disfellowshiping members

[CyberGuy]

Taking someone's name out of a database isn't really good for much of anything, in my opinion...

Maybe a mailing list would be better.

Of course, then we wouldn't be sure if someone was "one of us"...

There are many reasons for removing people from the membership list.

One pastor was called into the conference and asked why his church membership declined by 50 percent in the first year of his pastorship. The pastor replied it did not take long for him to find out that the books had not been kept up for several decades and half the membership on the books were dead. She he removed them from the books.

What is the reason for the removal. Death or members that moved away without telling where they moved to are good reasons to remove the members from the books.

Not all members who are removed from the books are being Disfellowed.

[CyberGuy]

In aother case one man who had backslid and left the church for 40 years wanted to come back and be rebaptised. He was told he was still on record as a member of that church must to his amazement. Do we NEVER take a person off the books just because they are alive. Is that what is being proposed here?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't think that's what's being proposed here. I merely stated that if *I* had been disfellowshipped 25 years ago, I would have never come back.

[CyberGuy]

I don't think that's what's being proposed here. I merely stated that if *I* had been disfellowshipped 25 years ago, I would have never come back.

Disfellowshiped? Or your name taken off the books? Peoples names are taken off the books if they stop attending church. That is not being disfellowshipped.

Disfellowshiped is done when a person apostates like leaves the church and gets drunk and or uses illegal drugs or some other public apostate action.

[teresaq]

I then saw Brother _____. He had wounded and torn the hearts of God's people. I saw he had been stubborn and rebellious, and unless he changed his course entirely, the church should disfellowship him, for he has been a dead weight to the church. {8MR 219.3}

Some have taken a position that those who use tobacco should be dealt with and turned out of the church. In all of our experience for many years not a case of this kind has thus been treated by us. We have borne with them and labored with and prayed with them for years, and if after a time they did not reform, they became lax in other things and causes of a grievous character occurred which required an action on the part of the church, but then the responsibility was not assumed by merely the resident elder, the deacon, or any church member, but the church waited in patience for help, for wise counselors, and then moved with the greatest caution. These hasty movements in such cases tend to ruin a church. It shows a self-sufficient, self-important, bigoted spirit, which if indulged will ruin any church. . . . {9MR 195.2}

[Dr. Shane]

We haven't had a good talk on removing people's names from the books of the Adventist church...and right now, I am aware of one church attempting to do that..

My question is this-

Is disfellowshiping [aka removing one's membership from the church] an act of restoration and healing? If so, how? If not,why not? And how can one member begin the process of healing and restoring the spirituality of another?

I haven't read the entire thread so let me respond to the begining post.

I know a lot of churches simply try to clean up their books. They are not trying to disfellowship anyone, just get the names off the books of people who no longer want to be members.

I don't know of many churches in the NAD that are active in disfellowshipping. In the IAD, however, many still do this.

When I was a child, my mother was disfellowshipped for smoking. She does not look back on it as a bad experience. The church offered a stop smoking program and she was not interested in attending. The pastor and an elder came out to the house and told her she was being disfellowshipped. They encouraged her to continue to attend church. They prayed and cried with her. She felt sorry for putting them through the emotional process of having to disfellowship her. A few years later she quit quit smoking and was rebaptised.

My sister-in-law, in El Salvador, was disfellowshipped when she became pregnant out of wedlock. She was a Master Guide and active in the Pathfinders as well as teaching Sabbath School. After being disfellowshipped she took Bible studies with a pastor and was rebaptized before the baby was born.

My wife was disfellowshipped for working on Sabbath when she was a teenager. She was living with her uncle and he forced her to work on the Sabbath. Once she left his home, she quit working on the Sabbath and was rebaptized.

My wife's aunt was disfellowshipped in El Salvador for wearing jeans to church. She did not return to the church for years. After moving to California she started attending the Adventist church again but has not yet been rebaptized.

I left the church when I was 14. I get into drink, drugs and smoking. I was never disfellowshipped. No one from the church ever reached out to me after I left it. I returned to the Adventist church as the result of a spiritual quest I had started. I was rebaptized when I decided to join the church as an adult.

[Aliensanctuary]

All religions are man-made, and thus, are polluted with human nature. It would be only a dream to have a perfect church filled with perfect people led by perfect pastors.

In short, this whole world is a pigpen, and we're all either standing in mud trying to stay as clean as possible, or rolling around in it, savoring the experience. It's impossible to take a really good shower, even if we wanted to, and we cannot escape our prison except by death. Some may delude themselves into thinking they are clean, but if they were to look in a mirror they would see that they, too, were just as dirty as everyone else, just in different places other than their faces.

But there's bright hope for the future. We have a roadmap to follow to a place where there's a river of clean, warm, water so we can take a really nice bath to get rid of all of the dirt and contaminants that make our lives so miserable. The directions are simple, but each roadmap is custom-made for each person. If we use someone else's roadmap, we will likely get lost. The journey is a solitary trek, but if there are others nearby, we can be friends with them as long as our journeys overlap.

There are numerous organizations that claim to teach us how to read our roadmap, but most of their claims cannot be trusted. If they don't like your roadmap, they may kick you out of their organization. Our personal roadmaps are very private documents, and no organization should meddle.

If we put our trust in the mapmaker and follow his directions, we will find ourselves getting closer and closer to our destination. If we can only stop looking down at the mud or at how dirty we have become, we can see the bright lights of our destination lying just ahead.

It's our future home where there will be no more pigs, pigpens, mud, or slop covering our bodies. There's a big, clean river to wash up in, the first thing we will do upon our arrival. The mud gets washed away, never to return.

The mapmaker will be there, too, to congratulate us upon the completion of our difficult journey. After our wash in the river, a really deep scrub, we won't remember the pigpen anymore. There's too much new stuff to wonder about.

[Steve Billiter]

The religion of the Bible is God-made, it is not man made.

You never say clearly what amounts to any truth, who is the mapmaker and what is the map? It could be the devil and the steps of Mordor for all we know.

Chap. 39 - The Knowledge Received Through God's Word

The whole Bible is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Received, believed, obeyed, it is the great instrumentality in the transformation of character. It is the grand stimulus, the constraining force, that quickens the physical, mental, and spiritual powers, and directs the life into right channels. {MH 458.1}

The reason why the youth, and even those of mature years, are so easily led into temptation and sin, is that they do not study the word of God and meditate upon it as they should. The lack of firm, decided will power, which is manifest in life and character, results from neglect of the sacred instruction of God's word. They do not by earnest effort direct the mind to that which would inspire pure, holy thought and divert it from that which is impure and untrue. There are few who choose the better part, who sit at the feet of Jesus, as did Mary, to learn of the divine Teacher. Few treasure His words in the heart and practice them in the life.

459

{MH 458.2}

The truths of the Bible, received, will uplift mind and soul. If the word of God were appreciated as it should be, both young and old would possess an inward rectitude, a strength of principle, that would enable them to resist temptation. {MH 459.1}

Let men teach and write the precious things of the Holy Scriptures. Let the thought, the aptitude, the keen exercise of brain power, be given to the study of the thoughts of God. Study not the philosophy of man's conjectures, but study the

460

philosophy of Him who is truth. No other literature can compare with this in value. {MH 459.2}

The mind that is earthly finds no pleasure in contemplating the word of God; but for the mind renewed by the Holy Spirit, divine beauty and celestial light shine from the sacred page. That which to the earthly mind was a desolate wilderness, to the spiritual mind becomes a land of living streams. {MH 460.1}

The knowledge of God as revealed in His word is the knowledge to be given to our children. From the earliest dawn of reason they should be made familiar with the name and the life of Jesus. Their first lessons should teach them that God is their Father. Their first training should be that of loving obedience. Reverently and tenderly let the word of God be read and repeated to them in portions suited to their comprehension and adapted to awaken their interest. And, above all, let them learn of His love revealed in Christ, and its great lesson: {MH 460.2}

[Woody]

This entire thread is off topic. It belongs in the "Real Issues in Adventism" Forum or What SDA Believe or Theology Forum or some such religious forum. But not Townhall IMHO.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

...we ALL willfully sin and continue to sin. Sin is Sin as our prophet puts it. And if you commit one sin you are just as guilty as if you commmit all sins. So, if you think I am unworthy of membership ... then none are worthy of membership. We ALL sin. None have stopped. Even in our thoughts we sin.

Same ol' same ol'.

It's true that everyone without exception is in desperate need of God's unmerited favor. None of us deserves God's love or salvation. But both the Scriptures and Ellen White's writings show that God does not view all sin in the same way. All sin is to be taken seriously, though, and any cherished, unconfessed sin will keep us out of heaven because by holding on to it, we are making it more important in our life than Jesus.

See the Bible and SOP evidence on post #323121.

IF this was meant as a jab at me ... let me just throw it right back at ya. I've posted all the proof of what I say with quotations from EGW and scripture. It is clear for those that want to be honest and see it.

But some prefer the "Same ol' same ol'". And will not see the light of day if it hits them square on the forehead.

[Aliensanctuary]

I apologize that my posts do not meet the high standards of Pure Religion. #323344 was just an idea that came to me just prior to posting.

I've never done anything to be disfellowshipped since getting baptized and joining the SDA Church in 1980, but I would have disfellowshipped myself long ago if I had been assaulted by too many quotes from well-meaning, but misguided, members.

[Woody]

[teresaq]

:) you dont dare sit next to them at church because they literally will not shut up. hour after hour. i mean youd think theyd run out of something to say, and dont even try to get a word in edgewise!

[Woody]

It's like babble from a baby. They make quote after quote and do not interpret what they mean. It is almost like speaking in tongues. If there isn't an interpreter ... what value is it?

[CyberGuy]

When I was out of the church for 24 years, there was not a single time when a member of the church, pastor or otherwise, came to see me. I was a non-entity. I don't know what I would have done if someone *had* stopped by to see me.

I have a panic disorder now that prevents me from being around people for very long. It can get very lonely to be by oneself. Ironically the panic disorder stems from PTSD from spiritual abuse at my last job where my boss/administrator was an SDA pastor-turned-entrepreneur.

This depends on the size of the church. In a small church a member who stops attending would be missed. In a larger church a member who is not a well known member might stop attending and never be missed.

For instance I am a member of a large 2500 member SDA church. I doubt very much if I stopped attending church I would be missed. A great many in the church could say the same thing. Does that mean the church is cold and uncaring? I think not.

[Gerr]

Problem is Gerry ... we ALL willfully sin and continue to sin. Sin is Sin as our prophet puts it. And if you commit one sin you are just as guilty as if you commmit all sins. So, if you think I am unworthy of membership ... then none are worthy of membership. We ALL sin. None have stopped. Even in our thoughts we sin.

For sure ... I'm not going to sit in judgment of another sinner. They would have to kick me out first.

Red, please read the church manual.

And maybe you sin willfully, but I don't think everyone deliberately/willfully/high-handedly do so.

PS

What mischief are you premeditating to do now, Red?

[Gerr]

When I was out of the church for 24 years, there was not a single time when a member of the church, pastor or otherwise, came to see me. I was a non-entity. I don't know what I would have done if someone *had* stopped by to see me.

I have a panic disorder now that prevents me from being around people for very long. It can get very lonely to be by oneself. Ironically the panic disorder stems from PTSD from spiritual abuse at my last job where my boss/administrator was an SDA pastor-turned-entrepreneur.

I am very sorry to hear that. If nobody visited you, they would have had no business disfellowshiping you. As I said before, discipline is about restoration, not punishment. It is not about "cleaning the books of dead wood!" People do not attend church for many different reasons. Some are not seen in church just because they are discouraged and need encouragement. To treat someone as a non-entity is to deny that unique "self", "personhood", the image that God has placed in man.

It looks like it is just as well that your former boss/pastor is in another line of work now.

BTW, what is being suggested to treat you panic disorder? When I was young, I had a couple of accidents that really bruised my ego so bad that made me feel like the lowest of the low. It drove me into a shell. Meeting people, getting in front of a group was traumatic. But I came to realize that was not healthy. My solution to that problem was to sell books during the summers I was in college.

[cricket]

For instance I am a member of a large 2500 member SDA church. I doubt very much if I stopped attending church I would be missed. A great many in the church could say the same thing. Does that mean the church is cold and uncaring? I think not.

The church is an entity made up of individual persons. It is made up of the persons you sit with in Sabbath school, the persons who greet you at the door, the persons who shake your hand when the "meet and greet" session goes on, the persons who sit by you in the pew during the sermon. No matter the size of the church, people are not invisible. People, whether likable or not, are always noticed by someone. To have one's absence not acknowledged does not depend on the size of the church--it merely depends on the behavior of the small group of individuals one comes in contact with. By extension, these are the same small group of people who are representative of Jesus.

[Woody]

Quote:

What mischief are you premeditating to do now, Red?

Just what sinners do.

[Woody]

Quote:

Red, please read the church manual.

Yes. I have. The entire book. And it clearly states that you can be kicked out for any sin that brings dishonor on the church. And it doesn't matter if you have repented or am sorry or not. It is called punishment. After all ... we have to protect the spotless "image" of the church. Ha Ha

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

For instance I am a member of a large 2500 member SDA church. I doubt very much if I stopped attending church I would be missed. A great many in the church could say the same thing. Does that mean the church is cold and uncaring? I think not.

The church is an entity made up of individual persons. It is made up of the persons you sit with in Sabbath school, the persons who greet you at the door, the persons who shake your hand when the "meet and greet" session goes on, the persons who sit by you in the pew during the sermon. No matter the size of the church, people are not invisible. People, whether likable or not, are always noticed by someone. To have one's absence not acknowledged does not depend on the size of the church--it merely depends on the behavior of the small group of individuals one comes in contact with. By extension, these are the same small group of people who are representative of Jesus.

Bottom line is that you have to be responsible enough to reach out also. If you need a pastor to visit you. Speak up and tell someone. Not everyone knows of your needs or wants.

[cricket]

Another bottom line might be that the people in the church also need to be responsible enough to reach out; there is no telling if the absent person is too compromised--physically, spiritually or mentally--to be able to reach out and tell others of their needs.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

When I was out of the church for 24 years, there was not a single time when a member of the church, pastor or otherwise, came to see me. I was a non-entity. I don't know what I would have done if someone *had* stopped by to see me.

I have a panic disorder now that prevents me from being around people for very long. It can get very lonely to be by oneself. Ironically the panic disorder stems from PTSD from spiritual abuse at my last job where my boss/administrator was an SDA pastor-turned-entrepreneur.

I am very sorry to hear that. If nobody visited you, they would have had no business disfellowshiping you. As I said before, discipline is about restoration, not punishment. It is not about "cleaning the books of dead wood!" People do not attend church for many different reasons. Some are not seen in church just because they are discouraged and need encouragement. To treat someone as a non-entity is to deny that unique "self", "personhood", the image that God has placed in man.

It looks like it is just as well that your former boss/pastor is in another line of work now.

BTW, what is being suggested to treat you panic disorder? When I was young, I had a couple of accidents that really bruised my ego so bad that made me feel like the lowest of the low. It drove me into a shell. Meeting people, getting in front of a group was traumatic. But I came to realize that was not healthy. My solution to that problem was to sell books during the summers I was in college.

My panic attacks are being treated with medication. It helps for a little while, but then I'll have to go somewhere where there's people, and I'll have to take something before I go. I don't like relying on meds, but it seems to be the only thing that helps. I've turned into somewhat of an agoraphobic where I'm afraid of just about any situation. I'm even afraid of the little kids outside riding their tricycles. It's crazy, I know.

[Liz]

My sister-in-law, in El Salvador, was disfellowshipped when she became pregnant out of wedlock. She was a Master Guide and active in the Pathfinders as well as teaching Sabbath School. After being disfellowshipped she took Bible studies with a pastor and was rebaptized before the baby was born.

My wife was disfellowshipped for working on Sabbath when she was a teenager. She was living with her uncle and he forced her to work on the Sabbath. Once she left his home, she quit working on the Sabbath and was rebaptized.

My wife's aunt was disfellowshipped in El Salvador for wearing jeans to church. She did not return to the church for years. After moving to California she started attending the Adventist church again but has not yet been rebaptized.

Good night, Shane, it is amazing that this church in El Salvador had any members at all.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

We haven't had a good talk on removing people's names from the books of the Adventist church...and right now, I am aware of one church attempting to do that..

My question is this-

Is disfellowshiping [aka removing one's membership from the church] an act of restoration and healing? If so, how? If not,why not? And how can one member begin the process of healing and restoring the spirituality of another?

I haven't read the entire thread so let me respond to the begining post.

I know a lot of churches simply try to clean up their books. They are not trying to disfellowship anyone, just get the names off the books of people who no longer want to be members.

I don't know of many churches in the NAD that are active in disfellowshipping. In the IAD, however, many still do this.

When I was a child, my mother was disfellowshipped for smoking. She does not look back on it as a bad experience. The church offered a stop smoking program and she was not interested in attending. The pastor and an elder came out to the house and told her she was being disfellowshipped. They encouraged her to continue to attend church. They prayed and cried with her. She felt sorry for putting them through the emotional process of having to disfellowship her. A few years later she quit quit smoking and was rebaptised.

My sister-in-law, in El Salvador, was disfellowshipped when she became pregnant out of wedlock. She was a Master Guide and active in the Pathfinders as well as teaching Sabbath School. After being disfellowshipped she took Bible studies with a pastor and was rebaptized before the baby was born.

My wife was disfellowshipped for working on Sabbath when she was a teenager. She was living with her uncle and he forced her to work on the Sabbath. Once she left his home, she quit working on the Sabbath and was rebaptized.

My wife's aunt was disfellowshipped in El Salvador for wearing jeans to church. She did not return to the church for years. After moving to California she started attending the Adventist church again but has not yet been rebaptized.

I left the church when I was 14. I get into drink, drugs and smoking. I was never disfellowshipped. No one from the church ever reached out to me after I left it. I returned to the Adventist church as the result of a spiritual quest I had started. I was rebaptized when I decided to join the church as an adult.

I remember you mentioning this before. I liked your post about this before and still appreciate it now and for sharing this.

pk