Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[olger]

So, are you from Ohio, Teresa? I am.

[teresaq]

So, are you from Ohio, Teresa? I am.

"Please don't feed the drama queens.." :)

[teresaq]

If this is your view, then why would God specify a distinct Christian experience?

That this manifestation is given specifically to believing Christians.

There is a specific manifestation of the presence of God within the believer, that the Bible reveals to us.

The will of every human being should be under the discipline and control of God, for it is a dangerous element if exercised in selfish schemes. The will of the human agent is not to be given into the control of any other man. When merged into the will of other men, it is misleading. The will of man is safe only when united with the will of God. When merged into the will of God it is a will joined to conscience, rightly exercised in advancing the honour and glory of God. The Lord has purchased the will, the affections, the mind, the soul, and the strength. Thus He has taken the whole man. Under the supervision of the divine power the will is to be cultivated to become strong, prompt, firm. It is not to fail nor become discouraged. {BEcho, July 20, 1896 par. 5}

[olger]

[Tom Wetmore]

So Mark, in this pataphorical world of yours, what does it mean to have a "heavy heart"? Is that to be understood as a real weight gain in the heart organ? Or is to be understood as evidence that the heart contains or is actually burdened by something with tangible and measurable mass and weight?

[Woody]

Good Point Tom.

And what happens to you if you are heartbroken? Do you have to get a transplant?

[Woody]

Ellen White had a time when her heart was broken. What did she do about it? Did she go to the Hospital?

"I felt heartbroken" 1 SM 203

NO

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I understand you now.

This doesn't appear to be the case, based on the rest of your response.

Quote:

You believe that God is already in everything already, so it does not matter or make a difference if there is a specific "manifestation" within?

Other than a mental awareness of that reality?

No, this isn't even close. It's not a physical thing. God is omnipresent, as He must be, for things to exist, but it is not His physical presence that counts, but His spiritual presence. His spiritual presence is communicated by means of the Holy Spirit, who speaks to us, telling us that God is with us.

Quote:

If this is your view, then why would God specify a distinct Christian experience?

Because the distinction is not physical.

Quote:

That this manifestation is given specifically to believing Christians.

There is a specific manifestation of the presence of God within the believer, that the Bible reveals to us.

Yes, and that specific manifestation occurs as I described in the previous post, by means of communication, from mind to mind (or Spirit to spirit, if you prefer putting it that way). From Scripture:

Quote:

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Roman 8)

This is describing the communication I spoke of in the previous post.

Let me clarify what I think your understanding is:

1. God is in everything already.

2. Therefore the Holy Spirit is in everything already.

3. Therefore there is no specific manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the individual, as He is already present.

4. Because He is already present everywhere, then what we experience is communication.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Let me offer you another quote:

But there is the message all the same; it is not changed; it trembles not from any shock it may receive. The men who have been lauded and exalted may reveal the weakness of humanity, because they did begin to think that they were more than common humanity; but what then? Will they adhere to error? Here is the test; If, when they see the danger, they flee from it, they show to the world, to angels, and to men, that the citadel of the heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that they will in no case harmonize with selfishness of any description. {GCB, March 1, 1895 par. 2}

This is exactly what I am saying...

Now it only fits what your position, if you take the word "heart" run it through a filter and turn it into "brain"...

Based on two statements...

Whereas this consistently fits with hundreds of statements, that the heart is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

Wait a minute here, are you saying that because there are not hundreds of these quotes, that you can just discard them? No no no, that is not how the SoP is to be used.

You can't just throw them away, you must reconcile them. If you cannot reconcile them, then that means you are not looking at the picture properly. I can reconcile those two quotes with the hundreds of quotes that you use, no problem.

Because I know that the blood pumping muscle to which you refer, is not what we think with. How do I know? Because those two quotes that you would like to disappear, tell me so. And, as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. Since I know that the mind is what we think with, I have no problem understanding what that text is saying. And it reconciles perfectly with what Ellen White says in these two quotes.

The heart is the citadel of the being.(Reflecting Christ 112)

The brain is the citadel of the being. (Reflecting Christ 151)

So the shoe is really on the other foot. You cannot simply discard these quotes. I have no problem reconciling these with those hundreds of quotes you mentioned. It is you that has the problem. You have to explain them.

I can do it, you cannot. The burden is on you my friend, not the other way around.

The only way you can present these quotes is if you think they are totally and utterly infallible Richard.

And that your understanding is totally and utterley correct on this matter.

I personally take the "weight" of the evidence and not the "atoms" when considering a point.

I also start with the bible first as my point of doctrine.

Let us consider something here.

When Ellen White uses the term "citadel", does she ever use that to describe one thing, or is she commenting on multiple things?

For instance:

Is the term "citadel" ever used to link the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Brain or Mind in one quote?

No.

Is the term "citadel" ever used to link the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the heart in one quote?

Yes.

So without knowing what specifically Ellen White had in mind when she was saying this word citadel, I cannot use "3" instances of a use of the word "citadel" to disannul over 20 that are clear and actually deal with the topic we are discussing, because all the points are actually addressed in the quotes I am using, whereas only some of the points are addressed in the quotes you are using.

Do you understand my point?

Mark

[Twilight]

In other words Richard.

Do you have any instance where "mind, citadel and Holy Spirit" are expressed in a quote?

That links the three together?

--------------------

Consider this:

The mind is the "citadel" of the mans thoughts.

The heart is the "citadel" of the mans feelings and desires.

The heart is the "citadel" of the Holy Spirit.

Take these principles and apply them to the quotes and see what happens.

----------------

You see, Ellen White was expressing "language" that conveyed her thoughts, we have to look beyond that language to see the "underlying" understanding that drove that "language".

A person can use the word "citadel" in many different ways, explaining different things.

But that does not limit the use of "citadel" to one "meaning", that links all other usages of that word in that persons writings...

Mark

[Twilight]

-deleted-

I do, because God does...

[Twilight]

So Mark, in this pataphorical world of yours, what does it mean to have a "heavy heart"? Is that to be understood as a real weight gain in the heart organ? Or is to be understood as evidence that the heart contains or is actually burdened by something with tangible and measurable mass and weight?

It is a metaphor of the "hearts" emotional state Tom.

Mark

[Twinkle]

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

-deleted-

I do, because God does...

[Guest]

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

Wow Twinkle, Your first post, and you come up with a gem like this. Thank you, and welcome to the forum.

Mark, if this doesn't spell it out for you, then this whole thread has been a waste of time, because nothing will. You cannot get more explicit than this quote. Here she comes right out and tells you what the word heart means.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

More of the same kind of quotes that Mark has already been given it looks like to me.

[Guest]

No, he hasn't seen anything this direct, or explicit. This ought to do it.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The words "A new heart will I give you" mean "A new mind will I give you."(CT 351)

Wow!

[Twilight]

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

Indeed I have.

She is quoting from:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Do you think this clarification here means that every time "heart" is translated, she is saying it means "mind"?

That it how some use this statement...

---------------

But does the bible differentiate between heart and mind?

1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, [that] shall do according to [that] which [is] in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

If we are to apply this to "every" use of the word heart in the bible, then God is telling us to love God with all our mind and all our mind.

Do we have two minds?

No...

There is a differentiation for a reason...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

You also have to be careful when using the SOP for proof texting.

Because here it does not say just the mind, it says the "whole being" when it says "heart".

When Jesus speaks of the new heart, He means the mind, the life, the whole being. To have a change of heart is to withdraw the affections from the world, and fasten them upon Christ. To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. What is the sign of a new heart?--a changed life. There is a daily, hourly dying to selfishness and pride. {AG 100.2}

So I would say, Ellen White was not as specific on that point as some would like to believe...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Or maybe she is confused here?

Every church member needs to feel the converting power of God upon heart and mind; then spiritual development will be experienced. Christ has for every true believer grace sufficient to make him a son of God. Angels are working in behalf of God's people, that Satan may not gain the victory over them. . . . {UL 184.2}

The Holy Spirit brings power that enables man to overcome. It is through the agency of the Spirit that the government of Satan is to be subdued. It is the Spirit that convinces of sin, and, with the consent of the human being, expels sin from the heart. The mind is then brought under a new law--the royal law of liberty. {OHC 152.3}

Anyone can "proof text" from Ellen White's writings by taking one quote and trying to use it to translate all others.

But that does not establish doctrine.

Why is it no one has been able to argue the position that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind?

Why is it that no one has been able to show that the "Holy Spirit" dwells in the mind?

Why has no one been able to show that heart means "mind" from the bible and the bible alone?

Simple.

Because it is not there.

If it was, someone would have been able to show it.

But no individual has been able.

The only thing that has been done, is proof texting from SOP, using a sum total of about four quotes to build a doctrine on, ignoring every other quote (the vast majority) and the bible itself, which contain numberless quotes that differentiates between the heart and mind...

Mark :-)

[Guest]

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

Mark, so let me get this straight. You're thinking that Ellen White is saying this is the only text in the Bible where heart means mind. And that all the rest of them mean something other than mind?

Give me a break.

All the texts you use where it says heart and mind in the same sentence, is just referring to the same thing using two different words interchangably. There are many many scriptures that do the same thing using other words.

It appears to me that "You think with the heart muscle somehow" is just what you are determined to believe, no matter what. So go ahead. I don't suppose it will cause you to be lost.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted By: Twinkle

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

Indeed I have.

She is quoting from:

Eze 36:26

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twinkle

Have you ever come across this statement before Mark?

"The words "A new heart will I give you" mean, "A new mind will I give you." This change of heart is always attended by a clear conception of Christian duty, an understanding of truth. The clearness of our views of truth will be proportionate to our understanding of the Word of God. He who gives the Scriptures close, prayerful attention will gain clear comprehension and sound judgment, as if in turning to God he had reached a higher grade of intelligence." -RH, Nov 10, 1904. {1MCP 95.1}

B

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength….

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

heart

soul

might

mind

strength

understanding

it looks like the bible writers were trying to convey a thought, not a word.

they were using figurative language to get an idea, a concept, across to us.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

So Mark, in this pataphorical world of yours, what does it mean to have a "heavy heart"? Is that to be understood as a real weight gain in the heart organ? Or is to be understood as evidence that the heart contains or is actually burdened by something with tangible and measurable mass and weight?

It is a metaphor of the "hearts" emotional state Tom.

Mark

So, metaphorical for this specific expression, but not for the whole idea of the heart? As with the quote from EGW, you just pick and choose what suits your theory and change the rules for what doesn't fit... You need your kidney's examined, metaphorically speaking of course... At least that's what my gut tells me.

The extent to which you have taken this is very pataphoric.

Tom