Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[Woody]

Quote:

Your posts come across as aggressive, critical and combative, I choose not to engage with them.

Interesting. What would you call someone who tells you that you are not going to be saved? Would that be called aggressive or critical or combative?

[teresaq]

I have no reason to fight with you Teresa, if you choose to try to pick a fight, then the only thing I can do is avoid that by not engaging with you.

Your posts come across as aggressive, critical and combative, I choose not to engage with them.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

since it is the ones disagreeing with me perhaps it they who take that "tone". not a few identify you as quite hurtful many times. instead of rebutting the issue you attack the person.

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Redwood, you just oppose truth wherever you see it don't you.

perhaps we should start a thread where we collect these. i wonder how many pages you might fill on a busy day.

we could do that with each person with this "custom".

It's interesting to note the type of peoples who's personal attacks and rule breaking are present and remaining on this forum.

[teresaq]

Redwood, you just oppose truth wherever you see it don't you.

[Guest]

It's interesting to note the type of peoples who's personal attacks and rule breaking are present and remaining on this forum.

Ain't it though. Like that newcomer you just attacked because he was quoting Ellen White.

[Woody]

Please provide the quote. Just blanket accusations are not of value for someone to learn.

[teresaq]

is that the truth, richard? i was there and read the posts. was redwood "attacking" because of the egw quotes? or ...? lets be truthful, now.

[Guest]

that is why a thread where those posts are put might be a very good idea. its like hearing how one sounds from a recording. quite eye-opening.

I think if you could hear how you sound it would be quite eye opening too. That may be a good idea.

[Guest]

The guy wasn't doing anything else, but quoting Ellen White.

[Woody]

just the quotes man ... just the quotes.

Provide the proof. We are all waiting.

[Guest]

It would take a loving caring exposition of a Spirit led position.

But I said it with love. Sometimes I think I love too much.

[teresaq]

The guy wasn't doing anything else, but quoting Ellen White.

that isnt the truth, richard. he was saying something besides just quoting ellen white.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The guy wasn't doing anything else, but quoting Ellen White.

that isnt the truth, richard. he was saying something besides just quoting ellen white.

What was he doing wrong? He was posting Ellen White, and trying to explain to RW why, because RW was attacking him. He didn't say anything that wasn't right. I read the whole thread.

[Twilight]

Pnat :-)

Do you have one statement from SOP where the "heart" is identified as a "faculty of the mind"?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It would take a loving caring exposition of a Spirit led position.

But I said it with love. Sometimes I think I love too much.

Love is gentle Richard. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Pnat :-)

Do you have one statement from SOP where the "heart" is identified as a "faculty of the mind"?

I didn't say the heart is the faculty of the mind. The statements with the interchangeable use of "heart" and "brain" established the point I was actually making (as well as the statement saying that all communication from heaven comes through the brain).

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Pnat :-)

Do you have one statement from SOP where the "heart" is identified as a "faculty of the mind"?

I didn't say the heart is the faculty of the mind. The statements with the interchangeable use of "heart" and "brain" established the point I was actually making (as well as the statement saying that all communication from heaven comes through the brain).

You have built a doctrine on three statements from Ellen White?

Three isolated statements, by which you translate the whole bible?

Do you not think that dangerous?

[Twilight]

When you say heart means mind, are you not saying that the "heart" is a term for the faculty of the mind Pnat?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I didn't say the heart is the faculty of the mind. The statements with the interchangeable use of "heart" and "brain" established the point I was actually making (as well as the statement saying that all communication from heaven comes through the brain).

You have built a doctrine on three statements from Ellen White?

Three isolated statements, by which you translate the whole bible?

Do you not think that dangerous?

Let me offer you another quote:

But there is the message all the same; it is not changed; it trembles not from any shock it may receive. The men who have been lauded and exalted may reveal the weakness of humanity, because they did begin to think that they were more than common humanity; but what then? Will they adhere to error? Here is the test; If, when they see the danger, they flee from it, they show to the world, to angels, and to men, that the citadel of the heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that they will in no case harmonize with selfishness of any description. {GCB, March 1, 1895 par. 2}

This is exactly what I am saying...

Now it only fits what your position, if you take the word "heart" run it through a filter and turn it into "brain"...

Based on two statements...

Whereas this consistently fits with hundreds of statements, that the heart is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Pnat :-)

T:Do you have one statement from SOP where the "heart" is identified as a "faculty of the mind"?

p:I didn't say the heart is the faculty of the mind. The statements with the interchangeable use of "heart" and "brain" established the point I was actually making (as well as the statement saying that all communication from heaven comes through the brain).

T:You have built a doctrine on three statements from Ellen White?

Three isolated statements, by which you translate the whole bible?

Do you not think that dangerous?

I didn't say I built a doctrine, but that these statements established the point I was trying to make.

[pnattmbtc]

When you say heart means mind, are you not saying that the "heart" is a term for the faculty of the mind Pnat?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When you say heart means mind, are you not saying that the "heart" is a term for the faculty of the mind Pnat?

I said something like the heart is the seat of the affections and desires, the innermost part of a man where he does his deepest thinking. I said the things like affections and desires, and thinking, are activities of the mind.

Quote:

T:But there is the message all the same; it is not changed; it trembles not from any shock it may receive. The men who have been lauded and exalted may reveal the weakness of humanity, because they did begin to think that they were more than common humanity; but what then? Will they adhere to error? Here is the test; If, when they see the danger, they flee from it, they show to the world, to angels, and to men, that the citadel of the heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that they will in no case harmonize with selfishness of any description. {GCB, March 1, 1895 par. 2}

This is exactly what I am saying...

Now it only fits what your position, if you take the word "heart" run it through a filter and turn it into "brain"...

Based on two statements...

Whereas this consistently fits with hundreds of statements, that the heart is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

I think where we're differing is in what it means to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in the heart. Both of us agree this is true, as I think everyone on the forum does; it just means different things to different people. You, as I understand what you've said, don't really have any idea what this means, but accept it by faith, and believe it involves the literal blood-pumping muscle. I've explained it in terms of the COL 312 quote, which I'll repeat here:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

I've said that the SOP has said that God uses many figures to explain the Plan of Salvation, and that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or saying that Christ dwells in our heart by faith, is one of these. I think it describes the "John 17" experience, as karl puts it.

We see that when Jesus spoke of being in the Father, and the Father being in Him, that this had to do with Christ's doing the Father's will.

There's the expression of eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood, which means the same thing (i.e., to believe Christ's sayings, and do the will of the Father).

This is turning out to be a long post, but I wanted to make one more point, which has to do with God's being with us. The only way we can perceive that a person is near us is through our mind. We perceive by sight, hearing, etc. that a person is with us. How do we perceive that God is with us? Also by the mind. That's the only way. God must communicate to the "sensitive nerves of the brain" that He is with us. He speaks to us, we hear Him, and from this perceive that He is with us.

Now God is omnipresent. He has to be everywhere, because without His presence, nothing could exist. So how is God with a believer in a sense different than how He is with an unbeliever? Physically? No. Spiritually. The difference is precisely that which is communicated by His speaking to our minds. He's not physically with us differently, by dwelling physically in our chests or kidneys in some way we can't understand, but He communicates to our minds, and this is what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is dealing with, the close communion between God and the believer. It's the same concept that Jesus spoke of when He spoke of being in the Father, and the Father being in Him, and when He spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

I understand you now.

You believe that God is already in everything already, so it does not matter or make a difference if there is a specific "manifestation" within?

Other than a mental awareness of that reality?

-------------

If this is your view, then why would God specify a distinct Christian experience?

That this manifestation is given specifically to believing Christians.

There is a specific manifestation of the presence of God within the believer, that the Bible reveals to us.

[pnattmbtc]

I understand you now.

[Guest]

Let me offer you another quote:

But there is the message all the same; it is not changed; it trembles not from any shock it may receive. The men who have been lauded and exalted may reveal the weakness of humanity, because they did begin to think that they were more than common humanity; but what then? Will they adhere to error? Here is the test; If, when they see the danger, they flee from it, they show to the world, to angels, and to men, that the citadel of the heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that they will in no case harmonize with selfishness of any description. {GCB, March 1, 1895 par. 2}

This is exactly what I am saying...

Now it only fits what your position, if you take the word "heart" run it through a filter and turn it into "brain"...

Based on two statements...

Whereas this consistently fits with hundreds of statements, that the heart is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

Wait a minute here, are you saying that because there are not hundreds of these quotes, that you can just discard them? No no no, that is not how the SoP is to be used.

You can't just throw them away, you must reconcile them. If you cannot reconcile them, then that means you are not looking at the picture properly. I can reconcile those two quotes with the hundreds of quotes that you use, no problem.

Because I know that the blood pumping muscle to which you refer, is not what we think with. How do I know? Because those two quotes that you would like to disappear, tell me so. And, as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. Since I know that the mind is what we think with, I have no problem understanding what that text is saying. And it reconciles perfectly with what Ellen White says in these two quotes.

The heart is the citadel of the being.(Reflecting Christ 112)

The brain is the citadel of the being. (Reflecting Christ 151)

So the shoe is really on the other foot. You cannot simply discard these quotes. I have no problem reconciling these with those hundreds of quotes you mentioned. It is you that has the problem. You have to explain them.

I can do it, you cannot. The burden is on you my friend, not the other way around.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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