Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[SivartM]

If we live into infinity, we will be able to learn an infinite amount of things.

So we really will learn "all things". Just not in the next 30 years. :)

[skyblue888]

Oldsailor, you said: "For example, 'a great multitude which cannot be numbered,' is an infinite number of people."

This does not mean that that number is "infinite" but that only God knows who are His. No man can "number" Israel.

Gerry, you said: "Knowledge is infinite, so the 'all things' may just be all things necessary for us to get out of this planet alive."

That is exactly the point. I believe I said the same thing in one of my posts.

You also added, "If you can learn 'all things' in this short life-span, then knowledge is extremely limited, and eternity would be so boring we'd be tempted to invent mischief all over again!

Of course. The "all things" for the here and now is extremely limited compared to what we will be able to learn throughout eternity. The "all things" for this life is not even a drop in the bucket.

And no matter how much we have come to understand, compared with what God knows, it is less than nothingness. This is why I believe our confession will always be a humble one. We know so little compared to what God knows. In fact we know less than nothingness. And yet the Scriptures declare that the Holy Spirit shall teach us all things.

I am sure the angels or the inhabitants of the other worlds have come to understand many many things but we can be just as certain that they never brag about anything but that they always give credit to whom credit is due, that of themselves they know absolutey nothing at all, and that every good gift comes from the Father above, that if they know anything at all, they always acknowledge that it is wholly attributable to the goodness and mercy of God through Christ by the Spirit.

"And if any man thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

This is true of any of God's creatures, be they angels or men.

sky

[Gerr]

If we live into infinity, we will be able to learn an infinite amount of things.

So we really will learn "all things". Just not in the next 30 years.

Agreed. Well, almost. Will we ever know as much as God? NO WAY!!! The "all things" being argued about seems to be here and now, in this lifetime. NO WAY!!!

[skyblue888]

I have and I am sure most people have, at some point, met such individuals. Are you sure you haven't oldsailor? But if we happen to meet such ones, claiming to know it all, we may know that they are a fake, for though the children of God may "know all things" through the anointing, in Christ they are kept meek and lowly and their natural confession is the confession of faith, "We know nothing yet as we ought to know it" as it is written, "If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know it." 1 Cor.8:2.

This is the Spirit of the Gospel. This will always be the attitude of the true children of God eventhough they may know the "all things" of the Scriptures.

"He--the Holy Spirit--will teach you all things." John 14:26.

You said, "Well of course, in a finite world there is a finite amount of things to know."

There is no limit. We cannot put a limit on what the Holy Spirit can teach us, even in this world. As a man Jesus was finite. He learned everything by faith living in a finite world, just like us. As a man He thirsted for knowledge and God the Father did not disappoint him.

"His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

Even in this world, the Knowledge we acquire is given according to our capacity to receive.

Did you not appreciate this amazing quote?

"Every revelation of God to the soul increases the capacity to know and to love. The continual cry of the heart is, 'More of Thee,' and ever the Spirit's answer is, "Much more." M.B.20.

sky

[oldsailor29]

OH, I seeeeeee. When you said we will learn all things, you meant all necessary things. With that, I wholeheartedly agree. Forgive me for not understanding that was what you meant.

[Woody]

Quote:

you meant all necessary things

meaning blood?

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

you meant all necessary things

meaning blood?

What does that mean?

[Woody]

What's important for us to understand is ...

The sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. That is the Gospel. The rest is gravy.

It's ALL about the blood.

[skyblue888]

If we can't put a limit on what God can teach us here and now, just think how much we will be able to learn throughout eternity!

sky

[Woody]

Nothing but the Blood

Text: Robert Lowry

Music: Robert Lowry

Tune: PLAINFIELD, Meter: 78.78 with Refrain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. What can wash away my sin?

Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

What can make me whole again?

Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Refrain:

O precious is the flow

that makes me white as snow;

no other fount I know;

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

2. For my pardon this I see:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my cleansing this my plea:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

(Refrain)

3. Nothing can for sin atone:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Naught of good that I have done:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

(Refrain)

4. This is all my hope and peace:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my righteousness:

nothing but the blood of Jesus.

(Refrain)

[skyblue888]

Mrs White once stated that "we need every ray of light that God sends in order to be the light of the world." I am looking for the reference right now.

She was shown that "light increases for God's people as the close of time draws near." Medical Ministry,187.

"If God has any new light He will let His people know it." Eealy Wwritings, 124.

"We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.708.

"We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought before others. When God's people are at ease and satisfied with their present enlightenment, we may be sure that He will not favor them. It is His will that they should be ever moving forward to receive the increased and ever-increasing light which is shining on them. The present attitude of the church is not pleasing to God. There has come in a self-confidence that has led to feel no necessity for more truth and greater light. We are living at a time when Satan is at work on the right hand and on the left, before and behind us; and yet as a people we are asleep. God wills that a voice shall be heard arousing His people to action. Instead of opening the soul to receive rays of light from Heaven, some have been working in an opposite direction." Ibid, p.708,9.

However, "God will give His people no more light, until they follow that already given." LS 199.

sky

[karl]

The question always is; "Does the new light contradict the prior light?"

It needs to incorporate and build on the prior light. Most of the stuff I've seen in the past 30 years which purports to be "new light" contradicts the truth we've already received.

[Musicman1228]

So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. John 12:35.

To say that 'new light' will never contradict 'old light' itself contradicts what Jesus said in the above text. My take on this text is that 'light' is constantly moving, and if you don't walk in it, move with it, it will move away from you and leave you in darkness.

This understanding flies in the face of those that say that 'new light' will only add to 'old light' and not replace it. This does not appear to be the truth.

By example:

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:19-21.

We have all been taught that when you come into the light your natural response will be to do what is right, even though doing what is right is not important now that we are saved by grace. The above text seems to contradict that belief by saying that in order to come into the light you must do (practice) the truth. Do what is right first, come into the light second. This would appear to be 'new truth', yet it has been in Scripture for 2000 years. It seems to me that 'new truth' has always been there we just have to have 'new eyes' to see it.

[Guest]

Yes truth advances. But truth is also absolute. If it was true in 1844, then it's still true today.

Example: When Jesus returns with power and glory, over 2000 years will have lapsed since He left. Will it still be true that He is the son of God, or will it have changed?

Will the seventh day still be the Sabbath, or has it changed?

After the wicked suffer the second death, will the dead still know nothing, or will they get up and walk around?

You see, foundational truth never changes.

[wayfinder]

Richard: The truth in 1844 was that Christ would return on October 22, is this still true?

[Guest]

You're wrong, that was never the truth. It it were He would have come. They had the date right but the event wrong.

Come on wayfinder, surely you can do better than that.

[wayfinder]

Richard, what I said was, that one of the truths in 1844 was that Christ would return on October 22, this very obviously was not true. My question was, if one of the truths of the advent people were wrong, than how many others were wrong? It would be nieve to assume that everything else was true just because thats what we want to believe.

[Guest]

That was never one of our foundational truths, put in place by God. In fact, there was no such thing as a SDA in 1844.

[Guest]

Truth is singular and absolute.

[wayfinder]

Richard, in your post #338408 you said if it was true in 1844 it is still true today, my response was to this statement.

[Guest]

And I stick by that statement. But what you named was not true in 1844, or any other time up to the present.

[wayfinder]

But Richard, they, the Advent people believed it with all their heart and waited all day and night for the second advent of Christ. This belief was as true to them at the time as all the other beliefs. How many other beliefs, held to be truth in 1844 are not true, just like the one of the second advent to occur on October 22, 1844?

[Guest]

They were led by God to the foundational truths that we hold. How can you believe that God led them into error, and set them up with a false prophet, and still call it God's church. That's absurd. Is that the way God has led his people in the past? No. Never. Was it ever prophecied that God would give his people a bunch of false doctrines and a Satan inspired prophet? Use your whole brain man.

[WayneV]

Yes truth advances. But truth is also absolute. If it was true in 1844, then it's still true today.

Example:...Will the seventh day still be the Sabbath, or has it changed?...

You see, foundational truth never changes.

It is interesting that you bring up the seventh day Sabbath in relation to 1844. It is my understanding that William Miller's group were not known as Seventh-day Adventists, only as Adventists, since they believed that Sunday was either; 1) the Sabbath or 2) the Lord's day. In either case, the truth was that they worshipped on Sunday initially. However, they were wise enough that when "new" light was presented, they recognized and accepted it - even though it directly contradicted what they had already accepted as truth.

I will grant you that the truth was and is that the Sabbath falls on the seventh day. However, are we really talking about what truth is, or are we talking about what the church (people) believe to be the truth? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Agape`

[cardw]

You're wrong, that was never the truth. It it were He would have come. They had the date right but the event wrong.

That's why none of this stuff is credible. As soon as something is shown to be wrong, no matter how sure the leadership was that the holy spirit was leading, future believers simply claim that it wasn't what god was saying all along.

With this system if people get it right then it must be god. If people get it wrong then it's people's fault.

There is no honest accountability here. It's a smoke and mirrors god. As the Wizard of Oz states "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."