Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[Guest]

You better hope you develop some faith pretty soon, because Jesus said you need it to get to heaven. I know you think the word trust is somehow a higher more noble word than faith, (in spite of what the dictionary says) but it's not. That's all in your head. because they both mean the same thing.

The Bible speaks of the need for faith, from one end to the other. But you somehow manage to consistently over look it.

Rom 14:23....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

You have to have faith just to believe the Bible. You have to have faith to believe Jesus is coming back also. You can't prove something that hasn't happened yet.

[Guest]

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Now where it says his people, "the Saints" will have the faith of Jesus, does that mean Jesus gives them their faith, or does it mean they will have the same kind of faith Jesus had?

Either way, if you plan on being in that number, you're going to need some faith according to Rev 14:12 Which by the way is one of the books you claim to actually believe in. oops, there's that word again. "believe" - "faith".

[cardw]

Cardw, to answer you question about knowing the time of Jesus' coming, one must first understand why this is important. Jesus likens His people to His bride as to let us know what a groom wants from his bride. If you are married, did you and your wife discuss the date and time of your wedding? Or, did you just tell her that you always want her to be in her wedding dress, bathed and smelling good and always ready for the wedding because some day, unknown to her, you will come and tell her the wedding that day. Come on now, lets get serious about this. If no man in his right mind would ever do such a thing, well, neither would Jesus do this for His bride!

To tell you the truth, I can't relate to this because being a bride, wearing a dress, feeling pretty, etc. isn't really all that attractive to me. LOL I guess maybe if I was transgender this might work for me. You have to admit that this is a little hard to take seriously.

And this is a metaphor, not a rationale.

[Robert]

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This refers not the SDA church, but the 144,000, a special group who has not only faith in Christ, but also "the faith of Jesus". They will experience full growth, but not by outwardly keeping rules as do many SDA; rather by experience liberation from all aspects of iniquity - our bent-to-self. The SDA church, as it is know today, is part of Laodicea. It is not the remnant Church, neither is any other denomination.

Rob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

To the surface reader the deep things of God are not so easily discerned. We need to sink the shaft deeper into the mine of truth if we are ever to come to an understanding of it.

Well, vague references to the "deep" things of god really says nothing because no one really can tell what these deep things are. (insert mysterious wandering note music here.)

Understanding implies a rational system of examination not some vague mine shaft of truth.

What these types of statements really mean is I don't know, but this sure sounds good.

Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of life.

It is the only belief system that meets the fundamental needs of man.

If you wish to discuss this, I will raise a new subject so we can talk about this Cardw?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This refers not the SDA church, but the 144,000, a special group who has not only faith in Christ, but also "the faith of Jesus". They will experience full growth, but not by outwardly keeping rules as do many SDA; rather by experience liberation from all aspects of iniquity - our bent-to-self. The SDA church, as it is know today, is part of Laodicea. It is not the remnant Church, neither is any other denomination.

Rob

I would say that these people are those that have come out of Babylon and heard the 3 angels message from the SDA church.

It also includes faithful SDA's.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

The best parallel we have is Jesus and His disciples. They constituted the "little church" or the "faithful few" within the "established church" hoary with age and whose leaders had become the representatives of Satan.

"The people whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become representatives of Satan. They were doing the work that he desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyrant. The very priests who ministered in the temple had lost sight of the significance of the service they performed... God could do no more for man through these channels. The whole system must be swept away." D.A.36.

sky

[cardw]

Quote:

Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of life.

Well, it may be the only belief system that makes sense to you. Otherwise this statement ignores the millions of people who have used a myriad of other belief systems to make sense out of their lives.

Quote:

It is the only belief system that meets the fundamental needs of man.

Well, we can't even define what the fundamental needs of man are with any confidence, let alone claim to have something that meets those needs.

These are just triumphal announcements that simply don't hold up with even a initial observation because they are clearly exaggerations.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of life.

Well, it may be the only belief system that makes sense to you. Otherwise this statement ignores the millions of people who have used a myriad of other belief systems to make sense out of their lives.

Quote:

It is the only belief system that meets the fundamental needs of man.

Well, we can't even define what the fundamental needs of man are with any confidence, let alone claim to have something that meets those needs.

These are just triumphal announcements that simply don't hold up with even a initial observation because they are clearly exaggerations.

I have added a new topic to discuss this here cardw:

http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/339281.html#Post339281

I am looking forward to discussing it with you.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Cardw, with all due respect, What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? You are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe. But one does not arrive to the knowledge of the truth by doubting. This was the way of the Greek philosophers. They taught that everything must first be doubted. But this was foolishness since no one could ever be sure that he had raised all the possible doubts before he could believe something.

All that the truth demands from us is that we believe it because it is the truth. "Your word is truth." John 17:17. "The entirety of Your word is truth." Psalm 119:160. "All Your commandments are truth." Psalm 119:151.

All that the truth expects from us is that we believe it simply because it is the truth and it will set us free. "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32.

Therefore, O Lord, "Give me understanding according to Your Word." Psalm 119:19.

The condition of man:

"The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but wounds and bruises and putrefying sores; they have not been closed or bound up, or soothed with ointment." Isaiah 1:5,6.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, and accordong to the fruit of his doings." Jeremiah 17:9,10.

Our own hearts will deceive us faster than our worst enemies.

This is the condition of the human heart. And because of it, "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isaiah 60:2.

Through faith in the merits of the blood shed for us upon Calvary's cross all those who hunger and thirst for a "new heart" in Christ Jesus may be born again, born from above, by the operation of the Holy Spirit.

Looking unto Jesus and trusting in the merits of His infinite sacrifice, we appropriate the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Cor.5:17.

Yet, sadly, the new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. Therefore "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith." 2 Cor.13:5.

sky

[cardw]

Quote:

Cardw, with all due respect, What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? You are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe.

Well, I don't feel like anyone is restricting my beliefs.

I think I recently outlined what my motives are a few posts back at:

Post on motives

Quote:

But one does not arrive to the knowledge of the truth by doubting. This was the way of the Greek philosophers. They taught that everything must first be doubted. But this was foolishness since no one could ever be sure that he had raised all the possible doubts before he could believe something.

That's not completely accurate. For me I have accepted my limitations. I have come to see that I can't possibly know everything. I can know what doesn't work. That at least allows me to explore other things and move on.

[cardw]

Quote:

Our own hearts will deceive us faster than our worst enemies.

I no longer believe this, because I have learned to listen to my intuition and it is really quite accurate.

The only problem that I find is when my ego is operating, then I get blind sided because I'm listening to my fears.

This is one of the main reasons I find Christianity to not be all that effective because it uses fear so often as it's motivation core. And fear is what feeds the ego. When I become afraid of what other people might think, or what other people might say, or if I don't look or sound smart enough, or if I'm not being good enough, or my Christian witness isn't effective enough, or I'm not perfecting my character enough, etc. etc. my intuition becomes blind.

All these fears become masters. But these aren't a function of my heart. My heart simply reacts to these beliefs rather than being aware of the world around me.

[doug yowell]

Hmmmm. Nothing less egocentric than an infallable intuition. Let me work on that one for minute.

[Guest]

[Dr. Rich]

Rev. 14:12 is talking about the patients or perseverance of those who abide in the words of Jesus, thereby keeping the commandments as faithfully as Jesus kept them. It has nothing to do with just having faith in the name of Jesus. One must compare this with Rev. 12:17 in that these are the ones who keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus--meaning the words that Jesus testified to and given to Him by His Father as found in John 14, 15, 16, and 17.

[Guest]

Then maybe you can explain why, after it says that they keep the commandments, it goes on to say "AND the faith of Jesus".

Are you saying that it doesn't mean to have faith in the name, but to have faith in the person? Or are you saying we need the same KIND of faith that Jesus had?

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes Richard, I can agree with this. Are not we to have the same faith as what Jesus had?

[Guest]

Yes Richard, I can agree with this. Are not we to have the same faith as what Jesus had?

Yes, but you have told me many times that Jesus didn't have faith, and that we don't need faith. Are you changing your beliefs?

[Musicman1228]

Jesus either knew who He was, or He didn't. If He did not know, or was not sure, then He would have needed faith to accomplish the task of testifying to the truth. If He did know, and it is evident that He did beginning at age 12 when He went to Jerusalem, then that knowledge would have eliminated any need for faith on His part. He displayed complete confidence in His origins, in who His Father was, and in what it was that He was to testify to. Since He absolutely knew who He was and what He was required by His Father to do then it is evident that He did not need 'faith', as it is defined today. Trust yes, faith no.

[cardw]

Hmmmm. Nothing less egocentric than an infallable intuition. Let me work on that one for minute.

That's the problem with black and white thinking. You can't conceive of anything other than exaggeration.

You have no idea how my intuition has served me. It has kept me from danger. It has helped me find my way through difficult times. I also didn't say that it was infallible.

Now I don't know what informs my intuition because I am an agnostic.

You believe that you are informed by the holy spirit, but I would simply point out your lack of insight and just plain ignorance as further evidence of the failure of your belief system.

Both you and Richard provide some of the best evidence that Christianity doesn't work.

[Guest]

Jesus either knew who He was, or He didn't. If He did not know, or was not sure, then He would have needed faith to accomplish the task of testifying to the truth. If He did know, and it is evident that He did beginning at age 12 when He went to Jerusalem, then that knowledge would have eliminated any need for faith on His part. He displayed complete confidence in His origins, in who His Father was, and in what it was that He was to testify to. Since He absolutely knew who He was and what He was required by His Father to do then it is evident that He did not need 'faith', as it is defined today. Trust yes, faith no.

Again MM, I know you think trust is somehow a more noble and meaningful word than faith, (in spite of what the dictionary says) but it's not.

So what is the faith of Jesus MM? Did john the revelator mess up and use the wrong word here?

The word he used here is Strong's #G4102 Pistis

pis'-tis

persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Hmmmm. Nothing less egocentric than an infallable intuition. Let me work on that one for minute.

That's the problem with black and white thinking. You can't conceive of anything other than exaggeration.

You have no idea how my intuition has served me. It has kept me from danger. It has helped me find my way through difficult times. I also didn't say that it was infallible.

Now I don't know what informs my intuition because I am an agnostic.

You believe that you are informed by the holy spirit, but I would simply point out your lack of insight and just plain ignorance as further evidence of the failure of your belief system.

Both you and Richard provide some of the best evidence that Christianity doesn't work.

Not so cardw, I trust God's Word (the entire Bible) because I believe that It, rather than my intuition, is infallable. You trust in your intuition even though you admit that it is not infallable. Which one of our belief systems is already an admitted failure? And any ignorance or lack of insight on my part proves nothing about my belief system.It merely proves that I am ignorant and lacking insight.

[cardw]

Hmmmm. Nothing less egocentric than an infallable intuition. Let me work on that one for minute.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Hmmmm. Nothing less egocentric than an infallable intuition. Let me work on that one for minute.

That's the problem with black and white thinking. You can't conceive of anything other than exaggeration.

You have no idea how my intuition has served me. It has kept me from danger. It has helped me find my way through difficult times. I also didn't say that it was infallible.

Now I don't know what informs my intuition because I am an agnostic.

You believe that you are informed by the holy spirit, but I would simply point out your lack of insight and just plain ignorance as further evidence of the failure of your belief system.

Both you and Richard provide some of the best evidence that Christianity doesn't work.

Actually, when looked at empirically Christianity as a belief system does work. By observing the Christian life style, interior motivators, exterior activities, charitable contributions, concern for the human condition, etc. Christians are and do marvelous good in the world. Christian volunteerism, monetary contribution to worthy causes, direct individual action based on the needs of their communities Christians present an admirable image.

Some churches (notably SDA) have developed sophisticated health care systems, relief agencies (ADRA), community outreach programs, healthy living education (CHIPS), and a lot more.

All of this is based on a belief system that seeks to emulate the person for who this religion was named, i.e. Jesus Christ. So to say that this believe system does not work is erroneous. However, I do know from where you are coming when you spoke of the Christian belief system as 'not working', and this is because you see this belief system based on the nebulous idea of 'faith'. Just because a belief system is based upon an erroneous premis such as 'faith' does not mean that it does not work. This system based on 'faith' works perfectly, meeting all of its design characteristics. This is why I can (for myself) say that there must be a higher intelligence that manufactured this system of 'faith' based belief because humans are way to stupid and gullible to have invented it on their own. The being that invented the idea of 'faith' (righteousness by, salvation by, belief by) knew exactly how human beings would react to being able to belief something firmly and irrevocably WITHOUT CONCRETE EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP.

Faith allow a person to believe a lie as if it were the truth, without accountability.

Therefore, I propose that if there is a being that invented something called 'faith' with which to deceive humanity into believing something that just isn't there, there must also be a being that that invented the opposite, i.e. the ability to believe the naked unvarnished TRUTH. As a society of man-made worship modes (religions) we have termed these beings respectively Satan and God.

Please understand that from my perspective rejecting the idea of religion as a basis for 'faith' is not a bad thing, since religion is really a system of worship invented by man to appease a 'god' that they believe they can never really know. Just because a person does not believe in religion does not mean they can't be spiritual and believe in the truth of God.

[olger]

Not so cardw, I trust God's Word (the entire Bible) because I believe that It, rather than my intuition, is infallable. You trust in your intuition even though you admit that it is not infallable. Which one of our belief systems is already an admitted failure? And any ignorance or lack of insight on my part proves nothing about my belief system.It merely proves that I am ignorant and lacking insight.

Dittos.

It is not the Word of God that is on trial by the "spirits" but rather the spirits that are on trial by the Word of God.

g