Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[pnattmbtc]

I had been thinking the same thoughts as you shared, Tom, but didn't know how to articulate them. You expressed the thoughts I had had very clearly.

[Guest]

The second quote supplied dealt with the heart being the "whole being", not just the mind Richard:

When Jesus speaks of the new heart , He means the mind, the life, the whole being.

Do you agree that here, SOP states it is "more" than the mind.

[teresaq]

my post:

Originally Posted By: Teresa(sda)

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength….

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

heart

soul

might

mind

strength

understanding

it looks like the bible writers were trying to convey a thought, not a word.

they were using figurative language to get an idea, a concept, across to us.

your (lack of an appropriate) response to the points i brought up:

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

heart

soul

might

mind

strength

understanding

it looks like the bible writers were trying to convey a thought, not a word.

they were using figurative language to get an idea, a concept, across to us.

So you are no longer insisting on a literal interpretation of the word "mind" then Teresa?

and then say:

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Please also note the bible has been a most unwelcome visitor to this discussion so far...

[/quote']

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You did not actually answer my question Teresa.

So you broke the flow of discussion down.

mark, instead of addressing my point, you have pointed the discussion in a different direction.

Quote:

tom said: If you don't have a good answer, just slap an inflammatory label on to divert attention from the fact that you have no valid response to give...

i think we are all seeing this, mark. when you dont have an answer you do the "attacking", while accusing others of whatever appears to pop into your mind (not heart ).

the bible verses i have posted several times (that "everyone avoids")regarding the exact same point say to me that the bible writers were conveying an idea, or concept of how devoted, dedicated to God, His character, and our fellowman we should be. they were not trying to show that God somehow makes Himself able to literally, physically live in our heart.

all the figurative language Jesus used was to convey that idea, of being entirely given over to God, since:

Quote:

The will of every human being should be under the discipline and control of God, for it is a dangerous element if exercised in selfish schemes. The will of the human agent is not to be given into the control of any other man. When merged into the will of other men, it is misleading. The will of man is safe only when united with the will of God. When merged into the will of God it is a will joined to conscience, rightly exercised in advancing the honour and glory of God. The Lord has purchased the will, the affections, the mind, the soul, and the strength. Thus He has taken the whole man. Under the supervision of the divine power the will is to be cultivated to become strong, prompt, firm. It is not to fail nor become discouraged. {BEcho, July 20, 1896 par. 5}

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

my post:

your (lack of an appropriate) response to the points i brought up:

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

heart

soul

might

mind

strength

understanding

it looks like the bible writers were trying to convey a thought, not a word.

they were using figurative language to get an idea, a concept, across to us.

So you are no longer insisting on a literal interpretation of the word "mind" then Teresa?

and then say:

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Please also note the bible has been a most unwelcome visitor to this discussion so far...

[/quote']

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You did not actually answer my question Teresa.

So you broke the flow of discussion down.

mark, instead of addressing my point, you have pointed the discussion in a different direction.

Quote:

tom said: If you don't have a good answer, just slap an inflammatory label on to divert attention from the fact that you have no valid response to give...

i think we are all seeing this, mark. when you dont have an answer you do the "attacking", while accusing others of whatever appears to pop into your mind (not heart ).

the bible verses i have posted several times (that "everyone avoids")regarding the exact same point say to me that the bible writers were conveying an idea, or concept of how devoted, dedicated to God, His character, and our fellowman we should be. they were not trying to show that God somehow makes Himself able to literally, physically live in our heart.

all the figurative language Jesus used was to convey that idea, of being entirely given over to God, since:

Quote:

The will of every human being should be under the discipline and control of God, for it is a dangerous element if exercised in selfish schemes. The will of the human agent is not to be given into the control of any other man. When merged into the will of other men, it is misleading. The will of man is safe only when united with the will of God. When merged into the will of God it is a will joined to conscience, rightly exercised in advancing the honour and glory of God. The Lord has purchased the will, the affections, the mind, the soul, and the strength. Thus He has taken the whole man. Under the supervision of the divine power the will is to be cultivated to become strong, prompt, firm. It is not to fail nor become discouraged. {BEcho, July 20, 1896 par. 5}

You still did not answer my question Teresa.

When the bible says "mind" is it literal or figurative?

[teresaq]

and finally, mark, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are too pure and holy to dwell in any part of our fallen bodies without us instantly ceasing to exist. i dont doubt that even the angels and unfallen beings would also cease to exist if any of the "Powers" tried to exist in them.

God does not exist in His creation, such as a chair or tree, or us. He is above and over all His creation while intimately involved in it.

[pnattmbtc]

When the bible says "mind" is it literal or figurative?

What does this mean? "Mind" is not like "heart" because "mind" is not a physical thing, whereas "heart" may or may not be, depending upon whether one has in mind (no pun intended) the muscle or not. There's nothing analogous to this in regards to the mind.

Teresa (and the rest of us) have been consistent in our use of "heart," in terms of a concept (the same as "mind") as opposed to a physical thing.

The mind is not a physical thing, which is why I'm not seeing the sense of your question.

[Twilight]

and finally, mark, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are too pure and holy to dwell in any part of our fallen bodies without us instantly ceasing to exist. i dont doubt that even the angels and unfallen beings would also cease to exist if any of the "Powers" tried to exist in them.

God does not exist in His creation, such as a chair or tree, or us. He is above and over all His creation while intimately involved in it.

Then you have denied the scripture sister:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When the bible says "mind" is it literal or figurative?

What does this mean? "Mind" is not like "heart" because "mind" is not a physical thing, whereas "heart" may or may not be, depending upon whether one has in mind (no pun intended) the muscle or not. There's nothing analogous to this in regards to the mind.

Teresa (and the rest of us) have been consistent in our use of "heart," in terms of a concept (the same as "mind") as opposed to a physical thing.

The mind is not a physical thing, which is why I'm not seeing the sense of your question.

So what is the mind and what is the heart Pnat?

If they are both abstract, then they are both applicable individually and mean seperate things.

Can you explain what they are?

And what is the difference?

[Twilight]

The Jews rejected Jesus because He came in a form they could not accept.

Now we have Christians rejecting Him again, when they reject the promised gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...

The literal spiritual presence of God in us, IS the ultimate goal for Christians.

It is the truth that we all so desperately need.

To deny it, is to deny Christianity.

[Twilight]

The apostles thought they "could do it".

But it was only when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that they had the power to walk with God.

You cannot do it folks, without the Holy Spirit, you will talk about it, preach about it, tell others off for not walking it, but will fail and fail and fail.

[pnattmbtc]

So what is the mind and what is the heart Pnat?

[Guest]

and finally, mark, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are too pure and holy to dwell in any part of our fallen bodies without us instantly ceasing to exist. i dont doubt that even the angels and unfallen beings would also cease to exist if any of the "Powers" tried to exist in them.

God does not exist in His creation, such as a chair or tree, or us. He is above and over all His creation while intimately involved in it.

No He has no need to be in a chair or tree, but the Bible and the SOP both support that the Holy Spirit does actually dwell in a person.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

do not lose sight of this fact, that unless you put on Christ, and His Spirit dwells in you, you are slaves of sin and of Satan. {SW 13}

The vitalizing power of the Spirit of Christ dwelling in the mortal body binds every believing soul to Jesus Christ. {CC 229}

[teresaq]

you havent read the pioneers, have you? :)

[pnattmbtc]

This is getting back to the same question as to whether literal, physical things are being talked about, or concepts.

The Bible also says that Christ dwells in our hearts. Now this is clearly talking about a concept. Christ, as a physical human being, dwells literally in heaven. Our hearts, literally, are muscles. Christ, physically, does not dwell, physically, in our physical hearts. However, the concept that Christ dwells in our heart is completely true.

The same exact point applies in regards to the Holy Spirit.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So what is the mind and what is the heart Pnat?

It depends upon the context. In general, "mind" and "heart" mean what they mean in the following examples:

1)"I love you with all my mind."

2)"I love you with all my heart."

The first depicts a love which is reasonable, and involves the intellect. It emphasizes a thinking response, a choice, a decision.

The second depicts a love which is involving the emotions and affections.

Quote:

If they are both abstract, then they are both applicable individually and mean separate things.

I don't know why you're saying "abstract." "Not physical" or "concepts" would be better choices. Let's go with "concepts." That would make your statement, "If they are both concepts, then they are both applicable individually and mean separate things," which may or may not be the case. Two different but related concepts can refer to the same thing or different things, depending upon the context. Concepts are like this. They can be flexible, and depend upon the context in order to be understood. In particular, the words "mind" and "heart" are very rich concepts. Indeed, many books have been written regarding these concepts. What these means are among the deepest questions humans can delve into.

Quote:

Can you explain what they are?

It depends upon the context. I gave an example above.

Quote:

And what is the difference?

Same point.

So you are saying that "mind" equates to "thought".

And "heart" equates to emotions/desires.

Is that correct Pnat, do you agree with that differentiation?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

and finally, mark, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are too pure and holy to dwell in any part of our fallen bodies without us instantly ceasing to exist. i dont doubt that even the angels and unfallen beings would also cease to exist if any of the "Powers" tried to exist in them.

God does not exist in His creation, such as a chair or tree, or us. He is above and over all His creation while intimately involved in it.

No He has no need to be in a chair or tree, but the Bible and the SOP both support that the Holy Spirit does actually dwell in a person.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

do not lose sight of this fact, that unless you put on Christ, and His Spirit dwells in you, you are slaves of sin and of Satan. {SW 13}

The vitalizing power of the Spirit of Christ dwelling in the mortal body binds every believing soul to Jesus Christ. {CC 229}

You see Richard, I find your position most interesting.

You are willing to recognise the Holy Spirit dwells in the physical body.

But you do not admit that there is a "seat" or "central" place for that dwelling.

We both agree that He dwells in us.

But you think it is where?

[Twilight]

you havent read the pioneers, have you?

Do they supercede Paul and Jesus?

[Twilight]

This is getting back to the same question as to whether literal, physical things are being talked about, or concepts.

The Bible also says that Christ dwells in our hearts. Now this is clearly talking about a concept. Christ, as a physical human being, dwells literally in heaven. Our hearts, literally, are muscles. Christ, physically, does not dwell, physically, in our physical hearts. However, the concept that Christ dwells in our heart is completely true.

The same exact point applies in regards to the Holy Spirit.

Again, you are coming back to the point that the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is a non-literal event.

Ignoring the plain statements of scripture:

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So I ask you this question pnat:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[Guest]

you havent read the pioneers, have you?

Sure, but proof comes from the Bible and SOP, not the pioneers. I guess you haven't read much Ellen White have you?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

So you are saying that "mind" equates to "thought".

No.

Quote:

And "heart" equates to emotions/desires.

No.

Quote:

Is that correct Pnat, do you agree with that differentiation?

No. As I pointed out, these are very rich concepts, about which many books have been written. To pigeon-hole them as questioned above would not do these concepts justice. However, I would say that often when the word "mind" is used, the cognitive qualities are what is being regarded, whereas when "heart" is used, it's often regarding the emotions/affections/desires/motives, etc.

However, "mind," for example, can be all-encompassing, involving what is in some circumstances covered by the concept of "heart." For example, "Mind refers to the aspects of intellect and consciousness manifested as combinations of thought, perception, memory, emotion, will and imagination" (from wiki).

[Twilight]

This simple text should be prayerfully studied by any that are in doubt as to the reality of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I do not know how God could have made it any more clear?

Is there any way He could have expressed it better than this?

[teresaq]

yes, the bible is a spiritual book.

the faster we learn that we dont have a clue what God is like or what He is trying to teach us, the faster He is able to start teaching us.

if we decide we understand the words on the page, God will never be able to teach us anything.

[pnattmbtc]

Again, you are coming back to the point that the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is a non-literal event.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

yes, the bible is a spiritual book.

the faster we learn that we dont have a clue what God is like or what He is trying to teach us, the faster He is able to start teaching us.

This is a good point.

The teachings of Jesus come to mind. Often what He said was not understood for the reasons you're pointing out. In speaking of the Kingdom of God, He asked the question, "To what should I compare it," and the SOP brings out that He couldn't think of anything; it's unlike anything of this world. Yet so many understand it, and Scripture, as if it were.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

you havent read the pioneers, have you?

Sure, but proof comes from the Bible and SOP, not the pioneers. I guess you haven't read much Ellen White have you?