Obedience... Subjective and Objective?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

If you can't give a reference ... just say so.

I do not choose to supply a reference, as a reference is not needed for this discussion.

It implies that "someone else" needs to clarify the point for it to be valid.

But I could find one from SOP if you really thought it was neccesary?

The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden--perfect obedience to His law.

In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments.

He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

Deu 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if you shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deu 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in its due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, and your wine, and your oil.

Eve really believed the words of Satan, but her belief did not save her from the penalty of sin. She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth.

Notwithstanding the sophistry of Satan to the contrary, it is always disastrous to disobey God. We must set our hearts to know what is truth. All the lessons which God has caused to be placed on record in His word are for our warning and instruction. They are given to save us from deception. Their neglect will result in ruin to ourselves. Whatever contradicts God's word, we may be sure proceeds from Satan. {PP 55.2}

[Steve Billiter]

MARK, works of the law and works of faith may be a better topic than "objective and subjective"

which are not Biblical concepts, but skirt around the issues instead of directly addressing them.

For example since the Bible gives views of both kinds of works, so should we. I fail to see a third distinction. Here are some texts on works of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2Ti 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Woody]

Quote:

So maybe its a blessing my failure, my confusion, because I keep seeking God, my only hope, for answers.

That may be true. For one thing we know for sure ... we will never stop sinning this side of Heaven.

[Robert]

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Lets keep it simple please!

Yes, let's keep it simple and not force the context of one quote to on another.

Obeying the law is obeying rules. Here you are failing.

Obey the gospel is obeying a truth. The truth as it is "in Christ".

[pnattmbtc]

p:The OP seems backwards to me. Subjective obedience is that which we ourselves render. Objective obedience would be the obedience of Christ. This is how I think of it anyway.

t:you are thinking something quite different

[pnattmbtc]

I been skimming the posts on this forum, I am still confused, but find comfort that I am not the only one. I appreciate Marks attempt to simplify the question on obedience. For years I have struggled to figure out how to obey, I hate me sin. I have tried to be a better person (NOT to earn salvation or because I'm afraid of death)but because I hate my selfishness. I always find (after prayer and surrender) If I do try outwardly to be unselfish, i still am on the inside. I have tried, sitting and begging God (believing he will change me) to change me in particular selfish ways, yet i tend to keep on doing them. I guess if I only cared about making IT TO Heaven, an believed that all i needed was to believe that Jesus is my righteousness then i don't need to fret about it anymore. But dang it I hate my sin in this life. I know God loves me, I really do believe I am saved. But today, today, I hate my sin.

Why is it so hard to understand obedience? Some say u obey this way, some say that way, some say u dont need to obey. Well i want too. Why is it so difficult to understand between Christians who really desire to know? Why don't we who are serious Christians agree? Why is it not SOO obvious even for a dummy like me?

Just sittin here thinkin... maybe if i got it, i would be a better person and would like myself more an not need God to give me victory. So maybe its a blessing my failure, my confusion, because I keep seeking God, my only hope, for answers.

Did you see the sermon of A. T. Jones which Richard posted a little while back? It was it's own topic. I'll see if it's still around and bump it for you. I know a number of people have been helped, in relation to the issues you are raising here, by that sermon.

I believe the real key to obedience is having our hearts melted by the love of God as revealed in Christ. As long as our obedience rests on our trying to do right, I think we're liable to feel frustration. But if we are enthralled by the beauty of God's character, so that our desire becomes simply knowing Him better, and sharing Him to others by representing His character (both in word and deed), I think that's the key.

[Twilight]

The OP seems backwards to me. Subjective obedience is that which we ourselves render. Objective obedience would be the obedience of Christ. This is how I think of it anyway.

To me obedience means the same thing as righteousness. "Righteousness" means "obedience to the law." Righteousness by faith means being obedient to the law by faith. We receive the righteousness of Christ by receiving Him.

The 1888 messengers explained things like this. God's word has the power to do that which is declared, so when the believer is declared righteous, he is made righteous by the power of God's word. God speaks righteousness into the heart where before there was nothing but unrighteousness.

The SOP explains the same process in less technical or theological language here:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176)

Yes, sorry all.

I always get these two mixed up.

My mistake.

If anyone is confused, I will repost the op and change it around?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

on what basis do you make this statement, mark? you make a statement and it is quite right to know on what it is based.

Are you also asking for a "source of authority" for this view?

If so, what source would you accept?

There is no point supplying hundreds of sources, if you or Redwood do not accept them.

And as this is a request to authority, you have to point to what is acceptable as authority in your own mind, before it can be met.

[Twilight]

I been skimming the posts on this forum, I am still confused, but find comfort that I am not the only one. I appreciate Marks attempt to simplify the question on obedience. For years I have struggled to figure out how to obey, I hate me sin. I have tried to be a better person (NOT to earn salvation or because I'm afraid of death)but because I hate my selfishness. I always find (after prayer and surrender) If I do try outwardly to be unselfish, i still am on the inside. I have tried, sitting and begging God (believing he will change me) to change me in particular selfish ways, yet i tend to keep on doing them. I guess if I only cared about making IT TO Heaven, an believed that all i needed was to believe that Jesus is my righteousness then i don't need to fret about it anymore. But dang it I hate my sin in this life. I know God loves me, I really do believe I am saved. But today, today, I hate my sin.

Why is it so hard to understand obedience? Some say u obey this way, some say that way, some say u dont need to obey. Well i want too. Why is it so difficult to understand between Christians who really desire to know? Why don't we who are serious Christians agree? Why is it not SOO obvious even for a dummy like me?

Just sittin here thinkin... maybe if i got it, i would be a better person and would like myself more an not need God to give me victory. So maybe its a blessing my failure, my confusion, because I keep seeking God, my only hope, for answers.

First of all, you must understand that obedience is the "normal" state of a Christian.

To be disobedient is "abnormal".

But very few know how to find a "normal" experience, because of some simple fundamental bad teaching they have been exposed to.

God has provided every means for you to take hold of obedience, in Christ.

If you want some help with this, I can post a topic and discuss this.

It will get sidetracked a little of course, but if we stick to the main points, we will be able to see that God does enable us to render obedience to him.

Let me know, and I will post a topic on this for you and run through some of the simple principles.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I do not choose to supply a reference, as a reference is not needed for this discussion.

It implies that "someone else" needs to clarify the point for it to be valid.

But I could find one from SOP if you really thought it was neccesary?

The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden--perfect obedience to His law.

In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments.

He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

Deu 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if you shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deu 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in its due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, and your wine, and your oil.

Eve really believed the words of Satan, but her belief did not save her from the penalty of sin. She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth.

Notwithstanding the sophistry of Satan to the contrary, it is always disastrous to disobey God. We must set our hearts to know what is truth. All the lessons which God has caused to be placed on record in His word are for our warning and instruction. They are given to save us from deception. Their neglect will result in ruin to ourselves. Whatever contradicts God's word, we may be sure proceeds from Satan. {PP 55.2}

Personally I believe that total obedience is possible for the Christian Steve and is a fundamental aspect of the Gospel, displaying the fruits that people have arrived.

I do not want you to be confused about my posts, they all have this ultimate goal in mind, perfect obedience to Gods expressed will.

Mark

[Twilight]

MARK, works of the law and works of faith may be a better topic than "objective and subjective"

which are not Biblical concepts, but skirt around the issues instead of directly addressing them.

For example since the Bible gives views of both kinds of works, so should we. I fail to see a third distinction. Here are some texts on works of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has something in which to boast; but not before God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2Ti 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Sometimes we need to look at things in different ways Steve.

You can express the same thing in many different ways.

Not all minds think alike.

That does not make one way of expressing the same truth better than another, it just makes it a different way.

Mark :-)

[karl]

[

God has provided every means for you to take hold of obedience, in Christ.

If you want some help with this, I can post a topic and discuss this.

It will get sidetracked a little of course, but if we stick to the main points, we will be able to see that God does enable us to render obedience to him.

Mark :-)

Thanks, Mark

God's grace is the power that transforms lives. The "unmerited favor" definition falls so far short of the totality I think it should be discarded, or always accompanied by the rest of the good news.

"There is no excuse for sin, or for indolence. Jesus has led the way, and He wishes us to follow in His steps. He has suffered, He has sacrificed as none of us can, that He might bring salvation within our reach. We need not be discouraged. Jesus came to our world to bring divine power to man, that through His grace, we might be transformed into His likeness." The Signs of the Times , June 16, 1890

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

[

God has provided every means for you to take hold of obedience, in Christ.

If you want some help with this, I can post a topic and discuss this.

It will get sidetracked a little of course, but if we stick to the main points, we will be able to see that God does enable us to render obedience to him.

Mark :-)

Thanks, Mark

God's grace is the power that transforms lives. The "unmerited favor" definition falls so far short of the totality I think it should be discarded, or always accompanied by the rest of the good news.

"There is no excuse for sin, or for indolence. Jesus has led the way, and He wishes us to follow in His steps. He has suffered, He has sacrificed as none of us can, that He might bring salvation within our reach. We need not be discouraged. Jesus came to our world to bring divine power to man, that through His grace, we might be transformed into His likeness." The Signs of the Times , June 16, 1890

Indeed.

Many Christians act as if Grace fails once it gets beyond Justification, that that is all it does and is needed for...

But Grace carries on right through to sanctification and rendered obedience...

[Steve Billiter]

Mark, I understand that, but I have seen many different ways that were much more than the basic differences we all have in the way we see things. If I look at Jack Sequeria's writings, is that merely his own understanding and his interpretation of the truth that lines up well with Bible and EGW? No. Its more than that. Much worse than that. Not only does he make the gospel confusing, its error riddled. He tries to divide the gospel into subjective/ objective, meritorious/ demonstrative. etc.

The whole effect is confusion for the unstudied, uncommitted beliver who gets sucked into error end deception.

[pnattmbtc]

The SOP tells us that many have false ideas when it comes to justification. Justification involves much more than is commonly realized. Waggoner explained this in detail. Here's one place he does so:

Quote:

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled.

The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart. (Christ and His Righteousness)

As an interesting sidelight, according to Froom, the message which comprised "Christ and His Righteousness" were taken from the presentations Waggoner gave at the 1888 General Conference session. These were the presentations of which Ellen White exclaimed that when she heard them, "Every fiber of my heart said, 'Amen!'"

[Steve Billiter]

That sounds good to me Mark, but I'm unclear upon your words and methodology.

[karl]

The SOP tells us that many have false ideas when it comes to justification. Justification involves much more than is commonly realized. Waggoner explained this in detail. Here's one place he does so:

Quote:

But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart. (Christ and His Righteousness)

So, why is it being bandied about that this "in Christ" justification is something that happens forensically without the participation of the individual?

[Twilight]

That sounds good to me Mark, but I'm unclear upon your words and methodology.

It may be that my mix up on the two terms has not helped. :-)

Simply put, three options:

1. Christ supplies obedience so the believer is "justified", but does not need to give the individual "obedience" in their personal experience, as they are "saved at the cross".

2. Christ justifies, then "man" renders obedience of himself, (many Adventists hold this view).

3. Christ justifies and also gives the gift of obedience to the believer.

Some keep mixing up point 2 & 3.

Only point 3 is actually the gospel.

When a man receives the fact that he has been crucified with Christ, then he can receive the fact he has been made obedient with Christ, but that obedience is not something that covers sin, it is something that is in the believer as a living reality, so that the believer does not obey the call of sin, but obeys the call of God.

Mark

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

That sounds good to me Mark, but I'm unclear upon your words and methodology.

It may be that my mix up on the two terms has not helped. :-)

Simply put, three options:

1. Christ supplies obedience so the believer is "justified", but does not need to give the individual "obedience" in their personal experience, as they are "saved at the cross".

2. Christ justifies, then "man" renders obedience of himself, (many Adventists hold this view).

3. Christ justifies and also gives the gift of obedience to the believer.

Some keep mixing up point 2 & 3.

Only point 3 is actually the gospel.

When a man receives the fact that he has been crucified with Christ, then he can receive the fact he has been made obedient with Christ, but that obedience is not something that covers sin, it is something that is in the believer as a living reality, so that the believer does not obey the call of sin, but obeys the call of God.

Mark

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Mark, how do you keep from frustrating this powerful grace? How do you keep self from taking the reins again?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:The SOP tells us that many have false ideas when it comes to justification. Justification involves much more than is commonly realized. Waggoner explained this in detail. Here's one place he does so:

Waggoner:

But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart. (Christ and His Righteousness)

k:So, why is it being bandied about that this "in Christ" justification is something that happens forensically without the participation of the individual?

I think the term "in Christ justification" may be confusing things, especially the use of the word "justification." "In Christ justification" is getting at what Christ did corporately for the human race. EGW talks about this in FW 21, 22 in detail. In a less detailed fashion, she says in DA 660 that "to the death of Jesus Christ we owe even our earthly life" (from memory; this is close).

Another comment from the SOP which discusses this concept is the following:

Quote:

In the matchless gift of His Son, God has encircled the whole world with an atmosphere of grace as real as the air which circulates around the globe. All who choose to breathe this life-giving atmosphere will live and grow up to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus.(SC 68)

This actually brings out both aspects, the corporate and the individual.

To answer your specific question, "why is it being bandied about that this "in Christ" justification is something that happens forensically without the participation of the individual?" I think this comes from misunderstanding what the nature of the problem that confronts humanity is. That being said, there is a legitimate sense in which it can be said that Christ accomplished something for the human race.

As you've pointed out previously, this shouldn't be limited to just the cross. However, as the cross was the apex of the revelation of Christ, of the Plan of Salvation, it stands for the whole plan.

[pnattmbtc]

When a man receives the fact that he has been crucified with Christ, then he can receive the fact he has been made obedient with Christ, but that obedience is not something that covers sin, it is something that is in the believer as a living reality, so that the believer does not obey the call of sin, but obeys the call of God.

This sounds like Waggoner (a good thing).

[Just*]

Obey the gospel is obeying a truth. The truth as it is "in Christ".

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:13-14

In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Ezek 36:27

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:2-3

Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Gen : Gen 26:5

[karl]

I been skimming the posts on this forum, I am still confused, but find comfort that I am not the only one. I appreciate Marks attempt to simplify the question on obedience. For years I have struggled to figure out how to obey, I hate me sin. I have tried to be a better person (NOT to earn salvation or because I'm afraid of death)but because I hate my selfishness. I always find (after prayer and surrender) If I do try outwardly to be unselfish, i still am on the inside. I have tried, sitting and begging God (believing he will change me) to change me in particular selfish ways, yet i tend to keep on doing them. I guess if I only cared about making IT TO Heaven, an believed that all i needed was to believe that Jesus is my righteousness then i don't need to fret about it anymore. But dang it I hate my sin in this life. I know God loves me, I really do believe I am saved. But today, today, I hate my sin.

Why is it so hard to understand obedience? Some say u obey this way, some say that way, some say u dont need to obey. Well i want too. Why is it so difficult to understand between Christians who really desire to know? Why don't we who are serious Christians agree? Why is it not SOO obvious even for a dummy like me?

Just sittin here thinkin... maybe if i got it, i would be a better person and would like myself more an not need God to give me victory. So maybe its a blessing my failure, my confusion, because I keep seeking God, my only hope, for answers.

I like your honesty.

I think maybe this is it. Your post sounds like a lot of the stuff David wrote, and he was a man after God's own heart. You also sound like Paul in Romans 7.

I've finally gotten to the point where I distrust myself so much I don't ever want to think I've arrived.

God keeps us doubting self for a good reason.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It may be that my mix up on the two terms has not helped. :-)

Simply put, three options:

1. Christ supplies obedience so the believer is "justified", but does not need to give the individual "obedience" in their personal experience, as they are "saved at the cross".

2. Christ justifies, then "man" renders obedience of himself, (many Adventists hold this view).

3. Christ justifies and also gives the gift of obedience to the believer.

Some keep mixing up point 2 & 3.

Only point 3 is actually the gospel.

When a man receives the fact that he has been crucified with Christ, then he can receive the fact he has been made obedient with Christ, but that obedience is not something that covers sin, it is something that is in the believer as a living reality, so that the believer does not obey the call of sin, but obeys the call of God.

Mark

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Mark, how do you keep from frustrating this powerful grace? How do you keep self from taking the reins again?

We have to stand on Romans 6:6.

When we believe that we have been crucified in Christ and set free from the power of sin, we can then walk in that precious fact.

But we either are ignorant of that, or sometimes we believe Satan or the call of sin in our flesh, and we doubt Gods promise.

Does that make sense?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When a man receives the fact that he has been crucified with Christ, then he can receive the fact he has been made obedient with Christ, but that obedience is not something that covers sin, it is something that is in the believer as a living reality, so that the believer does not obey the call of sin, but obeys the call of God.

This sounds like Waggoner (a good thing).

It is based on Romans 6:6.

Then followed by Romans 6:11.

Mark :-)