Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[Dr. Rich]

Years ago, while yet a rookie on the police department, the Secret Service taught a class on how to spot a counterfeit 20 dollar note.

They passed out counterfeit bills to the class and asked us to find the real one. Most of us thought we had the real one, but they never did pass out a real one at that time.

Yes, a real one is absolute and singular and there is no way one can have any relative thoughts or ideas about it. And you couldn't argue that just because most of the class and the public would accept a counterfeit one, that it therefore must be a real one for that person. No-a counterfeit is always a counterfeit.

What happened next was that the teacher then passed out a real 20 dollar note and we spent the next 3 hours going over in high detail everything in it that was different than a fake. By the end of the class, when the teacher again passed out the counterfeit ones, none of us made a mistake because every detail on a counterfeit jumped out at us. You see, we all had to study the real one in pains taken detail, and then spotting a counterfeit would be a simple and easy thing to do.

Therefore, may I suggest that if you truly want to know the truth, then one must diligently study the words of Jesus that was given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST! After that you can read anything and the counterfeit will be easily spotted.

[Twilight]

I agree with you.

Truth is experiential... He is personal. Truth is not a set of doctrines. If you agree with this we are on the same page.

It is both would be my position.

The scripture validates the personal experience.

Experience and doctrine should match...

Until this happens:

Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

The great "mystery".

----------------

I always consider how Jesus used prophecy for instance on the road to Emmaus.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

The prophecies, rightly studied will lead us to Christ.

Then lead us to the experience of the "indwelling Christ".

They lead us to Him.

But we so often use them to lead others to "us"...

[pnattmbtc]

Now we do not agree on every fine point, but there is liberty there on those points, which we do agree on.

But what astounds me, is that we agree on so many things.

And neither of us sound like "typical doctrinal adventists".

How did that happen?

I do not know Karl, I do not know who he has read, but I recognise in his posts the same teachings in many instances that I have learned.

How did that happen?

Probably similar paradigms.

Do you agree with Karl in regards to the atonement?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Now we do not agree on every fine point, but there is liberty there on those points, which we do agree on.

But what astounds me, is that we agree on so many things.

And neither of us sound like "typical doctrinal adventists".

How did that happen?

I do not know Karl, I do not know who he has read, but I recognise in his posts the same teachings in many instances that I have learned.

How did that happen?

Probably similar paradigms.

Do you agree with Karl in regards to the atonement?

Does Karl even agree with Karl in regards to the atonement? (Remember, some time has passed and since I'm over the hill and gaining speed down the other side, I may not even remember what Karl thinks.)

Who knows what Karl has read. Some say he hasn't read Jack.

[Woody]

They are absolute.

But I don't absolutely know what they are.

You're not alone SivartM. You are not alone.

We are all in the same boat. And don't let anyone fool you.

[Gerr]

With regards to the Bible, I'd like to know what you mean by "absolute". The Bible was given in the language of man, and such language is very imprecise. Too many words are used to describe too many different objects or concepts. And, yes, our cultural, experiencial, educational, probably even gender glasses will color our understanding of Scripture.

[pnattmbtc]

With regards to the Bible, I'd like to know what you mean by "absolute". The Bible was given in the language of man, and such language is very imprecise. Too many words are used to describe too many different objects or concepts. And, yes, our cultural, experiencial, educational, probably even gender glasses will color our understanding of Scripture.

Well said.

[Tom Wetmore]

A few questions come to mind.

Do you understand God?

Why are some people uncomfortable with uncertainty?

Why do we think we have to know things with absolute certainty?

If you discovered tomorrow that everything you know today is absolutely wrong, what would you do?

But if you were told in advance that tomorrow you would discover everything you knew yesterday was absolutely wrong, what would you do about it today?

And as for what I assume you meant as an example of an absolute, the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, how absolute is that idea for those living in the far northern latitudes where during winter the sun never even rises for many days and in summer when it doesn't set for many days?

[oldsailor29]

A few questions come to mind.

Do you understand God?

Why are some people uncomfortable with uncertainty?

Why do we think we have to know things with absolute certainty?

If you discovered tomorrow that everything you know today is absolutely wrong, what would you do?

I think this is illustrated in chapter xxx of "Life Sketches." As long as the travelers on that narrow way are certain of their their cherished doctrines, and refuse to let them go, they cannot progress up the narrower way.

[Guest]

Quote:

And as for what I assume you meant as an example of an absolute, the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, how absolute is that idea for those living in the far northern latitudes where during winter the sun never even rises for many days and in summer when it doesn't set for many days?

That would tend to make for an extra long Sabbath wouldn't it?

[Woody]

Quote:

Why are some people uncomfortable with uncertainty?

I think that to some it is to frightening not to value their opinion highly.They have to be 'right' in their own eyes. But Christ wants us to have the faith of a little child. It's not about knowledge. It's about faith.

[Woody]

With regards to the Bible, I'd like to know what you mean by "absolute". The Bible was given in the language of man, and such language is very imprecise. Too many words are used to describe too many different objects or concepts. And, yes, our cultural, experiencial, educational, probably even gender glasses will color our understanding of Scripture.

Gerry. This is perhaps the best quote IMHO ... that I've read of yours. Excellent.

[John317]

... may I suggest that if you truly want to know the truth, then one must diligently study the words of Jesus that was given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST! After that you can read anything and the counterfeit will be easily spotted.

Just like a person must first know the real dollar in order to spot the counterfeit, the person must also first know and understand the real "Truth" in order to spot the false. Knowing this "Truth" is a little bit more complex than being able to tell what a counterfeit dollor looks like.

Whether a person knows the Truth depends to a large extent on his willingness to obey Christ, and on whether he's blinded by the Devil or enlightened by the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Devil cares much if someone knows how to spot a counterfeit dollar, but he sure cares whether people's eyes are opened to the truth. He tries everything to keep us blinded and in the dark, and the Bible says he's really successful with a lot of people. The apostle John wrote his first letter to the church partly in order to show believers how to know for sure whether we know the Truth.

[Guest]

Thank you for posting that John. What you said is very true. Sometimes I am really blessed by some of the things you say on the forum. It's like a breath of fresh air, while every wind of false doctrine is blowing, here and in the church.

Don't get the bighead though. You're just being used by God. But if one has to be used, then being used by God is the only way to go.

[Musicman1228]

Truth is singular and absolute. There is only one truth and that is expressed through the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His disciples into ALL truth. How much of ALL is not singular and absolute? If this is true (and I believe that it is) then there must be a standard against which we measure everything related to salvation and righteousness. That standard MUST be Jesus Christ, because He is the only being that ever lived on earth that was fully human and fully divine, and spoke with the authority of God because He IS God.

No one else in the past or present no matter how spiritual and inspired can match that standard. To accept and believe the words of anyone as a substitute for the words of Jesus Christ and God is blaspheme. To say that one must trust the words of someone who 'speaks for God' belittles and nullifies the very words of the King of the Kingdom of Heaven. To say that the Holy Spirit revealed to mankind a truth through any human agency (alive or dead) that is different from that which Jesus Christ taught while here on earth is the unpardonable sin.

Truth always returns to the source of that truth, and that source is Jesus Christ and Him alone.

[Twilight]

Gerry,

You said our understanding of the bible is coloured by us.

Did you read the posts I made on that subject?

Or do you think the bible is "relative" in truth?

I am surprised to hear this from you, so ask you to clarify.

For instance:

Thou shalt not steal, is that relative?

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The reason I ask this, is that the enemy is busy teaching the whole world that there is no "absolute" truth, that it is all "relative".

In other words, his opinion is just as relavant as Gods.

This is being taught in schools and colleges.

It is also being promoted on this board in a very subtle manner.

The point I am making is that the bible itself is absolute in its inspiration.

It is men that are the problem.

The men that come to the bible.

The moment we move off of the rock of the bible being absolute truth, we are lost.

Relativism is everywhere...

Mark :-)

[karl]

The point I am making is that the bible itself is absolute in its inspiration.

It is men that are the problem.

The men that come to the bible.

The moment we move off of the rock of the bible being absolute truth, we are lost.

Relativism is everywhere...

Mark, I hope you didn't think I was promoting relativism when I pointed out that Jesus interacts with us personally and individually.

The rules don't change, but the interaction is unique to each of us.

For example, the rules of tennis are constant and absolute, but Federer plays each opponent somewhat differently. (Bad analagy, but you get the drift.)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The point I am making is that the bible itself is absolute in its inspiration.

It is men that are the problem.

The men that come to the bible.

The moment we move off of the rock of the bible being absolute truth, we are lost.

Relativism is everywhere...

Mark, I hope you didn't think I was promoting relativism when I pointed out that Jesus interacts with us personally and individually.

The rules don't change, but the interaction is unique to each of us.

For example, the rules of tennis are constant and absolute, but Federer plays each opponent somewhat differently. (Bad analagy, but you get the drift.)

Not at all Karl.

I am just trying to point how "relativism" can creep into our ideology.

As can any "worldly" view. :-)

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Ideology can be relative, truth cannot. Truth is absolute, just as is the author of truth. Jesus Christ said, "I AM the Way, I AM the truth, I AM the life." He told Moses that His name was "I AM", and that "I AM" was sending him. Truth has only one name and that is Jesus Christ.

[Woody]

Quote:

Thou shalt not steal, is that relative?

Yes. IT most certainly is relative. Good example you bring up Mark. What is stealing to one person is not stealing to another. Did God list all the kinds and examples of stealing? No He didn't. I might have many many more forms of stealing in mind than you do. Does that make ME RIGHT ? Is my interpretation the only one possible that comes from God?

I think not.

[Musicman1228]

Woody,

If truth is relative to the one viewing it then there is no ultimate truth and we move into philosophy. If there is no standard for truth then your truth is sufficient for you and my truth is sufficient for me and 'never the twain shall meet'.

What is the standard by which the Temple, the Alter, and worshipers are measured in Rev. 11:1 if not the standard that God Himself sets? If it is impossible to know that standard then when Jesus Christ said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into ALL truth He must have lied, and we know He never lies.

It is my understanding that the 10 Commandments are the standard of truth for the Kingdom of the Heavens, and if you do not abide by them you are not in the Kingdom of Heaven and are therefore not saved. This is confirmed in Revelation;

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

These are the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ that are born of the same Mother as He, and are listed as 'the rest of her offspring'. These are they that hold to the standard set by God for admittance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

What do you think?

[Dr. Rich]

Mark, don't you have your idea of what is absolute mixed up a bit? The bible is just a book. However, the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, now that is the absolute.

I just wrote a contract to buy a house and then added an addendum. I noticed that there were conflicts in the contract provided by the real estate agent and my addendum. Therefore, I wrote in that if there were found to be any conflicts in the contract and the addendum, that the words and conditions in the addendum would preside over the contract.

Well, the bible is much like this too. The words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses as found in John 14:26 should preside over anything else. I sincerely believe if everyone did this, then there could be unity among the true truth seekers. It is my opinion that this is exactly what the 144,000 people do to become sealed by God before the time of trouble that starts in the spring of 2016. We now have about 6 years to repent and follow after the words of Jesus.

[SivartM]

You know, for someone who says that we should only listen to the words of Jesus, you are quite insistent that we must listen to you.

[Guest]

You know, for someone who says that we should only listen to the words of Jesus, you are quite insistent that we must listen to you.

Well maybe you should Siv. Did you not know that him and two other guys are the only ones that God has given the real truth to? Not only do they know the real gospel, but also the real events that will take place at the end of time. They can even figure out dates, and tell us WHEN these things will happen.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

With regards to the Bible, I'd like to know what you mean by "absolute". The Bible was given in the language of man, and such language is very imprecise. Too many words are used to describe too many different objects or concepts. And, yes, our cultural, experiencial, educational, probably even gender glasses will color our understanding of Scripture.

Gerry. This is perhaps the best quote IMHO ... that I've read of yours. Excellent.

You just haven't been paying attention, my brother!