Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The brain is the citadel of the being. (Reflecting Christ 151)

The heart is the citadel of the being.(Reflecting Christ 112)

I do believe that proves it right there Mark. I was trying to use reason, but nat just found the right quotes.

But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

Mark

Actually it does. If the heart and the brain are the same thing, and according to this, it is. Then if it says the HS dwells in the heart, then that means the brain, or mind. Can't you see that? You are starting to remind me of sky a little bit. Remember how stubborn he became about "God never destroys"? He didn't want to be shown any different. Therefore, no amount of proof would make him think otherwise.

These two quotes are all the proof I need. It shows that Ellen White thought they were one and the same. That should stop the argument.

But now you seem to be saying that because it isn't written in precisely the language you are looking for, that it doesn't mean what it says.

The heart is the citadel of the being.(Reflecting Christ 112)

The brain is the citadel of the being. (Reflecting Christ 151)

All that needs to be shown, is that the heart and mind are the same thing. Then that alone, absolutely does deal with where the Holy Spirit dwells. How are you saying that it doesn't?

[pnattmbtc]

But this would fall down on one simple point.

The Robes of Christ, are given for our justification.

The Indwelling of the Spirit is given for our sanctification.

I would not agree, that they represent the same thing.

Unless you had a link somewhere in the SOP that could link the two points?

That the Indwelling of the Spirit and the Robe of Christ, are the same thing?

I am not aware of such a position ever being stated in the SOP. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

If the heart were the literal heart, in the chest region, these statements would be contradictory.

I do believe that proves it right there Mark. I was trying to use reason, but nat just found the right quotes.

Mark:But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

What we have here are two apparently contradictory statements, that do not actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That is the specific point being made.

With the other point that I cannot find anywhere in the SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind. :-)

Here's the point. The one quote said, "The brain is the citadel of the being." The other said "the heart is the citadel of the being." This establishes that the heart is in the head region, not the chest region. If the heart were in the chest region, there would be a contradiction here. But since the heart is not dealing with chest activities, but head activities, there's no contradiction.

It's not the heart itself which is a "faculty of the mind," but the activities ascribed to the heart.

You really don't see the significant of the brain=heart equivalent usage here? I can't imagine how could think such an equivalence would be possible, given your ideas regarding the heart.

[teresaq]

I stated it. I said she could have just as well written the one thing as the other.

Take a look at what she said:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

If this isn't describing sanctification, I don't know what is! I actually can't think of a better way of describing it than this; the merging of the heart, will, mind with Christ's, and every thought brought into captivity to Him; living His life. Beautiful! Another way of describing the same reality also expressed as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as I see it. A relationship, as karl puts it. (who, if you're reading this, please note the above is not simply believing "facts.")

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Well, folks, I finally got the scoop from someone who has been around the block and knows about Holy Spirit. It resides in your whole body. It speaks to you through your brain or "mind." The word "heart" can be another word for "mind".... The HS speaks to you in your head, not in your viscera. Your kidneys secrete urine...the HS doesn't do that. End of story.

[Woody]

Terrific. That is a great way to describe it Rudywoofs. Thanks. I think you are exactly right.

[teresaq]

The HS speaks to you in your head, not in your viscera. Your kidneys secrete urine...the HS doesn't do that. End of story.

lol!!

[Woody]

Yes This should put the urine secreting to where it belongs.

[Guest]

I'm glad we finally got that cleared up.

[Woody]

Yes. Praise God ... we can now move on to other topics.

[John317]

But then there have been strong reactions John.

Yes, there are strong reactions to transplanted organs. But those reactions are to all kinds of organs and not simply the heart. Also, as far as I know, the reactions are not of a kind that indicate the heart is where we do our thinking or feeling.

What do you think is meant by the saying that something or someone "broke my heart"? Sometimes people do have heart-attack as a result of something that happens to them, but ordinarily the person is not referring to their literal heart when they say "my heart is broken." I think the Bible is using "heart" in the sense of one's emotions and innermost self. In that sense, we mean that the Holy Spirit dwells in our innermost being, not merely affecting our intellect but our whole life in the profoundest way.

"God is moving upon every mind that is open to receive the impressions of His Holy Spirit." ML 63

"It [the Holy Spirit] will quicken and energize the mind, direct their thoughts, and aid in the presentation of truth... God speaks to their hearts through the man consecrated to His service." FE 242

"But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way." 8 T 290, 291.

"There is no limit to the usefulness of one who, putting self aside, makes room for the working of the Holy Spirit upon his heart and lives a life wholly consecratted to God.... The Holy Spirit puts forth its highest energies to work in mind and heart." MH 159

Do these quotes help?

[Twilight]

The Holy Spirit dwells in the mind. The people in Biblical times thought the seat of the emotions was the heart, so that's how it was written in the Bible. But the Holy Spirit communicates to us through our brains, our senses. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

The Holy Spirit dwells in the mind.

Then please supply a statement from SOP or the Bible to support this assertion. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

The Holy Spirit dwells in the mind. The people in Biblical times thought the seat of the emotions was the heart, so that's how it was written in the Bible. But the Holy Spirit communicates to us through our brains, our senses. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

I agree with Rudywoofs. And I would also ask ... WHY does it matter? Why would one spend any time on the issue? Mark, can you tell me why it is important to you?

Imagine going to someone who has never heard of Christ and explaining this:

"Now the Holy Spirit will come in and dwell in a faculty of your mind, literally..."

I think the response might me:

Huh?

We make the simplest things, most complicated, when we rely on assumption.

The assumption I am challenging here, is that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind.

Where does it state that in Scripture or SOP?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

Mark

Actually it does. If the heart and the brain are the same thing, and according to this, it is. Then if it says the HS dwells in the heart, then that means the brain, or mind. Can't you see that? You are starting to remind me of sky a little bit. Remember how stubborn he became about "God never destroys"? He didn't want to be shown any different. Therefore, no amount of proof would make him think otherwise.

These two quotes are all the proof I need. It shows that Ellen White thought they were one and the same. That should stop the argument.

But now you seem to be saying that because it isn't written in precisely the language you are looking for, that it doesn't mean what it says.

The heart is the citadel of the being.(Reflecting Christ 112)

The brain is the citadel of the being. (Reflecting Christ 151)

All that needs to be shown, is that the heart and mind are the same thing. Then that alone, absolutely does deal with where the Holy Spirit dwells. How are you saying that it doesn't?

That Christ may dwell in your brains by love?

I will put a new brain in you?

I will take your stony brain and give you a brain of flesh?

We have replaced one literal organ with another here?

I am also concerned that the two quotes that have been supplied are being presented out of their original context. Can we have the context also?

I am not being stubborn my friend, I am just examining the arguments against this idea and they are failing for the points I keep mentioning to all.

If you want to show me I am in error, you will have to deal with the specific points I have made.

If you can do that, then I can change my position.

But I cannot change based on two quotes from SOP without context, as the standard of this whole doctrine.

I know that you Richard strongly condemn that when others do it, do not fall into the same trap yourself.

In love,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If the heart were the literal heart, in the chest region, these statements would be contradictory.

I do believe that proves it right there Mark. I was trying to use reason, but nat just found the right quotes.

Mark:But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

What we have here are two apparently contradictory statements, that do not actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That is the specific point being made.

With the other point that I cannot find anywhere in the SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind. :-)

Here's the point. The one quote said, "The brain is the citadel of the being." The other said "the heart is the citadel of the being." This establishes that the heart is in the head region, not the chest region. If the heart were in the chest region, there would be a contradiction here. But since the heart is not dealing with chest activities, but head activities, there's no contradiction.

It's not the heart itself which is a "faculty of the mind," but the activities ascribed to the heart.

You really don't see the significant of the brain=heart equivalent usage here? I can't imagine how could think such an equivalence would be possible, given your ideas regarding the heart.

Please supply the context of the quotes Pnat.

If we do not, this is just "proof" texting... :-)

[Twilight]

Well, folks, I finally got the scoop from someone who has been around the block and knows about Holy Spirit. It resides in your whole body. It speaks to you through your brain or "mind." The word "heart" can be another word for "mind".... The HS speaks to you in your head, not in your viscera. Your kidneys secrete urine...the HS doesn't do that. End of story.

Now if we believe the Holy Spirit dwells in the "body", why would we then deny the possibility that the actual seat in the body is the heart?

Body = ok / Heart = not ok?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But then there have been strong reactions John.

Yes, there are strong reactions to transplanted organs. But those reactions are to all kinds of organs and not simply the heart. Also, as far as I know, the reactions are not of a kind that indicate the heart is where we do our thinking or feeling.

What do you think is meant by the saying that something or someone "broke my heart"? Sometimes people do have heart-attack as a result of something that happens to them, but ordinarily the person is not referring to their literal heart when they say "my heart is broken." I think the Bible is using "heart" in the sense of one's emotions and innermost self. In that sense, we mean that the Holy Spirit dwells in our innermost being, not merely affecting our intellect but our whole life in the profoundest way.

"God is moving upon every mind that is open to receive the impressions of His Holy Spirit." ML 63

"It [the Holy Spirit] will quicken and energize the mind, direct their thoughts, and aid in the presentation of truth... God speaks to their hearts through the man consecrated to His service." FE 242

"But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way." 8 T 290, 291.

"There is no limit to the usefulness of one who, putting self aside, makes room for the working of the Holy Spirit upon his heart and lives a life wholly consecratted to God.... The Holy Spirit puts forth its highest energies to work in mind and heart." MH 159

Do these quotes help?

Try it like this John.

The mind is the seat of the thoughts.

The heart is the seat of the emotions.

Does scripture work, when that is applied.

Does that fit with SOP.

Yes.

But does the idea that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind, or the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in the "mind" exist in the SOP or Bible?

Not as far as I can see?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

p:If the heart were the literal heart, in the chest region, these statements would be contradictory.

I do believe that proves it right there Mark. I was trying to use reason, but nat just found the right quotes.

Mark:But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

What we have here are two apparently contradictory statements, that do not actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That is the specific point being made.

With the other point that I cannot find anywhere in the SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind. :-)

p:Here's the point. The one quote said, "The brain is the citadel of the being." The other said "the heart is the citadel of the being." This establishes that the heart is in the head region, not the chest region. If the heart were in the chest region, there would be a contradiction here. But since the heart is not dealing with chest activities, but head activities, there's no contradiction.

It's not the heart itself which is a "faculty of the mind," but the activities ascribed to the heart.

You really don't see the significant of the brain=heart equivalent usage here? I can't imagine how could think such an equivalence would be possible, given your ideas regarding the heart.

Mark:Please supply the context of the quotes Pnat.

If we do not, this is just "proof" texting... :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Context of statements (ellipsis original).

Quote:

Truth is sacred, divine. It is stronger and more powerful than anything else in the formation of a character after the likeness of Christ. In it there is fullness of joy. When it is cherished in the heart, the love of Christ is preferred to the love of any human being. This is Christianity. This is the love of God in the soul. Thus pure, unadulterated truth occupies the citadel of the being. The words are fulfilled, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." There is a nobleness in the life of the one who lives and works under the vivifying influence of the truth...

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind." This is the service that God requires. Nothing short of this is pure and undefiled religion. The heart is the citadel of the being; and until that is wholly on the Lord's side, the enemy will gain constant victories over us by his subtle temptations. (RC 112)

Quote:

The brain is the citadel of the being. Wrong physical habits affect the brain, and prevent the attainment of . . . good mental discipline. Unless the youth are versed in the science of how to care for the body as well as for the mind, they will not be successful students. Study is not the principal cause of breakdown of the mental powers. The main cause is improper diet, irregular meals, a lack of physical exercise, and careless inattention in other respects to the laws of health. When we do all that we can to preserve the health, then we can ask God in faith to bless our efforts.(RC 151)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:If the heart were the literal heart, in the chest region, these statements would be contradictory.

I do believe that proves it right there Mark. I was trying to use reason, but nat just found the right quotes.

Mark:But neither of these actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Richard.

What we have here are two apparently contradictory statements, that do not actually deal with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

That is the specific point being made.

With the other point that I cannot find anywhere in the SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind. :-)

p:Here's the point. The one quote said, "The brain is the citadel of the being." The other said "the heart is the citadel of the being." This establishes that the heart is in the head region, not the chest region. If the heart were in the chest region, there would be a contradiction here. But since the heart is not dealing with chest activities, but head activities, there's no contradiction.

It's not the heart itself which is a "faculty of the mind," but the activities ascribed to the heart.

You really don't see the significant of the brain=heart equivalent usage here? I can't imagine how could think such an equivalence would be possible, given your ideas regarding the heart.

Mark:Please supply the context of the quotes Pnat.

If we do not, this is just "proof" texting... :-)

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Please supply the context of the quotes Pnat.

If we do not, this is just "proof" texting... :-)

I provided the references.

I got the idea of looking for such statements from the posts you provided earlier. When I saw the quote that said the heart is the citadel of the being, I thought there would be a good chance of finding something similar in relation to the mind. What I actually found used the word "brain," which established the point I was wishing to show even more clearly.

That the words "heart" and "brain" can be used interchangeably demonstrates conclusively that the heart is not in the chest region. It's difficult to conceive of how this could be more conclusively shown.

Several have seen the logic of the heart transplant argument, and echoed it.

I strongly suspect that if I took to the time to do so, I could find additional statements which demonstrate the equivalence of heart and brain/mind (using the texts you originally provided as a starting point) but don't think it would be productive to do so.

I would be interested to see the research where Humans have been given Pig hearts and are alive, has that happened?

It seems to be the basis of the argument after all.

The man who had a mechanical heart fitted has expressed deeply profound emotional disruption, as I posted on the other thread, so the transplant affected his emotions, which fits in with this whole point...

But I would like to see the "pig heart transplants" research...

[Woody]

Yes. Praise God ... we can now move on to other topics.

Perhaps I stand corrected.

[Guest]

That Christ may dwell in your brains by love?

[Twilight]

I find one statement in the whole of SOP, that states the mind is the "citadel".

I find thirty one statements in the SOP that the heart is the "citadel".

I find two that says the brain is the "citadel".

I might have just noticed something however...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That Christ may dwell in your brains by love?

If the heart is the brain, YES!

Quote:

I will put a new brain in you?

If heart means brain, YES!

Quote:

I will take your stony brain and give you a brain of flesh?

If they are one and the same, YES!

Quote:

I am also concerned that the two quotes that have been supplied are being presented out of their original context. Can we have the context also?

Firm, quiet nerves and a healthy circulation help men to follow right principles and to listen to the promptings of conscience. The brain is the citadel of the being. Wrong physical habits affect the brain, and prevent the attainment of good mental discipline. {RC 151}

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind." This is the service that God requires. Nothing short of this is pure and undefiled religion. The heart is the citadel of the being; and until that is wholly on the Lord's side, the enemy will gain constant victories over us by his subtle temptations. {RC 112.6}

Looking at these quotes in context, actually makes the case even stronger. As you can see, she uses the two interchangably. It seems to me, that if you were looking for the truth on this issue, you could have gone and looked at the context of these two quotes yourself, after having been given the page numbers.

Now that you have been shown that the heart is the brain, or mind, and vise versa, what will you do?

I will examine the points you have made and question the assumptions if there is any, behind them.

Will let you know more on this...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Well, folks, I finally got the scoop from someone who has been around the block and knows about Holy Spirit. It resides in your whole body. It speaks to you through your brain or "mind." The word "heart" can be another word for "mind".... The HS speaks to you in your head, not in your viscera. Your kidneys secrete urine...the HS doesn't do that. End of story.

Now if we believe the Holy Spirit dwells in the "body", why would we then deny the possibility that the actual seat in the body is the heart?

Body = ok / Heart = not ok?

Mark :-)

Why are you obsessing about this?? You are trying to make the Holy Spirit into a static object. It isn't static.