."

I really like the following:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

Also this:

Quote:

God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love...

We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness...

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God...That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. (MB 77-78;ellipsis mine)

I love this!

The SOP tells us that God uses many figures to communicate the Plan of Salvation. All minds are not alike. But the same process is being communicated, whether it's by the sanctuary imagery, speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the wearing of Christ's robe of righteousness, being born again, drinking of living water; there a great many of these "figures" as EGW puts it. The point is to get us to understand the process described in these posts above, where our hearts/mind/will/thoughts become united with God's, so that "we live His life."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The Shekinah Glory came and "dwelt" literally, spiritually and physically inside the Tabernacle.

It was a type Pnat.

You are now that tabernacle.

You are now that temple.

The Shekinah Glory, literally comes and dwells in you, when you receive that promise by faith.

Why would you not want that?

Mark :-)

Absolutely I want this. Not glowing visibly yet, but people say there are glimmers at times. I don't see it. I see crud.

I see the glimmer my friend. :-)

The Lord told us to "let our light shine".

If we do not have the Holy Spirit, we have nothing that will shine out of us.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

M:I was just warning Pnat not to try to define the substance of the Holy Spirit and His nature, this quote now gives that credence.

We should not try to define what the Holy Spirit is made of.

As soon as we start saying "The Holy Spirit" is a little man, or "like air", or trying to imply another believes that, we are on dangerous ground.

The Spirit is spirit, what that is, I do not know.

But I know He dwells in me, literally, because the bible tells me so...

I must ask you to be more careful in reading posts. I asked *you* a question if the Holy Spirit dwelt in a person like air. I never claimed He was like air. I understand you to make statements that make Him seem like air, like saying He dwells in body parts. I've made no attempt to characterize His nature, nor made speculative statements in regards to what He does. I've said that He influences the mind. There's certainly nothing incorrect in saying that.

I've asked you what you think this means, but it appears you have no idea what it means. You say you can't explain it, but accept it by faith.

I think this is meaningless. How can believing the Holy Spirit can dwell in body parts be of any spiritual use whatsoever? It can't.

Regarding the Shekinah glory dwelling is us, the meaning of this is straight forward. The glory of God is His character. Be beholding Christ, we become transformed into the same image. The sanctuary was a model in miniature of what the human temple can be like when the following takes place:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

This is the John 17 experience, as karl calls it.

I understand you to make statements that make Him seem like air, like saying He dwells in body parts.

No, that is your own judgement of what I have said.

I have never said the Holy Spirit is "like air", that is something that you have inferred from what I have said.

The Holy Spirit is spirit.

He is not "physical", He is "other".

It seems that you want to set the precedent that God cannot enter into human flesh, (but at the same time allow Him to enter to communicate with your mind - how did He get past the bone of the skull? Or mabye you just believe that we process information with our eyes and their is no spiritual presence in us at all - it is all knowledge?).

By doing so, you define, what the Holy Spirit can and cannot do and therefore define His "limits".

You want me to explain what the Holy Spirit is made of, or how He can dwell in me?

I cannot.

I would not dare.

But I know He dwells in me, because the bible says so.

The bible does not tell me how, it just tells me He does.

Who am I to argue with that?

Regarding the Shekinah glory dwelling is us, the meaning of this is straight forward. The glory of God is His character. Be beholding Christ, we become transformed into the same image. The sanctuary was a model in miniature of what the human temple can be like when the following takes place:

The Shekinah glory was God Himself.

Not His Character...

Why are you so averse to the indwelling of the literal presence of God to guide you and instruct you?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

It seems that you want to set the precedent that God cannot enter into human flesh, (but at the same time allow Him to enter to communicate with your mind - how did He get past the bone of the skull?

[karl]

p:Regarding the Shekinah glory dwelling is us, the meaning of this is straight forward. The glory of God is His character. Be beholding Christ, we become transformed into the same image. The sanctuary was a model in miniature of what the human temple can be like when the following takes place:

M:The Shekinah glory was God Himself.

Not His Character...

Why are you so averse to the indwelling of the literal presence of God to guide you and instruct you?

It's not God's presence that guides, but God Himself. This is a process of communication.

Have you ever had a song get in your head and you're kind of mulling it around for a while before you even know what it is? I was doing that today with the concept above. "Let thy Shekinah glory now shine forth from within." Then I slowly realized it was a hymn and tried to find it. But the melody in my head coincided with "The Church Has One Foundation" and there's nothing about Shekinah glory in that hymn. So I went to Al Gore's creation (internet) and typed in those few words. Up pops the song I'm looking for "Live Out Thy Life Within Me" with the same composer and melody line as "The Church Has One Foundation." The lyricist, Frances Havergal, wrote about the very thing we've been discussing back in the mid 1800's.

Cool song. New favorite.

[pnattmbtc]

She wrote "Take my life and let it be" too, as I recall. There's a story about that. One of the stanzas says "Take my silver, and my gold. Not a mite would I withhold." She was from a wealthy family, and was convicted by her own hymn years after she had written it to sell her jewelry, the proceeds of which went to establishing missions in Kenya.

[karl]

She wrote "Take my life and let it be" too, as I recall. There's a story about that. One of the stanzas says "Take my silver, and my gold. Not a might would I withhold." She was from a wealthy family, and was convicted by her own hymn years after she had written it to sell her jewelry, the proceeds of which went to establishing missions in Kenya.

Wow. Thanks for that bit of history. Always interesting to hear the stories behind songs like "Amazing Grace" and "It Is Well." I'm a songwriter and I don't think I could have done "It Is Well" under those circumstances.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

She wrote "Take my life and let it be" too, as I recall. There's a story about that. One of the stanzas says "Take my silver, and my gold. Not a might would I withhold." She was from a wealthy family, and was convicted by her own hymn years after she had written it to sell her jewelry, the proceeds of which went to establishing missions in Kenya.

Wow. Thanks for that bit of history. Always interesting to hear the stories behind songs like "Amazing Grace" and "It Is Well." I'm a songwriter and I don't think I could have done "It Is Well" under those circumstances.

Yes, that's an amazing story ("It Is Well").

[teresaq]

The Spirit is not flesh and blood, He is "spirit".

He can quite comfortably dwell in us, the scripture is very clear on this.