Obedience... Subjective and Objective?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

karl, this is obvious. Why do you think this is a point that needs to be made?

Knowing about Jesus is not synonymous with knowing Jesus.

It is widely known (by my friend Mark and me) that quite a few people miss this point you say is obvious. I certainly missed it for a long time. Sorry to bore you with the obvious.

Tis true.

Some Adventists are miserably inept when it comes to receiving the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, spending most of their time defining "their" beliefs, (usually by pulling others down), and parading them in a logical sequence for all to admire.

Whilst having no love for others, especially their enemies.

The question I would ask someone who thinks they have correct "doctrine" is this:

If your doctrine is correct, then that means you have victory over sin in Christ, do you have victory over sin?

Without Christ, Victory is totally impossible.

But a knowledge of Christ is not the same as "knowing" Christ.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

Knowing about Jesus is not synonymous with knowing Jesus.

It is widely known (by my friend Mark and me) that quite a few people miss this point you say is obvious. I certainly missed it for a long time. Sorry to bore you with the obvious.

there is also a difference between having a relationship with Jesus and having the HS literally inside one, a person. and literally rewiring the heart.

There is indeed.

One will enable one to talk about victory.

One will enable victory, in Christ.

[teresaq]

so, you pretty much dont see any other way for God to enable us to "obey" unless the HS is literally inside a person doing the doing?

[Twilight]

so, you pretty much dont see any other way for God to enable us to "obey" unless the HS is literally inside a person doing the doing?

Absolutely:

Exd 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

We co-operate in a very specific way, we hold our peace...

And God does the fighting.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

so, you pretty much dont see any other way for God to enable us to "obey" unless the HS is literally inside a person doing the doing?

Absolutely:

Exd 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

We co-operate in a very specific way, we hold our peace...

And God does the fighting.

"Lord, show us the Father," said Philip, "and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works." John 14:1-10.

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said that what He say the Father do, He did, and what He heard the Father say, He said. Where did Jesus witness these things? Wasn't it from Scripture?

When Jesus spoke of His being in the Father, and the Father being in Him, isn't it clear He's not speaking literally? If He were speaking literally, Jesus Christ would have to have been literally in heaven, as opposed to being literally on earth, as He, in fact, was.

When Jesus said that the Father did the works, He didn't mean that He (Jesus Christ) was a mindless robot and the Father literally moved Him around like a puppet, but simply that He was doing His Father's will.

[karl]

Jesus said that what He say the Father do, He did, and what He heard the Father say, He said. Where did Jesus witness these things? Wasn't it from Scripture?

When Jesus spoke of His being in the Father, and the Father being in Him, isn't it clear He's not speaking literally? If He were speaking literally, Jesus Christ would have to have been literally in heaven, as opposed to being literally on earth, as He, in fact, was.

When Jesus said that the Father did the works, He didn't mean that He (Jesus Christ) was a mindless robot and the Father literally moved Him around like a puppet, but simply that He was doing His Father's will.

This is just not something even approximated in the interhuman experience. Each of us is going to have to spiritually discern what it means to have the John 17 experience. It is certainly not something we can describe any better than Christ did. The Father that dwelleth in me, He it is that doeth the works.

[pnattmbtc]

Why do you think this isn't even approximated in the interhuman experience? If you're referring to the level of unity between Jesus and the Father, I can agree with that, but if you have in mind our relationship in God in general, there are instances where two human beings are so in harmony, that one can speak for another, and one knows exactly what the other will do. I think this is good approximation of what Jesus Christ had in mind. If the Father dwells in us, and we dwell in the Father, this means we know what the Father is thinking, and what He is doing, and what He wants us to do. It's depicting a union. That's what John 17 is about, unity.

The following by the SOP expresses the concept eloquently I think:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

To my mind, this is describing what John 17 is talking about.

[Twilight]

Jesus said that what He say the Father do, He did, and what He heard the Father say, He said. Where did Jesus witness these things? Wasn't it from Scripture?

When Jesus spoke of His being in the Father, and the Father being in Him, isn't it clear He's not speaking literally? If He were speaking literally, Jesus Christ would have to have been literally in heaven, as opposed to being literally on earth, as He, in fact, was.

When Jesus said that the Father did the works, He didn't mean that He (Jesus Christ) was a mindless robot and the Father literally moved Him around like a puppet, but simply that He was doing His Father's will.

God leads moment by moment.

But He never at any point strips our will from us.

We will forever have our will intact.

We just "agree" with Gods leading.

Whereas some want to do the leading and God follows, the idea of a full submission scares some people, I know it used to scare me...

But I want God to lead me every moment, in every particular.

Mark

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Jesus said that what He say the Father do, He did, and what He heard the Father say, He said. Where did Jesus witness these things? Wasn't it from Scripture?

But I want God to lead me every moment, in every particular.

Mark

The question is sometimes asked, "Why, if we have the truth, do we not see a greater manifestation of the Spirit of God?" God cannot reveal Himself till those who profess to be Christians are doers of His word in their private lives, till there is oneness with Christ, a sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. Then they will be fit temples for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.--Letter 139, 1898, pp. 2, 3, 12. (To A. T. Jones, Dec. 16, 1898.)

[Dr. Rich]

Not sure what you are getting at karl, but Jesus was Michael before being placed into Mary by the Holy Spirit and the Father. It was Jesus/Michael that was leading Israel. So yes, Jesus was with His Father in Heaven and presented to the world what the Father wanted presented.

Jesus is God since "God" is a family name for the Father, Mother (Holy Spirit) and Jesus Christ the Son. If you want to belong to this same family of "God", then you must be born the same way as was Jesus--NOT being adopted as Paul taught. Big difference here!

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

God leads moment by moment.

But He never at any point strips our will from us.

We will forever have our will intact.

We just "agree" with Gods leading.

Whereas some want to do the leading and God follows, the idea of a full submission scares some people, I know it used to scare me...

But I want God to lead me every moment, in every particular.

I mostly agree with this, but I do see one area of concern for me.

Consider the raising of a child. A good parent would not be one who dictated every single thing the child should do, especially once the child becomes of age. Instead, the parent worked to instill values and principles. As long as the child does things which are in harmony with the values and principles which have been taught, the parent wants the child to choose within those boundaries what the child wishes to do. He doesn't want to dictate the child's life for us.

So also God created us with free wills not so He could order us about like robots, but so that we would choose to learn of Him, learning His principles and values, and live according to His will.

Certainly there are times when God has specific instructions for us, such as "go to this house" etc., as we see in Acts, but I think much of the time God's will is that we make our own decisions, but do so in accordance with His values and principles.

[Twilight]

Why do you think this isn't even approximated in the interhuman experience? If you're referring to the level of unity between Jesus and the Father, I can agree with that, but if you have in mind our relationship in God in general, there are instances where two human beings are so in harmony, that one can speak for another, and one knows exactly what the other will do. I think this is good approximation of what Jesus Christ had in mind. If the Father dwells in us, and we dwell in the Father, this means we know what the Father is thinking, and what He is doing, and what He wants us to do. It's depicting a union. That's what John 17 is about, unity.

The following by the SOP expresses the concept eloquently I think:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

To my mind, this is describing what John 17 is talking about.

It is much more than this.

You are presenting a position that "agreement with Christ", that mental assent is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This is error (please clarify if this is not the case).

---------------

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a literal spiritual reality.

The Spirit is not flesh and blood, He is "spirit".

He can quite comfortably dwell in us, the scripture is very clear on this.

This is what the whole sanctuary is trying to teach us.

---------------

You are presenting the experience of the Holy Place my friend. Gods influence on our minds through scripture, prayer and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

But we need the "Most Holy Place" experience, if we are to overcome sin. Gods Shekinah Glory dwelling literally in us.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Mark:It is much more than this.

You are presenting a position that "agreement with Christ", that mental assent is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This is error (please clarify if this is not the case).

I'm quoted the following several times as what I believe is a good description of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit entails:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

Quote:

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a literal spiritual reality.

The Spirit is not flesh and blood, He is "spirit".

He can quite comfortably dwell in us, the scripture is very clear on this.

You're saying He can dwell in us because He's spirit? You mean like air?

But Jesus said He was in the Father, and Jesus is flesh and blood. Also the Scripture teaches that Jesus dwells in us, and, once again, Jesus is flesh and blood. So the Holy Spirit's being spirit doesn't look to be the issue.

Quote:

This is what the whole sanctuary is trying to teach us.

If you're saying the sanctuary is teaching us of God's desire to dwell within us, and what that means, I agree completely with that. I think COL 312 gives a nice description of what that means.

Quote:

You are presenting the experience of the Holy Place my friend. Gods influence on our minds through scripture, prayer and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

But we need the "Most Holy Place" experience, if we are to overcome sin. Gods Shekinah Glory dwelling literally in us.

This seems rather mystical. Detached from truth, there's no reason why a Buddhist or Hindu (or practitioner of any religion, or not even necessarily a religion) couldn't have this experience.

[karl]

We cannot let our light shine out to others, so as to attract their attention to heavenly things, unless we have the light in us. We must be imbued with the Spirit of Jesus Christ, or we cannot manifest to others that Christ is in us the hope of glory. We must have an indwelling Saviour, or we cannot exemplify in our lives his life of devotion, his love, his gentleness, his pity, his compassion, his self-denial, and purity. This is what we earnestly desire. This should be the study of our lives, How shall I conform my character to the Bible standard of holiness? The Review and Herald, March 29, 1870

[karl]

I think this make speak directly to the discussion between Mark and pnattmbtc.

It is not merely the conviction of the mind, it is not the acceptance of a theory, however correct, that can make us Christians. It is the indwelling of Christ in the soul, the development of his spirit in the life. The Christian experience is a constant effort to conform the human will to the will of Christ, and to form the character according to the divine model. The Review and Herald, January 24, 1882

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

We must have an indwelling Saviour, or we cannot exemplify in our lives his life of devotion, his love, his gentleness, his pity, his compassion, his self-denial, and purity. This is what we earnestly desire.

What does this mean?

Quote:

This should be the study of our lives, How shall I conform my character to the Bible standard of holiness?

Ahh!

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

It is not merely the conviction of the mind, it is not the acceptance of a theory, however correct, that can make us Christians. It is the indwelling of Christ in the soul, the development of his spirit in the life. The Christian experience is a constant effort to conform the human will to the will of Christ, and to form the character according to the divine model. The Review and Herald, January 24, 1882

This looks like what I've been saying. It looks a lot like this:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

[Twilight]

I mostly agree with this, but I do see one area of concern for me.

Consider the raising of a child. A good parent would not be one who dictated every single thing the child should do, especially once the child becomes of age. Instead, the parent worked to instill values and principles. As long as the child does things which are in harmony with the values and principles which have been taught, the parent wants the child to choose within those boundaries what the child wishes to do. He doesn't want to dictate the child's life for us.

So also God created us with free wills not so He could order us about like robots, but so that we would choose to learn of Him, learning His principles and values, and live according to His will.

Certainly there are times when God has specific instructions for us, such as "go to this house" etc., as we see in Acts, but I think much of the time God's will is that we make our own decisions, but do so in accordance with His values and principles.

Indeed, we operate under the principles that God has laid down, but we also need to be ready to be led moment by moment.

I do not need the Holy Spirit to tell me not to eat pork.

But I do need Him to enable me to be patient and loving with my brother when that brother disagrees with me...

Consider Jesus as our example. He of all people, could have walked in Gods law in His own will.

Yet He willingly chose to submit Himself to the Fathers leading continually...

The danger is, when we say:

This is your part Lord, but I can take care of this...

[Twilight]

I've quoted the following several times as what I believe is a good description of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit entails:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

[Twilight]

Quote:

We must have an indwelling Saviour, or we cannot exemplify in our lives his life of devotion, his love, his gentleness, his pity, his compassion, his self-denial, and purity. This is what we earnestly desire.

What does this mean?

Quote:

This should be the study of our lives, How shall I conform my character to the Bible standard of holiness?

Ahh!

This is simple to test Pnat.

Does your doctrine give you victory over sin?

Or is it something in the future you are attaining to?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:I've quoted the following several times as what I believe is a good description of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit entails:

EGW:When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

M:This is the consequence of the indwelling Spirit, not the reality itself.

The "reality itself" is what?

Quote:

p:You're saying He can dwell in us because He's spirit? You mean like air?

Mark:Why would you think the Holy Spirit consists of "air"?

Not "consists of" but "like". I asked you if you are saying He can dwell in us physically because He's like air. It's not think I think the Holy Spirit is like air, but you seem to be attributing to Him air-like characteristics. This is what I'm asking you, because you spoke of His being able to dwell anywhere in your body. I'm trying to ascertain what you mean by that. I explained in detail what I thought that meant, using several paragraphs. I still don't know what you think, so I'm asking.

You are presenting the experience of the Holy Place my friend. Gods influence on our minds through scripture, prayer and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

But we need the "Most Holy Place" experience, if we are to overcome sin. Gods Shekinah Glory dwelling literally in us.

p:This seems rather mystical. Detached from truth, there's no reason why a Buddhist or Hindu (or practitioner of any religion, or not even necessarily a religion) couldn't have this experience.

T:Try "spiritual" rather than mystical. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

This is simple to test Pnat.

Does your doctrine give you victory over sin?

Or is it something in the future you are attaining to?

[teresaq]

I think this make speak directly to the discussion between Mark and pnattmbtc.

It is not merely the conviction of the mind, it is not the acceptance of a theory, however correct, that can make us Christians. It is the indwelling of Christ in the soul, the development of his spirit in the life. The Christian experience is a constant effort to conform the human will to the will of Christ, and to form the character according to the divine model. The Review and Herald, January 24, 1882

this is very true and it is explained by the bible/sop to mean, for example, that if i read the commandment, thou shalt not steal, i can mentally agree with it: i shouldnt steal. but if i go on my merry way not meditating on what it means to steal, how indepth and comprehensive it is, then i continue to steal. in meditating on that commandment the Lord helps me to see that stealing doesnt just involve the obvious taking some property of someone else.

i can steal someone elses time by having no regard for if they are busy or overwhelmed and "visiting" anyway.

i can steal someones self-worth by needing to magnify myself.

there are just so many ways that we steal, then there is the commandment thou shalt not kill. there are so many ways to "kill" another bit by bit. which makes all the commandments interrelated and explains what james meant when he said Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

i think that reading what ellen white had to say about kellogs pantheism would help greatly in understanding. just a suggestion. :)

[teresaq]

Quote:

Mark:It is much more than this.

You are presenting a position that "agreement with Christ", that mental assent is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This is error (please clarify if this is not the case).

I'm quoted the following several times as what I believe is a good description of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit entails:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.(COL 312)

Quote:

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a literal spiritual reality.

The Spirit is not flesh and blood, He is "spirit".

He can quite comfortably dwell in us, the scripture is very clear on this.

You're saying He can dwell in us because He's spirit? You mean like air?

But Jesus said He was in the Father, and Jesus is flesh and blood. Also the Scripture teaches that Jesus dwells in us, and, once again, Jesus is flesh and blood. So the Holy Spirit's being spirit doesn't look to be the issue.

Quote:

This is what the whole sanctuary is trying to teach us.

If you're saying the sanctuary is teaching us of God's desire to dwell within us, and what that means, I agree completely with that. I think COL 312 gives a nice description of what that means.

Quote:

You are presenting the experience of the Holy Place my friend. Gods influence on our minds through scripture, prayer and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

But we need the "Most Holy Place" experience, if we are to overcome sin. Gods Shekinah Glory dwelling literally in us.

This seems rather mystical. Detached from truth, there's no reason why a Buddhist or Hindu (or practitioner of any religion, or not even necessarily a religion) couldn't have this experience.

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery not clearly revealed, and you will never be able to explain it to others because the Lord has not revealed it to you. You may gather together scriptures and put your construction upon them, but the application is not correct. The expositions by which you sustain your position are not sound. You may lead some to accept your explanations, but you do them no good, nor are they, through accepting your views, enabled to do others good. {14MR 179.1}

It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, "the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name." "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" [John 14:16, 17]. This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. Again Jesus says, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth" [John 16:12, 13]. {14MR 179.2}

There are many mysteries which I do not seek to understand or to explain; they are too high for me, and too high for you. On some of these points, silence is golden. Piety, devotion, sanctification of soul, body, and spirit--this is essential for us all. "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent" [John 17:3]. "This is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life" [John 6:40]. {14MR 179.3}

A copy of "Living Temple" was sent me, but it remained in my library, unread. From the light given me by the Lord, I knew that some of the sentiments advocated in the book, did not bear the indorsement of God, and that they were a snare that the enemy had prepared for the last days. I thought that this would surely be discerned, and that it would not be necessary for me to say anything about it. {SpTB02 52.4}

In the controversy that arose among our brethren regarding the teachings of this book, those in favor of giving it a wide circulation declared: "It contains the very sentiments that Sister White has been teaching." This assertion struck right to my heart. I felt heart-broken; for I knew that this representation of the matter was not true. {SpTB02 53.1}

He sat down beside me, and together we read the preface, and most of the first chapter, and also paragraphs in other chapters. As we read, I recognized the very sentiments against which I had been bidden to speak in warning during the early days of my public labors. When I first left the State of Maine, it was to go through Vermont and Massachusetts, to bear a testimony against these sentiments. "Living Temple" contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and personality of God. The statements made in "Living Temple" in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied. {SpTB02 53.2}