Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You're wrong, that was never the truth. It it were He would have come. They had the date right but the event wrong.

That's why none of this stuff is credible. As soon as something is shown to be wrong, no matter how sure the leadership was that the holy spirit was leading, future believers simply claim that it wasn't what god was saying all along.

With this system if people get it right then it must be god. If people get it wrong then it's people's fault.

There is no honest accountability here. It's a smoke and mirrors god. As the Wizard of Oz states "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

This event was prophecised:

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

So God permitted this to happen.

Mark

[cardw]

This event was prophecised:

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

So God permitted this to happen.

Mark

This gets better and better.

Both you and Richard claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit and Richard claims that god had nothing to do with pre-SDA mistakes on the date and you say that god not only permitted this, but actually predicted it would happen and apparently this was part of god's plan.

That's why this is so hokey.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This event was prophecised:

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

So God permitted this to happen.

Mark

This gets better and better.

Both you and Richard claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit and Richard claims that god had nothing to do with pre-SDA mistakes on the date and you say that god not only permitted this, but actually predicted it would happen and apparently this was part of god's plan.

That's why this is so hokey.

All I can do is present the point.

If you choose to reject it, that is up to you, it is your choice.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

This event was prophecised:

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

So God permitted this to happen.

Mark

Well, I think we need to remember that the Millerites were plain wrong and chose to ignore the text that clearly states that no man will know the hour of the second coming.

Now when we read the apologetics right after the great disappointment we read that this was god's plan to separate the true believers from those who were opportunists. This was seen as the former rain and the parable of the 10 virgins was used to imply that only the Millerites who continued to have faith that Jesus was coming soon had enough oil.

Initially they were still setting dates with Ellen White's prophetic guidance until 1851 when many of them began to have more children. Because only those who received the former rain could receive that latter rain, they were only preaching to former Millerites who they saw as the only people who received the former rain. Well there was no way that these new children would have received the former rain so the theology began to get a lot more complex and we have the disaster of the Shut Door.

This is another example of shifting theology based on actual events the contradicted their former beliefs. Prophetic guidance failed with both the 1844 great disappointment and the early formation of the SDA church.

These are simply man made processes which indicates the we do need to pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

[skyblue888]

Prophetic guidance did not fail for it never fails. I don't know what you, brother Rich, mean by "prophetic guidance" but to me "prophetic guidance" is the guidance of the Father and Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit cannot fail. Everything that took place at the time of the great disappointment had God foretold and the rise of the Advent Movement was according to the prophetic word. It rose exactly at the time prophesied in Daniel 8:14.

"Of all the great religious movements since the days of the apostles, none have been more free from human imperfection and the wiles of Satan than was that of the autumn of 1844." The Great Controversy, p.401.

sky

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes truth advances. But truth is also absolute. If it was true in 1844, then it's still true today.

Example:...Will the seventh day still be the Sabbath, or has it changed?...

You see, foundational truth never changes.

It is interesting that you bring up the seventh day Sabbath in relation to 1844. It is my understanding that William Miller's group were not known as Seventh-day Adventists, only as Adventists, since they believed that Sunday was either; 1) the Sabbath or 2) the Lord's day. In either case, the truth was that they worshipped on Sunday initially. However, they were wise enough that when "new" light was presented, they recognized and accepted it - even though it directly contradicted what they had already accepted as truth.

I will grant you that the truth was and is that the Sabbath falls on the seventh day. However, are we really talking about what truth is, or are we talking about what the church (people) believe to be the truth? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Agape`

I was just making the point that actual truth doesn't change. It's true they didn't understand the Sabbath in 1844. I just threw that date out there randomly. But it was true that the seventh day was the Sabbath in 1844, even though they didn't know it. And it is still true today. That's all I was saying.

[cardw]

Prophetic guidance did not fail for it never fails. I don't know what you, brother Rich, mean by "prophetic guidance" but to me "prophetic guidance" is the guidance of the Father and Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit cannot fail. Everything that took place at the time of the great disappointment had God foretold and the rise of the Advent Movement was according to the prophetic word. It rose exactly at the time prophesied in Daniel 8:14.

"Of all the great religious movements since the days of the apostles, none have been more free from human imperfection and the wiles of Satan than was that of the autumn of 1844." The Great Controversy, p.401.

sky

Just because you claim that it never fails doesn't mean it's true. A Mormon will swear that the holy spirit guided Joseph Smith. Even within this thread many of you simply can't agree what the Spirit is saying. This looks man made to me.

Your last quote verifies this. This quote is clearly an exaggeration. There is no way that anyone could know this. I have read a lot of personal descriptions of those times from many different sources and I see absolutely no evidence of this claim. There was pride involved at every step of this movement. The pride of being "right."

Their arrogance was so great that they couldn't even admit that they were wrong and made up a fantastic story about how god wanted it to be that way and that all the nominal churches were synagogs of Satan when these same people were the one's that returned their possessions and farmed their fields when they were caught up in this delusion of god's special favor.

Sure, there were people who ridiculed them as well, but they exaggerated the "evil" attacking them. And they certainly exaggerated the "purity" of their movement.

[cardw]

Quote:

All I can do is present the point.

If you choose to reject it, that is up to you, it is your choice.

I think we need to clear something up here.

This is not me choosing to reject something because I don't like it. I don't have to reject something that hasn't even been established because there is nothing to reject.

The fact is you haven't even established a point. All you have is a claim and quotes from other sources that are simply claiming.

There is no reasoning. You don't address the conflicts. All you have is triumphal announcements.

That's why it's not believable.

[Musicman1228]

cardw,

For the most part I agree with your assessment of the conditions of the SDA church then (1844) and now; that nothing changes from then till now: when you make the claim to being Holy Spirit lead and then the event that you have been led to believe would come true doesn't you then must make excuses for that event not occurring. It just can't be God's fault so it must be our understanding. On the other hand a agree with Oldsailor (I think it was him) that said that they got the date correct not the event. The 2300 evening and morning prophecy that was the basis for Wm Miller's movement did actually end in 1843, but again just as you have said cardw they couldn't believe they got the prophecy end date wrong so they changed the date to fit (Oct.22, 1844). Then that date turned out to not be correct either.

The one thing that I disagree with you on is your understanding of the statement of Jesus Christ in Matt. 24:36 about 'no one knows the day or the hour'. We have taken that to mean that we will never be able to know the day and the hour, but that is an incorrect reading of the text. Let me briefly explain:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." John 24:36.

The Greek word for KNOWS in this verse actually means 'to make known', or to 'reveal'. So the correct translation should read, "But concerning that day and hour no one 'makes known, or reveals', . . .

This changes the entire meaning of the text. It indicates that the Son will not reveal the day and hour of His coming but His Father will. This also means that at the time Jesus made this statement to His Disciples He did not know when He was to return to earth. But can you imagine that the Father would not give His Son this information when He ascended to heaven? Here is the proof text:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. Rev.1:1.

So there it is. God revealed to His son the information about when He was going to be able to come back to earth to get His Bride. In verses 2 and 3 we see that Jesus gave this information to His angel (messenger) who would give it to John, who would write it down and give it to the Bondservants of Jesus Christ so they would KNOW when He was to come.

The reason the Bondservants need to know is so they can prepare the bridesmaids for service, so they can prepare the Bride (world) for the coming of the Bridegroom. You can find this prophecy detailed in Matt.24:45-51 and Matt.25: 1-13. (This is a single story.)

Not only will we know but we must know, and we will be held accountable if we don't.

[The five foolish bridesmaids refused to believe that they must know the day and the hour and the door to the rehearsal dinner (marriage feast) was closed in their face, and they were not let in.]

[cardw]

Quote:

Not only will we know but we must know, and we will be held accountable if we don't.

[The five foolish bridesmaids refused to believe that they must know the day and the hour and the door to the rehearsal dinner (marriage feast) was closed in their face, and they were not let in.]

Your whole post is a rather creative "solution" except that it is so cumbersome. We have to wade through pages and pages of commentary and parables and Ellen White's comments and we still don't have a date. Simple solution: Publish the date and accurate descriptions of the signs that aren't general comments about every age in history. Something like the city of New Orleans will be flooded by a large hurricane called Katrina in the year 2005 in the month of August. Save yourselves and leave the city.

Why does god have to play all this cat and mouse?

Why does god need to write all this stuff in code and mystic prophecies?

And why should I be held responsible to know something that doesn't seem all that clear to me or anyone else for that matter? I will simply point out the myriad of opinions about what all this means and the complete lack of consensus.

The simplest answer is that all of this stuff is simply made up to satisfy our need to know stuff that is unknowable. So we make up these myths and attribute them to some invisible all powerful god to give them credibility because they don't have any shred of evidence. And since we are afraid of the unknown, we need to tell ourselves stories to help ease our fears.

[Musicman1228]

If the timing of prophecy was unknown and unknowable then Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Greatest Prophet was a liar when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into ALL truth. We know that this is not true, so there must be another explanation. This ALL would of needs include the way to decipher the days/weeks/months/years that are included in the prophecies of the time of the end. Why would God include in prophecy various numbers such as 490, 1335, 1290, 1260, 31/2 days, 5 months etc if it were impossible to know what these mean and how they relate to one another. Try this web site to find a chart and explanation that could clear this up for you. Time Chart

[cardw]

If the timing of prophecy was unknown and unknowable then Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Greatest Prophet was a liar when He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into ALL truth. We know that this is not true, so there must be another explanation.

[Twilight]

I have a question Cardw.

I hope you do not mind me asking this.

If you are so convinced that God is a figment of "imagination", (I believe this is your position), then why do you spend so much time on Christian boards?

Why do you spend so much time trying to "establish" this to others?

Are you trying to "evangelise" others to atheism (if indeed you are an athiest)?

Is there something about your belief systems that you find so valuable that you wish to share with us?

Mark :-)

[cardw]

I have a question Cardw.

I hope you do not mind me asking this.

[skyblue888]

The Jews were violent and the Catholics were violent and for that reason we have had all these "holy" wars in the name of God and of Christ, in the name of religion. But the Jews misrepresented God. They were called to be the true representatives of God but instead they became the representatives of Satan just as the Catholic church in the Dark Ages. So we cannot judge Christianity by what the Jews or the Catholics did or even by the so-called Protestants of today because they too have misunderstood the true God.

Jesus is the One who revealed God and to Him we must look to understand what Christianity is all about.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

cardw wrote: "With this kind of reasoning we could say that we will eventually know how to time travel, read people's minds, and levitate because we will be lead into ALL truth."

Clearly the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth to many things that we don't need to know at this time. The context where Jesus told us about all of this is in the need to know what is needed for our salvation. Since the thread is about Relativism and Absolutism in a Bible Study, 'time travel' is not included in this 'need to know' conclusion.

Bottom line: The "all truth" that the Holy Spirit will reveal is about spiritual truths needed for salvation.

[cardw]

cardw wrote: "With this kind of reasoning we could say that we will eventually know how to time travel, read people's minds, and levitate because we will be lead into ALL truth."

Clearly the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth to many things that we don't need to know at this time. The context where Jesus told us about all of this is in the need to know what is needed for our salvation. Since the thread is about Relativism and Absolutism in a Bible Study, 'time travel' is not included in this 'need to know' conclusion.

Bottom line: The "all truth" that the Holy Spirit will reveal is about spiritual truths needed for salvation.

You are taking me out of context. My point was in reference to this same type of reasoning for knowing the time of Jesus coming. I'm not sure how the exact time of the 2nd coming would be necessary for salvation, unless you are trying to scare people into becoming Christians much like the movement around the great disappointment and Christianity in general.

[cardw]

The Jews were violent and the Catholics were violent and for that reason we have had all these "holy" wars in the name of God and of Christ, in the name of religion. But the Jews misrepresented God. They were called to be the true representatives of God but instead they became the representatives of Satan just as the Catholic church in the Dark Ages. So we cannot judge Christianity by what the Jews or the Catholics did or even by the so-called Protestants of today because they too have misunderstood the true God.

sky

Well, I don't think they misrepresented the god of the bible because the bible says that god ordered much of the killing and in the case of the flood carried out the killing.

If you are going to say that god is good then you have to say that god didn't really order these things. That's the problem with sacred books. They cause us to ignore natural human empathy and carry out things that we would never think were "right." It is very easy to interpret the Bible as endorsing violence against the so called enemies of god. St. Augustine, a very devout Christian, established the Biblical basis for a just war. And this was extended to any one the church identified as heretics, witches, and other "dangers" to the church.

This is the fruit of the Bible.

[skyblue888]

To the surface reader the deep things of God are not so easily discerned. We need to sink the shaft deeper into the mine of truth if we are ever to come to an understanding of it.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Cardw,

I love to have conversations with agnostics, because you are often closer to the truth than people that are indeed tied to religious myths. Having previously established paradigms that get in the way of honest assessment often lead those of a particular religion to erroneous conclusions.

That being said (and not meaning to get into a discussion over the existence of God) I find it interesting that most (not all) agnostics (who claim neither faith nor belief in God) demonstrate 'faith' in the belief that God cannot be proven one way or the other. These same people will accept the existence of extra-terrestrial beings flying into earths atmosphere in various types of space craft based on equally flimsy non-confirmed sightings, or by way of crop circles or 'maps' that can be seen only from high altitude carved into rock in the Andes Mountains.

God needs no one to prove His (Their) existence. He is not concerned with either belief or unbelief, He merely IS. In fact He made the statement to Moses that His name is "I AM". So one can either look dispassionately at evidence both for and against the proposition and come to a logical conclusion about the existence of a Divine Being or not; it doesn't matter a whit to God. What matters in the end is only SELF HONESTY, and a willingness to look at ALL evidence both for and against a proposition before making a final decision as to the yea or nay. God is not a God of religion, He is a God of Truth. Surprising to many, it has been my experience that when one looks for truth honestly and without prejudice they more often than not find their way to God. (I hope this does not scare you away from the process.)

From reading your posts I get the impression that you are this type of agnostic. I look forward to our exchange of ideas.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have a question Cardw.

I hope you do not mind me asking this.

Nothing wrong with a good question.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If you are so convinced that God is a figment of "imagination", (I believe this is your position), then why do you spend so much time on Christian boards?

Let me clarify: I think the god of the bible is a figment of "imagination." As far as god in general I'm agnostic, that is I don't believe that it is possible to know.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Why do you spend so much time trying to "establish" this to others?

I do find many of the ideas that Jesus presents to be true independent of their religious affiliation and one of these is the idea that the truth sets us free. I think religion in general is based on myths and these inherently limit us.

I believe that religion, particularly the Abrahamic sourced ones, are harmful to humanity in general. While they may reflect some ethical insights, as a whole they tend to use violence as a solution far too often. They also create shame on a large scale over trivia.

I think we would be far better off without so much confidence in sacred books that describe a god who kills people who disagree or for so called infractions of unreasonable laws such as gathering sticks on the Sabbath or mixing two different fibers together or ignoring a particular day of rest or other such nonsense.

I believe the core method of all of the Abrahamic religions is fear and violence. Both Islam and Christianity claim to be religions of peace, yet their history is largely one of violence. And if we are to believe Jesus when he says by their fruits you will know them, I think it is rather obvious what the major fruit of all of these religions has been.

Both Christianity and Islam have used violence, not attraction or teaching, as their most effective method to expand their influence and the number of followers. And the history of the Jewish religion in the Bible is one violent overthrow after another.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Are you trying to "evangelise" others to atheism (if indeed you are an athiest)?

My goal is to look to reason influenced by empathy since I believe those are the best tools we have. When I observe the world around me, the people who master those tools seem to be the most effective at making this world a better place.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Is there something about your belief systems that you find so valuable that you wish to share with us?

I don't have a static belief system. I have a set of tools that I continually improve. And the only value my belief system has is if it works in the real world. It may not work for every person since each person is unique and is responsible for understanding the world in a way that makes sense to them.

Thank you for opening up and sharing that Cardw.

It has helped me understand you a bit better.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

I find it interesting that most (not all) agnostics (who claim neither faith nor belief in God) demonstrate 'faith' in the belief that God cannot be proven one way or the other. These same people will accept the existence of extra-terrestrial beings flying into earths atmosphere in various types of space craft based on equally flimsy non-confirmed sightings, or by way of crop circles or 'maps' that can be seen only from high altitude carved into rock in the Andes Mountains.

[cardw]

To the surface reader the deep things of God are not so easily discerned. We need to sink the shaft deeper into the mine of truth if we are ever to come to an understanding of it.

Well, vague references to the "deep" things of god really says nothing because no one really can tell what these deep things are. (insert mysterious wandering note music here.)

Understanding implies a rational system of examination not some vague mine shaft of truth.

What these types of statements really mean is I don't know, but this sure sounds good.

[Dr. Rich]

Cardw, to answer you question about knowing the time of Jesus' coming, one must first understand why this is important. Jesus likens His people to His bride as to let us know what a groom wants from his bride. If you are married, did you and your wife discuss the date and time of your wedding? Or, did you just tell her that you always want her to be in her wedding dress, bathed and smelling good and always ready for the wedding because some day, unknown to her, you will come and tell her the wedding that day. Come on now, lets get serious about this. If no man in his right mind would ever do such a thing, well, neither would Jesus do this for His bride!

Problem is, Jesus didn't know but said that His Father knew, so that when the Father told His Son, then the Son would pass on this information to His bride through His Groomsmen, the 144k. And this is exactly what we find in Revelation 1:1-3!

[Musicman1228]

cardw said, "It often ends up being a quote from Paul indicating that Faith is the evidence."

You will never find me using Paul as a source in this manner. He is not a credible witness and His theology completely disagrees with the teachings and words of Jesus Christ. Paul is, however, the acknowledged founder of Christianity, and as such is often used by people of 'faith' to prove their points of theology. You will find that even when you ask these people to use a much more credible source such as Jesus Christ Himself (or history, or science) they refuse, siting that Paul is the author of their faith and as such must be accepted by anyone that wants to prove a point to them. It's real catch-22.

I am not interested in developing 'faith', I am only interested in developing truth. In that we have a lot in common.