Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[karl]

Quote:

If I am starving and it's ok for me to eat from someone's vineyard or grainfield, then stealing is not an absolute commandment. If the priest can perform work on the Sabbath, and if it is "lawful to do good on Sabbath" then the Sabbath work prohibition is not absolute. If one is not guilty of murder for killing a night intruder, then the "thou shalt not kill" command is not absolute either.

If God instructs His people to make food available in their fields for the needy, and the needy avail themselves of that food, that is not stealing.

If God instructs the priest (or minister) to work in the Sabbath worship of Him, the priest's work is not an infraction of the Sabbath commandment.

Killing in self-defense is not murder.

[Gerr]

Quote:

If I am starving and it's ok for me to eat from someone's vineyard or grainfield, then stealing is not an absolute commandment. If the priest can perform work on the Sabbath, and if it is "lawful to do good on Sabbath" then the Sabbath work prohibition is not absolute. If one is not guilty of murder for killing a night intruder, then the "thou shalt not kill" command is not absolute either.

If God instructs His people to make food available in their fields for the needy, and the needy avail themselves of that food, that is not stealing.

If God instructs the priest (or minister) to work in the Sabbath worship of Him, the priest's work is not an infraction of the Sabbath commandment.

Killing in self-defense is not murder.

My point is that if there are exceptions or mitigating circumstances, then the commandment is not as absolute as Mark was saying.

The ONE absolute commandment in which there are NO exceptions is that we are to LOVE, i.e. everything we do is do be done out of love! NO exceptions. That's as absolute as you can get!

[Gerr]

See my comment to Karl's post.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

If God instructs His people to make food available in their fields for the needy, and the needy avail themselves of that food, that is not stealing.

If God instructs the priest (or minister) to work in the Sabbath worship of Him, the priest's work is not an infraction of the Sabbath commandment.

Killing in self-defense is not murder.

My point is that if there are exceptions or mitigating circumstances, then the commandment is not as absolute as Mark was saying.

The ONE absolute commandment in which there are NO exceptions is that we are to LOVE, i.e. everything we do is do be done out of love! NO exceptions. That's as absolute as you can get!

I do not see how the examples you have provided Gerry prove your point?

What I have seen presented are three examples that did not break any absolutes.

We could discuss each one and see that they are not actually breaking any other law?

Once God has stated thou shalt not steal is an absolute, then unless you can show where God has said it is okay to steal, then that is an absolute.

It seems you are arguing that God did say it was okay to steal in some instances?

If that is the case, then Gods morality is not absolute.

Mark

[karl]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What I tried (unsuccesfully) to say is that

1) you can't steal what is being given you,

2) God Himself made the Sabbath work exception for the priests, so that is not a violation of His law, and

3) The commandment is about premeditated murder, not self-defense, or executions.

The understanding of the absolute nature of God's law also requires a full understanding of God's will.

Gerry's assertion that love must control our understanding of the Law is accurate in one sense, but prone to manipulation by anyone wishing to misinterpret God's will. [/quote']

I am in total agreement with this.

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Mark & Karl:

The 4th commandment says: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:8-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

It says "you shall not do ANY work." If this was absolute, God would not have given exceptions! Exceptions which you acknowledge."

The 8th says: "You shall not steal." If not taking something from someone without their permission is absolute, then God would not have given exceptions.

The 9th: "You shall not bear false witness." Was Rahab condemned for protecting the Israeli spies by telling an untruth?

The 10th says: "You shall not covet." Yet there are things we are supposed to covet. Again, there are exceptions.

You can't make something absolute and then proceed to have exceptions!

Let me repeat: The commandment to love is absolute, but how that love is applied can vary with the circumstances.

[karl]

Mark & Karl:

The 4th commandment says: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:8-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

It says "you shall not do ANY work." If this was absolute, God would not have given exceptions! Exceptions which you acknowledge."

The 8th says: "You shall not steal." If not taking something from someone without their permission is absolute, then God would not have given exceptions.

The 9th: "You shall not bear false witness." Was Rahab condemned for protecting the Israeli spies by telling an untruth?

The 10th says: "You shall not covet." Yet there are things we are supposed to covet. Again, there are exceptions.

You can't make something absolute and then proceed to have exceptions!

Let me repeat: The commandment to love is absolute, but how that love is applied can vary with the circumstances.

You're not allowing God the "here a little, there a little" principle. You're making Him stick absolutely with everything He says the minute He says it. It would be like my stopping you in mid-sentence after you had said "I have got to kill Tom" and not letting you finish "if he breaks into my house and attacks my family."

If we stick to your rule, we have God telling Adam and Eve a lie.

The fact that God says something else after He says the first thing is additive, not contradictory.

[cardw]

Quote:

I agree Sivart that I do not know the absolute truth in all things, I am not claiming I do.

But here is an example.

We are only saved through the "merits of Christ".

Now when this was first explained to me, I thought "yes, I understand that".

But when I thought about it, it did not touch my heart.

So I went to the Lord and prayed for several days.

Then all of a sudden, I knew.

I would say that you probably experienced a sense of relief and something shifted within your awareness. That still does not mean that something is true.

As long as part of the perception is a human brain, you are going to get a different explanation of what truth is for each brain.

We all respond to discomfort and pain as well as sensations of peace, pleasure, and joy.

The fact is, in spite of all these heart felt insights, there is no real understanding of what is universally true. The world is essentially a mystery and it is only fear that has to make truth absolute.

[WayneV]

My answer to the OP would be "Something Else".

I like how Wesley viewed theology. He believe that as Christians our theology is shaped by four things, 1) Scripture, 2) Reason, 3) Experience, and 4) Tradition.

Scripture is the foundation of God's revelation to us. Reason, experience, and tradition are the three artisans that shape the theology, or dwelling place, which is built upon that foundation.

Just my $0.02.

Agape`

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Mark & Karl:

The 4th commandment says: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:8-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

It says "you shall not do ANY work." If this was absolute, God would not have given exceptions! Exceptions which you acknowledge."

The 8th says: "You shall not steal." If not taking something from someone without their permission is absolute, then God would not have given exceptions.

The 9th: "You shall not bear false witness." Was Rahab condemned for protecting the Israeli spies by telling an untruth?

The 10th says: "You shall not covet." Yet there are things we are supposed to covet. Again, there are exceptions.

You can't make something absolute and then proceed to have exceptions!

Let me repeat: The commandment to love is absolute, but how that love is applied can vary with the circumstances.

You're not allowing God the "here a little, there a little" principle. You're making Him stick absolutely with everything He says the minute He says it. It would be like my stopping you in mid-sentence after you had said "I have got to kill Tom" and not letting you finish "if he breaks into my house and attacks my family."

If we stick to your rule, we have God telling Adam and Eve a lie.

The fact that God says something else after He says the first thing is additive, not contradictory.

———————

ab•so•lute \ˈab-sə-ˌlüt, ˌab-sə-ˈ\ adj

[ME absolut, fr. AF, fr. L absolutus, fr. pp. of absolvere to set free, absolve] 14c

1 a : free from imperfection : perfect 〈it is a most absolute and excellent horse —Shak.〉

b : free or relatively free from mixture : pure 〈absolute alcohol〉

c : outright, unmitigated 〈an absolute lie〉

2 : being, governed by, or characteristic of a ruler or authority completely free from constitutional or other restraint 〈absolute power〉

3 a : standing apart from a normal or usual syntactical relation with other words or sentence elements 〈the absolute construction this being the case in the sentence “this being the case, let us go”〉

b of an adjective or possessive pronoun : standing alone without a modified substantive 〈blind in “help the blind” and ours in “your work and ours” are absolute〉

c of a verb : having no object in the particular construction under consideration though normally transitive 〈kill in “if looks could kill” is an absolute verb〉

4 : having no restriction, exception, or qualification 〈an absolute requirement〉 〈absolute freedom〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

[Woody]

Thank you Gerry. The point is well taken.

[olger]

Should be an easy question to answer --> Ain't no relativism in the BIBLE.

og out

[Woody]

Dear O gout ... you are seriously mistaken.

[olger]

Olger is correct.

Deadwood, on the other hand:

[Woody]

I ain't doin' nuthin'. You're the one that's workin' hard.

[karl]

The lesson for this week talks about the absolute goodness of God. Perhaps we should be talking about that rather than the relative musings of men.

I will grant you that God has made exceptions to His law, Gerry, with the warning that it is opening Pandora's Box for us humans to decide on other exceptions.

God rewarded Rahab for her deceit in hiding the Israelite spies...

[olger]

Rahab is not commended for breaking the Law of God, but for having a change of heart. If we sieze her example to suggest that lying is a good thing, we must also promote stealing because of the thief on the cross.

It is the repentent heart that God approves. He will bring such hearts into harmony with His will. "For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?"

g

[Tammy]

God rewarded Rahab for her deceit in hiding the Israelite spies...

No one is EVER rewarded for breaking the Law... She did the best thing she knew to do...and God rewarded her for that...inspite of her lack of knowledge...

[olger]

True, Sister.

g

[Gerr]

The lesson for this week talks about the absolute goodness of God. Perhaps we should be talking about that rather than the relative musings of men.

I will grant you that God has made exceptions to His law, Gerry, with the warning that it is opening Pandora's Box for us humans to decide on other exceptions.

Opening Pandora's box? Not at all. It was absolutist thinking that led the Jews to codify God's laws into, what was it, 613 commands?

that covered every possible decision-challenging situation so that no one has to think! The command to obey the law IS ABSOLUTE, but I

believe that God is less interested in how perfect we are in applying the law as He is in the motive, the kind of love that prompted it.

Quote:

God rewarded Rahab for her deceit in hiding the Israelite spies...

Deceit? Or was it faith prompting her to love that protects?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Mark & Karl:

The 4th commandment says: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:8-11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

It says "you shall not do ANY work." If this was absolute, God would not have given exceptions! Exceptions which you acknowledge."

The 8th says: "You shall not steal." If not taking something from someone without their permission is absolute, then God would not have given exceptions.

The 9th: "You shall not bear false witness." Was Rahab condemned for protecting the Israeli spies by telling an untruth?

The 10th says: "You shall not covet." Yet there are things we are supposed to covet. Again, there are exceptions.

You can't make something absolute and then proceed to have exceptions!

Let me repeat: The commandment to love is absolute, but how that love is applied can vary with the circumstances.

You're not allowing God the "here a little, there a little" principle. You're making Him stick absolutely with everything He says the minute He says it. It would be like my stopping you in mid-sentence after you had said "I have got to kill Tom" and not letting you finish "if he breaks into my house and attacks my family."

If we stick to your rule, we have God telling Adam and Eve a lie.

The fact that God says something else after He says the first thing is additive, not contradictory.

Indeed.

And to add to this.

When God says you shall do no work, He is talking about us doing "our work".

Not His work.

So the example you have used Gerry, does not really stand in my view.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

I agree Sivart that I do not know the absolute truth in all things, I am not claiming I do.

But here is an example.

We are only saved through the "merits of Christ".

Now when this was first explained to me, I thought "yes, I understand that".

But when I thought about it, it did not touch my heart.

So I went to the Lord and prayed for several days.

Then all of a sudden, I knew.

I would say that you probably experienced a sense of relief and something shifted within your awareness. That still does not mean that something is true.

As long as part of the perception is a human brain, you are going to get a different explanation of what truth is for each brain.

We all respond to discomfort and pain as well as sensations of peace, pleasure, and joy.

The fact is, in spite of all these heart felt insights, there is no real understanding of what is universally true. The world is essentially a mystery and it is only fear that has to make truth absolute.

If truth is "relative" then truth does not exist.

Not Absolute Truth.

Then if that is the case, Satan and God are both right...

Does not sound right to me... :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Rahab is not commended for breaking the Law of God, but for having a change of heart. If we sieze her example to suggest that lying is a good thing, we must also promote stealing because of the thief on the cross.

It is the repentent heart that God approves. He will bring such hearts into harmony with His will. "For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?"

g

Good point.

[Woody]

The knowledge that we know of is certainly not absolute. For we only see it dimly.