Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Redwood You are right. We are not God. Thus, we can judge sinners for we are ALL sinners. What makes one person's sin less than mine? I am hoping that you meant we can not judge sinners for we are ALL sinners. teehe Thank you. My error. Please insert NOT. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 There is only one church that I would be concerned about being fellowshipped from....Christs Church...and that I would be doing on my own. A person could go on and on about the rightness or wrongness of the process for ever, because it is open to human interpretation and error. The church most likely can decide who can be a member and who can't, it is an organization the person chooses to join. You join an organization, you follow its rules. You voluntarily join. Thats why belonging to Christs Church is much more important in my opinion. Oh, by the way, I will not be arguing texts with anyone. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.....for now or until I learn differently....... Yeah. I know what you mean. All the out of context cut and paste quotes do get tiresome. All it takes is a complete study of scripture to get the message that God does the judging ... not a hand full of members on a Tuesday night. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 The church most likely can decide who can be a member and who can't, it is an organization the person chooses to join. You join an organization, you follow its rules. You voluntarily join. I agree. I would add, though, that if a person joins a denomination and believes it is God's church, he should be concerned about whether that church disfellowships him. He should look at the reasons and try to understand if he needs to make some changes in his life. It's entirely possible the church will make a mistake but a person's attitude shouldn't be that it's insignificant or irrelevant. When the church is doing God's will in these matters, God takes its decisions very seriously. See Matt. 18: 15-20. Jesus said that if a person will not listen to the church, he is to be treated as a pagan and a tax-gatherer. He went on to say that whatever the church binds on earth shall be bound in heaven, etc. I think if our attitude is one of rebellion against God, or against His last-day prophet, and against His church and its leaders, we can only be doing damage to ourselves. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 The CHURCH does not disfellowship. A hand full of members who happen to have a certain agenda ... show up on a Tuesday evening .... and do the deed. This in no way reflects the will of God or God's Church. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Posted January 20, 2010 The CHURCH does not disfellowship. A hand full of members who happen to have a certain agenda ... show up on a Tuesday evening .... and do the deed. This in no way reflects the will of God or the God's Church. As I understand it, members show up for a business meeting, and the subject of disfellowshipping someone comes up. It only takes a majority of the members present to disfellowship someone. Or does it go to the church board first? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 The church board does not have the power to disfellowship. The majority of those present at a particular business meeting have the power to disfellowship. And usually there are only a small hand full of members at business meetings. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 All it takes is a complete study of scripture to get the message that God does the judging ... not a hand full of members on a Tuesday night. Of course God does the judging. Disfellowshipping members has nothing to do with attempting to take God's place in judging people. They are two different things entirely. Paul says in 1 Cor. 5: 12, 13 that the church has an obligation to "judge those within the church." Jesus Himself says the same thing in Matt. 18: 17. Ellen White supports this. The "judging" that Paul talks about here is not the same kind of judging that only God can do, nor are they for the same purpose. Should people be labored for and prayed with, etc.? Yes, of course. Every effort should be made to help members before any consideration is given to disfellowshipping them. Disfellowshipping is not the first step but is, rather, a last resort in trying to wake people up as to the danger of their spiritual condition. And even after the individual is disfellowshipped, the church shouldn't stop trying to help them, through visitation and prayer. Even if the person says they don't want to be visited, the church should continue to hold them up in prayer every day. If necessary, the church should assign special members to do this, and the entire church should be praying for people who either have been disfellowshipped or don't come to church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators lazarus Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 See Matt. 18: 15-20. Jesus said that if a person will not listen to the church, he is to be treated as a pagan and a tax-gatherer. He went on to say that whatever the church binds on earth shall be bound in heaven, etc. I think if our attitude is one of rebellion against God, or against His last-day prophet, and against His church and its leaders, we can only be doing damage to ourselves. Just re-posting for emphasis. I don't understand why folks have such a problem accepting the words of Jesus, particularly in this passage: 1. Talk to them privately 2. Take two or three as witnesses 3. Take it to the church( body of believers) If they will not listen to the counsel of the church exclude them from fellowship. When done Bilbically God honors this process. What is done on earths respected heaven. That's serious! Notice what follows "where two or three are gathered". the context of that promise is discipline. Perhaps Jesus forsaw that on "2 or3" would turn up but he promises to bless. No one has given a Biblical reason why the church should not discipline its members. I seen vague occasionally sentimental objections definitely not rooted in scripture. Could our lack of stomach for discipline be one of the reasons why the church in North America is so weak? There can be no discipleship without discipine!!!!! God will hold us accountable if we neglect discipline in the church. The consequences are devastating. In the same way that failure to discipline or children can be devastating for all concerned. Why didn't God seek to restore Annanias and Sapphira? That was a stunning case of discipline.Why did Jesus act in such a definitive manner? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 God can judge who is to be in our church. But we humans and sinners who judge by the outside do not have the ability to judge who should not be in the church. I will leave that up to God to determine. And He has already determined that and communicated it to us. He has said that the wheat and the tares are to grow together till the Harvest. Why? So that they both can have full advantage of the Sun. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 The CHURCH does not disfellowship. A hand full of members who happen to have a certain agenda ... show up on a Tuesday evening .... and do the deed. This in no way reflects the will of God or God's Church. OK. The church often does things wrong. It obviously shouldn't be done wrongly. I'm not arguing that it should be done in the wrong way but in the right way. But the fact that mistakes are made doesn't mean that disfellowshipping per se is wrong or unbiblical. I'm simply arguing here that the concept of disfellowshipping is biblical. I'm not saying that there are never mistakes made or even that the church can't improve the process. I think it's obvious we can and MUST improve. How to improve it would be a great subject for discussion, I think. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
teresaq Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: CoAspen There is only one church that I would be concerned about being fellowshipped from....Christs Church...and that I would be doing on my own. A person could go on and on about the rightness or wrongness of the process for ever, because it is open to human interpretation and error. The church most likely can decide who can be a member and who can't, it is an organization the person chooses to join. You join an organization, you follow its rules. You voluntarily join. Thats why belonging to Christs Church is much more important in my opinion. Oh, by the way, I will not be arguing texts with anyone. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.....for now or until I learn differently....... Yeah. I know what you mean. All the out of context cut and paste quotes do get tiresome. All it takes is a complete study of scripture to get the message that God does the judging ... not a hand full of members on a Tuesday night. you two, did you read the quotes i posted or just assume?! Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 He should look at the reasons and try to understand if he needs to make some changes in his life. It's entirely possible the church will make a mistake but a person's attitude shouldn't be that it's insignificant or irrelevant. When the church is doing God's will in these matters, God takes its decisions very seriously. See Matt. 18: 15-20. Jesus said that if a person will not listen to the church, he is to be treated as a pagan and a tax-gatherer. He went on to say that whatever the church binds on earth shall be bound in heaven, etc. I think if our attitude is one of rebellion against God, or against His last-day prophet, and against His church and its leaders, we can only be doing damage to ourselves. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Renewed_faith Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 I am so very glad that human beings are not the ones that decide whether or not I will go to heaven. God knows what is in people's heart. God knows who we are as a person and where we are in the living of His scriptures. Thus far, I do not belong to an SDA church for this very reason. I do not want to be judged before the 'committee'. I go to church I just do not 'belong' to any church and that is by choice. What if I fell short of how the church thinks I should be living? What if I fall short of anything? Then I will be dealt with and I would have the fear of being disfellowshipped. I have enough to worry about than being disfellowshipped. I will continue to read. I do not know if I will post anymore though. I do not want to end up fighting. I enjoy discussing, I just do not want quarreling to go on. I am enjoying this thread though. :) Quote
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Hey. We need more of people like you posting Renewed Faith. Glad you are here. And I fully understand your fear of doing something wrong and having to go before the Disfellowship Trial. What a threat being held over our heads. Behave or Beware. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 AMEN, Laz. I would love to see local churches have people trained in visitation of members who either want visitation or who often don't come to church. This would be just for the purpose of letting them know they are loved and missed. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Posted January 20, 2010 Some seem to be expressing the belief that you must be a member of the human church in order to belong to the church of Christ. That I do not believe. I don't believe that either. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 20, 2010 Posted January 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: CoAspen Some seem to be expressing the belief that you must be a member of the human church in order to belong to the church of Christ. That I do not believe. I don't believe that either. Good Point. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators lazarus Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 God can judge who is to be in our church. But we humans and sinners who judge by the outside do not have the ability to judge who should not be in the church. I will leave that up to God to determine.. Sorry, Red, what you have posted here is un-Biblical. Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. 1 Cor 5: 10... But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Plain as day Red. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Moderators lazarus Posted January 20, 2010 Moderators Posted January 20, 2010 Any and every church is a human church. The church by definition is human. It's founder was Jesus who was both human and divine. Do you have to be part of a denomination to be saved? No. Every Christian must be a part of some church(a body of believers) somewhere in order to maintain spiritual strength, for growth and service. When you are part of a body of believers you become accountable to you fellow Christians and to God. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Neil D Posted January 20, 2010 Author Posted January 20, 2010 Since you said you did not see any evidence supporting disfellowshipping in the texts I gave, I understood you to mean you did not consider 1 Cor 5 as evidence. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
olger Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I thank GOD that someone in this church had the wisdom & the courage to disfellowship David Koresh !! Think about that... ger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 22, 2010 Members Posted January 22, 2010 I thank GOD that someone in this church had the wisdom & the courage to disfellowship David Koresh !! Think about that... why? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Originally Posted By: olger I thank GOD that someone in this church had the wisdom & the courage to disfellowship David Koresh !! Think about that... why? I second that why. The notion is the old idea that a group is responsible for all the actions of each of it's members. It is simply not sustainable. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
olger Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 If I have to explain it, then it's definitely not worth explaining. Sheesh.. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 22, 2010 Members Posted January 22, 2010 If I have to explain it, then it's definitely not worth explaining. Sheesh..g Thank you for that illuminating response. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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