Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

The lesson for this week talks about the absolute goodness of God. Perhaps we should be talking about that rather than the relative musings of men.

I will grant you that God has made exceptions to His law, Gerry, with the warning that it is opening Pandora's Box for us humans to decide on other exceptions.

Opening Pandora's box? Not at all. It was absolutist thinking that led the Jews to codify God's laws into, what was it, 613 commands?

that covered every possible decision-challenging situation so that no one has to think! The command to obey the law IS ABSOLUTE, but I

believe that God is less interested in how perfect we are in applying the law as He is in the motive, the kind of love that prompted it.

Quote:

God rewarded Rahab for her deceit in hiding the Israelite spies...

Deceit? Or was it faith prompting her to love that protects?

If truth is not absolute Gerry, then God and Satan are both correct.

What do you think about that?

[Twilight]

The knowledge that we know of is certainly not absolute. For we only see it dimly.

That I agree with.

But that does not mean that truth is not absolute.

It just means that we do not comprehend fully the absolute truth...

[cardw]

Quote:

If truth is "relative" then truth does not exist.

What we perceive as truth is relative.

You can't bypass the human brain. Everything we are claiming to know is passing through a human brain. That colors everything whether you like it or not.

The absolute truth is unknowable, so in practical terms this is what is meant by relative truth.

Even in physics the observation of certain events changes those events because it's being observed. This even happens in the physical world.

The argument for absolute truth is the argument for reduction. It's based on a need to have control over the uncontrollable. It is basically an illusion.

[Twilight]

Quote:

If truth is "relative" then truth does not exist.

What we perceive as truth is relative.

You can't bypass the human brain. Everything we are claiming to know is passing through a human brain. That colors everything whether you like it or not.

The absolute truth is unknowable, so in practical terms this is what is meant by relative truth.

Even in physics the observation of certain events changes those events because it's being observed. This even happens in the physical world.

The argument for absolute truth is the argument for reduction. It's based on a need to have control over the uncontrollable. It is basically an illusion.

Would you mind if I test this with a logical test?

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Let us say that you believe with all your mind, that 2+2 = 4.

And I believe that 2+2 = 3.79.

That we are both convinced that our minds are correct, that the matter of our "brains" is correctly working out the maths.

Which one of us is right?

Is there an "absolute" law of mathematics, that over-rides our "perception" of the question at hand?

Or are we both "right"?

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There is an absolute law of course.

Without absolutism, there would be no law at all in the universe of any kind.

Gravity could be something that switches on and off based on our perception of it, if that were the case...

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Science would be impossible without "absolutes".

Laws of logic would be impossible without "absolutes".

Laws of morality would be impossible without "absolutes".

We all intrinsically state this in our actions.

Even if we think we disagree with it.

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And there is only one rational explanation for "absolute" laws.

An absolute Law Maker...

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Quote:

Let us say that you believe with all your mind, that 2+2 = 4.

And I believe that 2+2 = 3.79.

That we are both convinced that our minds are correct, that the matter of our "brains" is correctly working out the maths.

Which one of us is right?

Is there an "absolute" law of mathematics, that over-rides our "perception" of the question at hand?

Or are we both "right"?

This is what is scary to me about religion. This reduction of human interaction, life experiences, suffering, and ethics to mathematics is devoid of any real value.

Let's put some real value to those numbers.

Are 2 evil men equal to 2 good men?

Is the death of one child equal to the freedom of a nation?

How many people need to suffer and die on this planet before the point is made that suffering is bad?

What is the number of people dead from collateral damage where we decide it's too many?

You tell me where the absolutes are in these ethical quagmires.

You reduce these types of problems to mathematics?

Christians are so used to the god of the Bible dispatching a few thousand people here and a few thousand people there that they have lost the sense of value for human life. There is no outrage when god behaves badly in the bible because they have reduced justice and moral value to a zero sum game. I see no difference between this and mechanistic atheism.

Absolutism is evil because it reduces people to numbers. It values people based on how they measure up to a set of laws. This is as inhuman as one can possibly be.

[Gerr]

Quote:

It says "you shall not do ANY work." If this was absolute, God would not have given exceptions! Exceptions which you acknowledge."

The 8th says: "You shall not steal." If not taking something from someone without their permission is absolute, then God would not have given exceptions.

The 9th: "You shall not bear false witness." Was Rahab condemned for protecting the Israeli spies by telling an untruth?

The 10th says: "You shall not covet." Yet there are things we are supposed to covet. Again, there are exceptions.

You can't make something absolute and then proceed to have exceptions!

Let me repeat: The commandment to love is absolute, but how that love is applied can vary with the circumstances.

You're not allowing God the "here a little, there a little" principle. You're making Him stick absolutely with everything He says the minute He says it. It would be like my stopping you in mid-sentence after you had said "I have got to kill Tom" and not letting you finish "if he breaks into my house and attacks my family."

If we stick to your rule, we have God telling Adam and Eve a lie.

Hmmmmmmmm. Let's see whose view makes God to appear like a liar. You say that Truth is absolute. The Bible is absolute. The 10c are absolute. Am I right? And 'absolute' means, as Webster defines it, 'no exceptions'. But, as even you acknowledge, God did make later additions/exceptions. By definition, then, they are not as absolute as you make them out to be. So who is making Him look like a liar if He was making exceptions to things you said were absolute?

Quote:

The fact that God says something else after He says the first thing is additive, not contradictory.

These were not only additive - they were EXCEPTIONS!

Quote:

Indeed.

And to add to this.

When God says you shall do no work, He is talking about us doing "our work".

Not His work.

So the example you have used Gerry, does not really stand in my view.

Mark

Do I have to point out again that 'absolute' means no exceptions? I appreciate your zeal for the law, but your absolutist thinking about the law, I believe, is the same attitude that the Scribes and Pharisees had that got Jesus in trouble. No Sabbath work, so even healing was proscribed. Absolutely no travel beyond 2000 cubits. No burdens could be carried on Sabbath, not even a handkerchief. But it was ok to pin it on your clothes!

[Woody]

[Gerr]

Quote:

If truth is not absolute Gerry, then God and Satan are both correct.

What do you think about that?

There are truths that are absolute. There are also truths that are not so absolute.

There is a law of gravity. That is absolutely true. That because of gravity, everything that goes up must come down is not absolutely true!

[Gerr]

Here are a couple more truths that are not so absolute but which some people think are.

1. Circumcision - many Jews including some early Christians thought it was absolutely necessary for salvation. It was a truth given for a period of time.

2. Baptism - the NT considers it very important, and there are Christians today that make it an absolute requirement for salvation so as to require even a bedfast person to be baptized or else. Obviously, there will be many people in the kingdom who have never been baptized.

[Musicman1228]

Here are a couple more truths that are not so absolute but which some people think are.

1. Circumcision - many Jews including some early Christians thought it was absolutely necessary for salvation. It was a truth given for a period of time.

2. Baptism - the NT considers it very important, and there are Christians today that make it an absolute requirement for salvation so as to require even a bedfast person to be baptized or else. Obviously, there will be many people in the kingdom who have never been baptized.

Gerry, good points. Here are some more:

Tithing-We have been told that tithing is 'mandatory', that if you don't tithe you are outside of God's Law. This is nothing more than extortion on a grand scale. Tithing was to put food into the storehouse for the Priesthood of the Levites, so they could have a living as they served in the Temple. The Levites were given NO land, because their inheritance was in Heaven. There is no Temple, no storehouse, no priests, there for there is no need for tithing.

Celebration of the Feasts-Many Messianic Christians still believe that keeping the Feast days are still mandatory; Feasts such as Passover, Tabernacles, all the way to the Day of Atonement. This is just bunk, because while those Feasts at one time in history were mandatory for Israel they were fulfilled in the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled that part of the Law. Also, Israel is no longer the Kingdom of Heaven so those feasts are long gone with the demise of Israel as the nation of God.

Dietary restrictions-Israel was way ahead of it's time from a dietary standpoint; eating or not eating certain foods in certain combinations, the idea of not eating 'unclean' meats and the drinking of alcoholic beverages to excess. These are gone now for the same reasons that we don't need to practice the Feasts-those requirements were ONLY for Israel, and then as now have no meaning for the Kingdom of Heaven today. The only restrictions today as to what you should eat or drink is up to you and the leading of the Holy Spirit, because those 'laws' are now gone forever.

[Woody]

Hey ... the list could go on and on. The only absolute is that one accept Jesus as their saviour. But then even that isn't an absolute. For there will be some in Heaven who never even heard of the name Jesus. But Jesus knows their heart.

Bottom line. There are NO absolutes in the Bible.

[Gerr]

Personally, tithing is NOT optional for me. It is just my loving response to the God who emptied heaven's storehouse for me.

[Musicman1228]

Gerry,

I'm not saying that you shouldn't tithe, but that you should do it out of your heart not out of being made to feel guilty if you don't contribute to the church.

[Twilight]

Personally, tithing is NOT optional for me. It is just my loving response to the God who emptied heaven's storehouse for me.

Is that an absolute Gerry?

Or do you think that not all Christians should tithe?

[Gerr]

As I said, for me it's not optional, so, yes, it's an absolute command. What and how much the tithe is, is relative. Some say tithe should be paid on the gross. Some say the net increase - after ALL their expenses are met, in which case there would be very little left. I personally pay tithe on what is left after I pay my taxes, but before I spend anything for personal expenses.

[skyblue888]

Twilight said, "Do not get me wrong, we all are limited in our understanding of truth."

Why do you believe this is true? Is the Holy Spirit not capable of leading any self-honest person into ALL truth?

_______________________________________________________

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." 1 John 2:20,27.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things taht I said to you." John 14:26.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures." Review and Herald, April 3, 1888.

Of course this experience does not happen in a moment. It is the work of a life time. (Not forgetting that "God can teach you more in a moment by His Holy Spirit than you can learn from the great men of the earth." T.M.119) It is possible for someone who is taught by the Holy Spirit, at the School of Christ, to come to the place where he is established on every point, knowing all things God ever intended that he should know and understand. I believe this is going to be the experience of the true disciples of Christ in these last days before the return of Christ.

And as to quoting 1 Cor.13:12 "for now we see in a mirror, dimly," as proof that as long as we are on this side of Heaven the true child of God cannot be established on every point while searching the Scriptues and therefore cannot know the absolute truth about everything that pertains to faith and godliness, here is what the pen of inspiration has to say about that verse:

"The disciples still failed to understand Christ's words in their spiritual sense, and again He explained His meaning. By the Spirit, He said, He would manifest Himself to them. 'The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.' No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass, darkly. You shall 'be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge.'" Eph. 3:18, 19.

What does that say about knowing? Is it not saying that if the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, we may "know all things" yes, all things absolute for truth is absolute. "Thy word is truth." John 17:17.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus.

sky

"The people of God will be called upon to stand before kings, princes, rulers, and great men of the earth, and they must know that they do know what is truth. They must be converted men and women." T.M.119.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Twilight said, "Do not get me wrong, we all are limited in our understanding of truth."

Why do you believe this is true? Is the Holy Spirit not capable of leading any self-honest person into ALL truth?

_______________________________________________________

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things." 1 John 2:20,27.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things taht I said to you." John 14:26.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures." Review and Herald, April 3, 1888.

Of course this experience does not happen in a moment. It is the work of a life time. (Not forgetting that "God can teach you more in a moment by His Holy Spirit than you can learn from the great men of the earth." T.M.119) It is possible for someone who is taught by the Holy Spirit, at the School of Christ, to come to the place where he is established on every point, knowing all things God ever intended that he should know and understand. I believe this is going to be the experience of the true disciples of Christ in these last days before the return of Christ.

And as to quoting 1 Cor.13:12 "for now we see in a mirror, dimly," as proof that as long as we are on this side of Heaven the true child of God cannot be established on every point while searching the Scriptues and therefore cannot know the absolute truth about everything that pertains to faith and godliness, here is what the pen of inspiration has to say about that verse:

"The disciples still failed to understand Christ's words in their spiritual sense, and again He explained His meaning. By the Spirit, He said, He would manifest Himself to them. 'The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.' No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass, darkly. You shall 'be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge.'" Eph. 3:18, 19.

What does that say about knowing? Is it not saying that if the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, we may "know all things" yes, all things absolute for truth is absolute. "Thy word is truth." John 17:17.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus.

sky

"The people of God will be called upon to stand before kings, princes, rulers, and great men of the earth, and they must know that they do know what is truth. They must be converted men and women." T.M.119.

Some good thoughts, thank you Sky. :-)

[oldsailor29]

I think there are some things about which we can know all, but there are also some things we will study forever.

[skyblue888]

Some good thoughts, thank you Sky. :-)

[skyblue888]

I think there are some things about which we can know all, but there are also some things we will study forever.

Oldsailor, we are talking about what we can learn here with the Holy Spirit as our Teacher, not in the hereafer. I always keep in mind what Jesus said, that when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts to impress the truth into your souls, "No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass, darkly."

Even in this sin-darkened world there is no limit to what the Holy Spirit can reveal to us. "Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is: 'More of Thee,' and ever the Spirit's answer is, 'Much more.'" Mount of Blessing, p.20.

It is a given that in the hereafter there will always be new things to learn. :}

sky

[oldsailor29]

Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know. But I have never met anyone who thinks they know it all. Well, never any credible person.

[skyblue888]

Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know. But I have never met anyone who thinks they know it all. Well, never any credible person.

I have and I am sure most people have, at some point, met such individuals. Are you sure you haven't oldsailor? But if we happen to meet such ones, claiming to know it all, we may know that they are a fake, for though the children of God may "know all things" through the anointing, in Christ they are kept meek and lowly and their natural confession is the confession of faith, "We know nothing yet as we ought to know it" as it is written, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2.

This is the Spirit of the Gospel. This will always be the attitude of the true children of God eventhough they may know the "all things" of the Scriptures.

"He--the Holy Spirit--will teach you all things." John 14:26.

You said, "Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know."

There is no limit. We cannot put a limit on what the Holy Spirit can teach us, even in this world. As a man Jesus was finite. He learned everything by faith living in a finite world, just like us. As a man He thirsted for knowledge and God the Father did not disappoint him.

"His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

Even in this world, the Knowledge we acquire is given according to our capacity to receive.

Did you not appreciate this amazing quote?

"Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is, 'More of Thee,' and ever the Spirit's answer is, "Much more." M.B.20.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know. But I have never met anyone who thinks they know it all. Well, never any credible person.

I have and I am sure most people have, at some point, met such individuals. Are you sure you haven't oldsailor? But if we happen to meet such ones, claiming to know it all, we may know that they are a fake, for though the children of God may "know all things" through the anointing, in Christ they are kept meek and lowly and their natural confession is the confession of faith, "We know nothing yet as we ought to know it" as it is written, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2.

This is the Spirit of the Gospel. This will always be the attitude of the true children of God eventhough they may know the "all things" of the Scriptures.

"He--the Holy Spirit--will teach you all things." John 14:26.

You said, "Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know."

There is no limit. We cannot put a limit on what the Holy Spirit can teach us, even in this world. As a man Jesus was finite. He learned everything by faith living in a finite world, just like us. As a man He thirsted for knowledge and God the Father did not disappoint him.

"His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

Even in this world, the Knowledge we acquire is given according to our capacity to receive.

Did you not appreciate this amazing quote?

"Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is, 'More of Thee,' and ever the Spirit's answer is, "Much more." M.B.20.

sky

I appreciated those quotes Sky. :-)

Mark

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

though the children of God may "know all things" through the anointing, in Christ they are kept meek and lowly and their natural confession is the confession of faith, "We know nothing yet as we ought to know it" as it is written, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2.

This is the Spirit of the Gospel. This will always be the attitude of the true children of God even though they may know the "all things" of the Scriptures.

"He--the Holy Spirit--will teach you all things." John 14:26.

You said, "Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know."

There is no limit. We cannot put a limit on what the Holy Spirit can teach us, even in this world. As a man Jesus was finite. He learned everything by faith living in a finite world, just like us. As a man He thirsted for knowledge and God the Father did not disappoint him.

"His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

Even in this world, the Knowledge we acquire is given according to our capacity to receive.

Did you not appreciate this amazing quote?

"Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is, 'More of Thee,' and ever the Spirit's answer is, "Much more." M.B.20.

sky

I appreciated those quotes Sky. :-)

Mark

I agree, those are good quotes, but they seem to argue with themselves. You quoted that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things, then you said there is no limit, and backed it up with other quotes. "All things" indicates there is a limited number of things to know. But, do we continue to learn. And, if we expect to learn something tomorrow, do we already know it today? Of course not. I think there is a finite number of things we can know, but we can know very little of that which is infinite. The infinite is spoken of a few times in the Bible, so we can learn something of it. For example, a great multitude which cannot be numbered, is an infinite number of people. This says that people will be coming out of the great tribulation forever. I'll bet a lot of people who thought they knew it all didn't know that. And of course there will be some argument, at least in some peoples minds, about it, but it is something new which was never known before. At least, I have never heard anyone say it before. And I expect there will be something else which is new to learn every day forever. And if you learn something new today, I would like to hear about it. But if you do not learn something today which was previously unknown, does that mean that you already know everything, or perhaps merely reached capacity?

This is an interesting discussion which should include ways of knowing, and easily becomes historically philosophical.

[Gerr]

Knowledge is infinite, so the "all things" may just be all things necessary for us to get out of this planet alive. If you can learn "all things" in this short life-span, then knowledge is extremely limited, and eternity would be so boring we'd be tempted to invent mischief all over again!