Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Now if we believe the Holy Spirit dwells in the "body", why would we then deny the possibility that the actual seat in the body is the heart?

Body = ok / Heart = not ok?

Mark :-)

Why are you obsessing about this?? You are trying to make the Holy Spirit into a static object. It isn't static.

Why do you get the impression that I am trying to make the Holy Spirit a static object?

The Holy Spirit first dwells in the heart, it is from there He launches out and captures the wrest of a man...

God has to sit on the throne of the heart, before he can rule the man.

He has to have control of the desire, lusts, motives, love etc, to rule.

Not the ear of the page boy who stands by the throne...

Now I do admit, I am obsessed with my God...

---------------

But you did not answer my question.

If the Holy Spirit is capable of dwelling in the body, why is it then "wrong" to believe that the heart is the place of His Throne, so to speak?

If God dwells in the whole body, He does indeed dwell in the heart.

So if God does indeed dwell in the body, then lets us know that their is one particular part of the body that He has decided is important, who are we to argue?

Mark :-)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sure, the Holy Spirit can dwell in your heart. It can dwell anywhere in the body.

why is it then "wrong" to believe that the heart is the place of His Throne, so to speak?

I didn't say it was wrong. I said you seemed to be obsessing about it. That's not good.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So if God does indeed dwell in the body, then lets us know that their is one particular part of the body that He has decided is important, who are we to argue

Why do you need to know where in the body the Holy Spirit is? You are obsessing over something that is a non-issue. For some reason you think you need to know exactly where the Holy Spirit is at a given time. I don't think that's anyone's business, but God's.

[Woody]

Quote:

I said you seemed to be obsessing about it. That's not good.

TU

[teresaq]

I am also concerned that the two quotes that have been supplied are being presented out of their original context. Can we have the context also?

[Twilight]

Sure, the Holy Spirit can dwell in your heart. It can dwell anywhere in the body.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

why is it then "wrong" to believe that the heart is the place of His Throne, so to speak?

I didn't say it was wrong. I said you seemed to be obsessing about it. That's not good.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So if God does indeed dwell in the body, then lets us know that their is one particular part of the body that He has decided is important, who are we to argue

Why do you need to know where in the body the Holy Spirit is? You are obsessing over something that is a non-issue. For some reason you think you need to know exactly where the Holy Spirit is at a given time. I don't think that's anyone's business, but God's.

It is Gods business, and if He has decided to reveal that to us, through His word, then we need to take note of the points He is trying to show us...

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am also concerned that the two quotes that have been supplied are being presented out of their original context. Can we have the context also?

you will let him know of the "assumptions" behind them? wouldnt that mean you are making an assumption that he is making an assumption?

in reality arent you the one making assumptions of any who disagree with you?

and why wont you deal with the bible verses presented for consideration instead of accusing me of being "contentious" and wont deal with me unless i become "respectful"?

I have no reason to fight with you Teresa, if you choose to try to pick a fight, then the only thing I can do is avoid that by not engaging with you.

Your posts come across as aggressive, critical and combative, I choose not to engage with them.

[karl]

"That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels." The Review and Herald, November 6, 1900

[Twilight]

"That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels." The Review and Herald, November 6, 1900

I agree with this totally Karl.

The point I am making is that God launches the "beach head" on the heart and from there, once He has claimed that He goes on and captures the rest of man (including the mind). :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient.

What is it that controls the service of the entire human organism? It's the head. The head controls, and the body follows.

We have this model for the church. Christ is the head, and the church is the body. We are the "body of Christ." Why? Because He is the head, and directs, and the body follows.

If the Holy Spirit has control of the mind (by which we mean, not in the sense of demon possession, where the possessed person does not think for themselves, but if coerced to do the things the demon wishes, but controlled in the sense that we act in harmony with the direction of the Holy Spirit) then He has control of the whole organism. This is the way that all parts work in perfect harmony. Once the head is converted, it controls the rest of the body.

For example, consider the foot. What would it mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in the foot? It could only mean one thing, which is that the foot does the will of the Holy Spirit. But the food cannot act on its own. It's impossible to say that Joe is converted, except for his foot. This can only be a figure of speech. For example, we can say that the feet transport us to places we shouldn't go. So to say our feet are not converted, or the Holy Spirit does not dwell in our feet, would mean that our feet take us places we shouldn't go. But whose fault is this? Is it the fault of the foot, or of the head? Of the head, of course. It would mean that this are of the person's life, wherever the feet are taking the person that he shouldn't go, is not yet under the control of the Holy Spirit.

Similarly if we say that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in someone's heart, that means that the person has not given themselves fully to Christ. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit physically living in the chest region of a person, a concept which is totally nonsensical.

[karl]

Quote:

God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient.

What is it that controls the service of the entire human organism? It's the head. The head controls, and the body follows.

I agree that if God doesn't have the control center, He don't have that which is being controlled. But please remember that there is influence by the body on the head. A sick stomach can make the mind more irritable.

Our Adventist health message applies to all parts of the body as well as the head.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Our Adventist health message applies to all parts of the body as well as the head.

Of course, and the reason why is precisely because it is the head that controls. For example:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man, and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system, lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind.(CH 616)

This is the reason the health message is so important to us as SDA's. Other denominations believe that God communicates with man independently from the body, by means of an eternal soul or spirit which exists independently from the body. We don't believe that. We believe the only means of communication from God to man is by means of the brain. Therefore it's important that the body be maintained in a healthy condition, so that the mind is free to receive communication from God.

[Twilight]

Quote:

God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient.

What is it that controls the service of the entire human organism? It's the head. The head controls, and the body follows.

We have this model for the church. Christ is the head, and the church is the body. We are the "body of Christ." Why? Because He is the head, and directs, and the body follows.

If the Holy Spirit has control of the mind (by which we mean, not in the sense of demon possession, where the possessed person does not think for themselves, but if coerced to do the things the demon wishes, but controlled in the sense that we act in harmony with the direction of the Holy Spirit) then He has control of the whole organism. This is the way that all parts work in perfect harmony. Once the head is converted, it controls the rest of the body.

For example, consider the foot. What would it mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in the foot? It could only mean one thing, which is that the foot does the will of the Holy Spirit. But the food cannot act on its own. It's impossible to say that Joe is converted, except for his foot. This can only be a figure of speech. For example, we can say that the feet transport us to places we shouldn't go. So to say our feet are not converted, or the Holy Spirit does not dwell in our feet, would mean that our feet take us places we shouldn't go. But whose fault is this? Is it the fault of the foot, or of the head? Of the head, of course. It would mean that this are of the person's life, wherever the feet are taking the person that he shouldn't go, is not yet under the control of the Holy Spirit.

Similarly if we say that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in someone's heart, that means that the person has not given themselves fully to Christ. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit physically living in the chest region of a person, a concept which is totally nonsensical.

Behold I stand at the door and knock. <- God's approach to us.

If any man hear my voice and open the door. <- The exercise of our reason, then the exercise of the will to open the door.

I will come into him and sup with him. <- The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith..."

So yes the mind plays an important role, the will is paramount, but that does not negate the simple fact that Christ dwells in the heart.

The mind is the gateway, through which access to the heart is gained, by God and Satan.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Quote:

Our Adventist health message applies to all parts of the body as well as the head.

Of course, and the reason why is precisely because it is the head that controls. For example:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man, and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system, lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind.(CH 616)

This is the reason the health message is so important to us as SDA's. Other denominations believe that God communicates with man independently from the body, by means of an eternal soul or spirit which exists independently from the body. We don't believe that. We believe the only means of communication from God to man is by means of the brain. Therefore it's important that the body be maintained in a healthy condition, so that the mind is free to receive communication from God.

I have to agree with this.

[Guest]

Moral principle is exceedingly weak when it conflicts with established habit. Solemn messages from Heaven cannot forcibly impress the heart that is not fortified against the indulgence of this degrading vice. The sensitive nerves of the brain have lost their healthy tone by morbid excitation to gratify an unnatural desire for sensual indulgence. The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man, {CH 616}

Here she uses heart and brain interchangably again sky. ..uh, I mean Mark. What will it take, a burning bush in your front yard?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Behold I stand at the door and knock. <- God's approach to us.

If any man hear my voice and open the door. <- The exercise of our reason, then the exercise of the will to open the door.

I will come into him and sup with him. <- The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith..."

So yes the mind plays an important role, the will is paramount, but that does not negate the simple fact that Christ dwells in the heart.

Which means what? That is, obviously Christ cannot literally dwell in the heart, since He wouldn't fit, being a flesh and blood person, while the heart is a muscle. So what does this mean?

Quote:

The mind is the gateway, through which access to the heart is gained, by God and Satan.

This is fine, as long as we don't think this is talking about a muscle.

[John317]

I would be interested to see the research where Humans have been given Pig hearts and are alive, has that happened?

But I would like to see the "pig heart transplants" research...

It is done at Loma Linda University Medical Center. Dr. Bailey is the doctor who does it. The pig-hearts are used only until a human heart becomes available.

As far as I know, there's no indication at all that people with pig-hearts take on piggish characteristics, any more than usual, I mean. -

[Twilight]

Moral principle is exceedingly weak when it conflicts with established habit. Solemn messages from Heaven cannot forcibly impress the heart that is not fortified against the indulgence of this degrading vice. The sensitive nerves of the brain have lost their healthy tone by morbid excitation to gratify an unnatural desire for sensual indulgence. The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man, {CH 616}

Here she uses heart and brain interchangably again sky. ..uh, I mean Mark. What will it take, a burning bush in your front yard?

No.

It would take a loving caring exposition of a Spirit led position.

It would never be aided by sarcasm, that is more likely to push someone into a determined position.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

any more than usual, I mean

Good clarification.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Behold I stand at the door and knock. <- God's approach to us.

If any man hear my voice and open the door. <- The exercise of our reason, then the exercise of the will to open the door.

I will come into him and sup with him. <- The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith..."

So yes the mind plays an important role, the will is paramount, but that does not negate the simple fact that Christ dwells in the heart.

Which means what? That is, obviously Christ cannot literally dwell in the heart, since He wouldn't fit, being a flesh and blood person, while the heart is a muscle. So what does this mean?

Quote:

The mind is the gateway, through which access to the heart is gained, by God and Satan.

This is fine, as long as we don't think this is talking about a muscle.

Christ dwells in the heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

He brings everything of Christ, with Him.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would be interested to see the research where Humans have been given Pig hearts and are alive, has that happened?

But I would like to see the "pig heart transplants" research...

It is done at Loma Linda University Medical Center. Dr. Bailey is the doctor who does it. The pig-hearts are used only until a human heart becomes available.

As far as I know, there's no indication at all that people with pig-hearts take on piggish characteristics, any more than usual, I mean. -

Could you supply a source please John317?

[pnattmbtc]

Christ dwells in the heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

He brings everything of Christ, with Him.

This obviously isn't literal in any physical sense. "Everything of Christ," I mean. There is nothing whatsoever physical about this. There couldn't possibly be. Christ is literally in heaven. The Holy Spirit does not bring any of Christ's hairs or other body parts.

This has spiritual meaning, not physical meaning.

The "everything of Him" is dealing with His attributes, His personality traits. For example, Christ is loving, kind, patient, compassionate, understanding, forgiving, etc. These are the things which the Holy Spirit brings.

The are not things which can dwell in our physical body parts in any literal way. However, through our minds, God, through the Holy Spirit, can communicate these attributes of Christ to us.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Christ dwells in the heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

He brings everything of Christ, with Him.

This obviously isn't literal in any physical sense. "Everything of Christ," I mean. There is nothing whatsoever physical about this. There couldn't possibly be. Christ is literally in heaven. The Holy Spirit does not bring any of Christ's hairs or other body parts.

This has spiritual meaning, not physical meaning.

The "everything of Him" is dealing with His attributes, His personality traits. For example, Christ is loving, kind, patient, compassionate, understanding, forgiving, etc. These are the things which the Holy Spirit brings.

The are not things which can dwell in our physical body parts in any literal way. However, through our minds, God, through the Holy Spirit, can communicate these attributes of Christ to us.

Again, you are confusing the writing of the law on the mind and heart, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit my friend.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark:Christ dwells in the heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

He brings everything of Christ, with Him.

p:This obviously isn't literal in any physical sense. "Everything of Christ," I mean. There is nothing whatsoever physical about this. There couldn't possibly be. Christ is literally in heaven. The Holy Spirit does not bring any of Christ's hairs or other body parts.

This has spiritual meaning, not physical meaning.

The "everything of Him" is dealing with His attributes, His personality traits. For example, Christ is loving, kind, patient, compassionate, understanding, forgiving, etc. These are the things which the Holy Spirit brings.

The are not things which can dwell in our physical body parts in any literal way. However, through our minds, God, through the Holy Spirit, can communicate these attributes of Christ to us.

Mark:Again, you are confusing the writing of the law on the mind and heart, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit my friend.

In the above my main point was that saying that Christ dwells in our heart is dealing with spiritual truth, not physical truth. Your response indicates that you disagree with this, and you somehow reason that because I assert that Christ dwells in our heart is a spiritual truth, rather than a physical one, this means I'm confusing the writing of the law on the mind and the heart with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This seems like rather odd reasoning to me. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning?

Also, I can't think of anything I wrote which you would want to disagree with. Please quote from what I wrote above (highlighting the specific thing you disagree with) and tell me what you disagree with and why.

[teresaq]

I am also concerned that the two quotes that have been supplied are being presented out of their original context. Can we have the context also?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have no reason to fight with you Teresa, if you choose to try to pick a fight, then the only thing I can do is avoid that by not engaging with you.

Your posts come across as aggressive, critical and combative, I choose not to engage with them.

i notice the only ones saying that are the ones who disagree with me.

Maybe those are the only ones you take that tone with.