Neil D Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 We haven't had a good talk on removing people's names from the books of the Adventist church...and right now, I am aware of one church attempting to do that.. My question is this- Is disfellowshiping [aka removing one's membership from the church] an act of restoration and healing? If so, how? If not,why not? And how can one member begin the process of healing and restoring the spirituality of another? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Some would prefer to get the member out of their sight so that they don't have to help them. Removing them does not help. It just alienates them. Best solution to prevent this kind of judging ... is to just not have ANY members on the books. WEll ... you can have "unofficial" books such as a mailing list etc. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
SivartM Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Taking someone's name out of a database isn't really good for much of anything, in my opinion... Maybe a mailing list would be better. Of course, then we wouldn't be sure if someone was "one of us"... Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Quote: Of course, then we wouldn't be sure if someone was "one of us"... That certainly would be a positive development. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members abelisle Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 We haven't had a good talk on removing people's names from the books of the Adventist church...and right now, I am aware of one church attempting to do that.. My question is this- Is disfellowshiping [aka removing one's membership from the church] an act of restoration and healing? If so, how? If not,why not? And how can one member begin the process of healing and restoring the spirituality of another? I had a good friend who was disfellowshipped due to his beliefs in some erroneous doctrines and his association with people whose sole aim in life was to discredit Adventism. This is what I did: I continued my personal friendship, we (wife and I) prayed for him, we loved him and his family, we played ball together. Now he's back in the church (after about 3 years) and serving the church in different capacities. Don't ever give up on people! ! God never gives up on us. Alex (I thank God every day that he keeps loving me) Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com
Neil D Posted January 17, 2010 Author Posted January 17, 2010 GP I appreciate the words spoken so far, and that we need to restore one who has broken faith with the Adventist church in some way. But this is not about the one who has broken faith with the Adventist Church....This is about the practice of disfellowshiping.... What I want to discuss is disfellowshipping itself...Is it still a useful tool in bringing people back? If so, how...If not, why not? Then I would like to expand the subject, eventually to stats on how many people did come back as to those who did not...Why did those NOT come back? Does anyone know? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators lazarus Posted January 17, 2010 Moderators Posted January 17, 2010 I've been twice invoked in leading churches that where someone was dis-fellowshipped. Firstly, it is Biblical. See Matthew 18. Secondly, there are situations where individuals who have been counseled, prayed for, encouraged, loved and rebuked continue to reject the will of God by willfully and persistently violating Biblical principles. Under these circumstances the church must act to preserve the reputation of the church, remind the membership of what a Christian is/does and discipline the member in the desire to win them back to Jesus. The goal is to restore the member but that member may not want to be restored or healed. They may not see the need to be restored or healed. They may like to keep living with their girlfriend for example. I'm dealing with a situation where we have recommended to someone that they receive counseling. We said we would subsidize the counseling. If they refuse to do anything to resolve their situation dis-fellowship may be an option. God's love for us is expressed in a variety of ways....."As many as I love I rebuke and chasten" Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 GP I appreciate the words spoken so far, and that we need to restore one who has broken faith with the Adventist church in some way. But this is not about the one who has broken faith with the Adventist Church....This is about the practice of disfellowshiping.... What I want to discuss is disfellowshipping itself...Is it still a useful tool in bringing people back? If so, how...If not, why not? Then I would like to expand the subject, eventually to stats on how many people did come back as to those who did not...Why did those NOT come back? Does anyone know? I don't believe that you can not talk about disfellowshiping and not mention the disfellowshiped. As Alex has mentioned and Lazarus, first disfellowship is bibilcal and the person still needs people to love them from the church itself. We should not just leave them by the wayside but also pray for them etc. I believe that Alex has the right idea. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 I have yet to see that membership is Biblical. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted January 17, 2010 Author Posted January 17, 2010 I have yet to see that membership is Biblical. Please, explain...... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 GP I appreciate the words spoken so far, and that we need to restore one who has broken faith with the Adventist church in some way. But this is not about the one who has broken faith with the Adventist Church....This is about the practice of disfellowshiping.... What I want to discuss is disfellowshipping itself...Is it still a useful tool in bringing people back? If so, how...If not, why not? Then I would like to expand the subject, eventually to stats on how many people did come back as to those who did not...Why did those NOT come back? Does anyone know? If I had been disfellowshipped, I would not have come back. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Quote: If I had been disfellowshipped, I would not have come back. The vast majority don't. That should tell us something. Perhaps. Just perhaps ... it is not effective in restoration. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Originally Posted By: Redwood I have yet to see that membership is Biblical. Please, explain...... I did a word search ... and membership ain't there. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 Anyone interested in knowing the reason I wouldn't have come back? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Please Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 Anyone interested in knowing the reason I wouldn't have come back? Yes rudywoofs, I think this would be good to know. At the same time I'd really be interested in the numbers. I know many that have just left the church and evenually there names are taken off the books. But I'm not so sure that those that have been disfellowshiped are that many. And I have read where a number that were disfellowshiped have come back, and of course many that have left on there own have also come back. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 I wouldn't have come back because I know of too many other people who don't abide by the church's standards and they are leaders in the church. If I had been disfellowshipped, so should everyone else. I don't think anyone has been disfellowshipped from my church for years. Some names have been dropped after they requested it, but no formal disfellowshipping has occurred. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Yes. Good Point Pam. We all fall short. Perhaps we all should be disfellowshipped to be fair. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 I wouldn't have come back because I know of too many other people who don't abide by the church's standards and they are leaders in the church. If I had been disfellowshipped, so should everyone else. I don't think anyone has been disfellowshipped from my church for years. Some names have been dropped after they requested it, but no formal disfellowshipping has occurred. That's interesting Pam but it shouldn't be because you are correct. The reason for many not being disfellowshiped is because those that would be doing this proceedure are as bad or whatever. But do do see your point. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs I wouldn't have come back because I know of too many other people who don't abide by the church's standards and they are leaders in the church. If I had been disfellowshipped, so should everyone else. I don't think anyone has been disfellowshipped from my church for years. Some names have been dropped after they requested it, but no formal disfellowshipping has occurred. That's interesting Pam but it shouldn't be because you are correct. The reason for many not being disfellowshiped is because those that would be doing this proceedure are as bad or whatever. But do do see your point. pk I don't understand your answer, pk. You stated the same reason I did. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 I don't understand your answer, pk. You stated the same reason I did. Yeah, me too now that I'm rereading what I wrote. hahaha But anyway, the reason I said its interesting is because when you first were mentioning why? I was thinking that exact thing. Sorry it came out so stupid at first. I guess watching the game and trying to write on other threads is a no no. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Liz Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 :GP: When I was growing up in some pretty small country churches, we went over the books ever so often because the Ingathering quota was based on them--I have no idea if that is still the case, I haven't heard about ingathering the way we used to do it in years, but that is another rabbit trail left for another day. We always did our best to find the missing members and either transfer the membership or ask them what they would like to do, there were always some names that remained on the books even if the people no longer attended and had no desire to attend but because they had a family member that did attend and they just couldn't stand not to have their loved ones on the books--as if keeping them on the books was enough to save them. Then when our church split about 8 or 9 years ago, we were all being threatened with being disfellowshipped and we all raced to our sister church and switched our memberships before that dreadful day could happen. There absolutely was no love there, they were using membership as a weapon. I very much think along the same lines as my Uncle Red on this issue. I feel like we should get baptized into the Body of Christ, our names are then written in the Lamb's Book of Life and what happens there on out is between you and GOD. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 17, 2010 Moderators Posted January 17, 2010 To no one in particular. While we are to love and try to restore the erring, do we not remove a rotten apple to spare the rest in the barrel? Do we not quarantine highly contagious people? Did not God finally say of Ephraim: Ephraim is joined to his idols, leave him alone? Were not Lucifer and his followers finally disfellowshipped? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2010 Moderators Posted January 17, 2010 Yes. Good Point Pam. We all fall short. Perhaps we all should be disfellowshipped to be fair. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teach that members are to be disfellowshipped for "falling short." Disfellowshipping is a last resort for those who are willfully and deliberately practicing sin. There's a big difference between sins of rebellion, or transgressions committed with a high hand, and "falling short." No one should be disfellowshipped who is repentant and shows that he/she wants to do God's will. Every effort to help them should be made by prayers and visitation from members who love them. And after being disfellowshipped, the former members should continue to be shown love and encouraged to worship and study. This last part is very critical. Disfellowshipping has two main purposes: to help the person understand the seriousness & danger of his spiritual condition, and to protect the church from open, flagrent sin. The following verses show some of the Bible support for disfellowshipping: Matt. 18: 15-17; 1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2: 5-11; Titus 3: 10, 11; Rev. 2: 9, 14-16; 2 Thess. 3: 6, 14, 15; Joshua 7. Ellen White: "It is Satan's work to mingle evil with good, and to remove the distinction between good and evil. Christ would have a church that labors to separate the evil from the good, whose members will not willingly tolerate wrong-doing, but will expel it from the heart and life." RH Dec. 4, 1900. In commenting on Joshua 7 and Matt. 18: 15-17, Ellen White wrote, "The names of those who sin and refuse to repent should not be retained on the church books, lest the saints be held accountable for their evil deeds. Those who pursue a course of transgression should be visited and labored with, and if they then refuse to repent, they should be separated from church fellowship, in accordance with the rules laid down in the Word of God... "Those who refuse to hear the admonitions of warnings given by God's faithful messengers are not to be retained in the church. They are to be disfellowshipped; for they will be as Achan in the camp of Israel-- deceived and deceiving. "Who, after reading the record of Achan's sin and punishment, can think it according to the will of God that those who do wickedly, refusing to repent, are to be retained in the church? To retain them would be an insult to the God of heaven." (Letter 215, 1902). See SDA BC 7A on Matt. 18: 15-17 and Rev. 2: 9. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 17, 2010 Members Posted January 17, 2010 I guess I should have been disfellowshipped. Maybe I should be now because I'm certainly not doing a very good job of being a good SDA Christian. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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