Relativisim and Absolutism in Bible Study...

[Guest]

Woody,

If truth is relative to the one viewing it then there is no ultimate truth and we move into philosophy. If there is no standard for truth then your truth is sufficient for you and my truth is sufficient for me and 'never the twain shall meet'.

It is my understanding that the 10 Commandments are the standard of truth

I actually agree with this part of what you said MM. Then you started going off on some strange belief that we have the same mother as Jesus or some such nonsense. That's where you lost me, and pretty much anybody else who studies the Bible. Because that belief is nowhere to be found in scripture.

[SivartM]

Well, apparently HE found it in scripture.

The question is whether or not it is true.

Which I doubt very much. But I'm sure he has proof texts. Maybe even exegesis. He might even have a 100-page study of the original languages. For all I know he was on Oprah yesterday, or even (however unlikely) 3ABN.

And I bet he even prayed before he studied.

[Guest]

He takes Rev 12:17 and tries to make the case that the word "WOMAN" represents the Holy Spirit, instead of God's people, or the Church.

[SivartM]

I don't think that he is correct, but... what makes you so sure you are correct? Would you risk your life on your interpretation of Revelation 12:17?

[Guest]

You run in to a little problem with that when you look at Rev 12:6

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Since when has the HS ever needed to flee and hide and to be fed?

[SivartM]

I understand the problems with his interpretation... but I am asking how you know that the woman is the church. And I don't mean a list of proof texts, I mean HOW you are certain that your interpretation is correct. Would you risk your life on it? Or is this particular truth not that absolute?

[Guest]

Yes I would bet my life that Ellen white had it right, and that MM got it wrong. That's a no brainer. Paul had it right too.

In Revelation 17 Babylon is represented as a woman --a figure which is used in the Bible as the symbol of a church, a virtuous woman representing a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. {GC 381.1}

[SivartM]

I don't think it's a no-brainer. Musicman most likely has a brain. It may be very obvious to someone who believes in the writings of Paul and Ellen White, but obviously Musicman does not. If you did not believe in Ellen White you would probably be far less confident in your interpretation.

Which makes me wonder where the elusive sola scriptura went. I have a hunch, however, that it never existed at all.

[Guest]

I gave you the quick answer because I don't have time to take you through a Bible study. But yes it can be proven from scripture only. William Miller got it right before EGW ever came on the scene. And Paul understood it before William Miller did.

If you cannot prove what you believe with scripture, and don't think Adventism ever could have been. Then why are you SDA?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

You said our understanding of the bible is coloured by us.

Did you read the posts I made on that subject?

Yes, that's why I asked you what you meant by the Bible being absolute. To me only God IS absolute. If you ask me, do I believe that the Bible is God's revelation to man? ABSOLUTELY!!! Is it absolutely the most perfect revelation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! But it's absolutely the best He could do!

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets," Heb 1:1

Why many times and in many ways? Because the medium of communication is imperfect! That's what the Bible is - an imperfect medium of communication. That's why God used so many different metaphors to illustrate the plan of salvation such as:

1. The Atonement & the sandbox illustration in the Sanctuary service.

2. The Covenant model.

3. Reconciliation.

4. Propitiation.

5. Adoption.

6. New birth.

7. Justification and the court model.

8. Redemption.

9. Grafting.

10. Heart transplantation.

Each of these illustrations gives us an insight and answers certain questions about the plan of salvation, but they all come short at some point. That's why the plan of salvation is a subject that will be studied well into eternity.

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, Heb 1:2

Christ was/is God's absolutely the best revelation of Himself to us because Jesus is the "exact representation of His image" - NIV, "the very image of His substance," AV, "the exact imprint of His nature," ESV. Nevertheless, how is Jesus revealed to us? Absolutely perfectly? ABSOLUTELY NOT! His 33 years of life is compressed into 4 short gospels that do not even all say the same things! Let me repeat - the revelation that comes to us in the person of Jesus Christ is absolute, but He comes to us in an absolutely imperfect medium.

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Or do you think the bible is "relative" in truth?

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I hope the above statements give you my answer.

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I am surprised to hear this from you, so ask you to clarify.

For instance:

Thou shalt not steal, is that relative?

It may sound silly to you, but how do you define stealing? Do you mean taking anything that belongs to somebody without permission? If so, then let me give you what the Bible says that seems to imply to me that the command, "thou shalt not steal" may be relative.

"If you go into your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. If you go into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor’s standing grain." Dt 23:24-25 ESV.-

The only absolute commandments that I know of are the 1 - thou shalt love, and the 2 - (a)you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart etc. AND (b)you shall love your neighbor as yourself. While the 10c are not 10 suggestions, the application of the 10c can be variable depending on the circumstances. You mentioned the Sabbath. The priests did a lot of work on the Sabbath, especially if the Day of Atonement fell on that day.

Think about it.

[John317]

If we let the Bible interpret itself, the woman in Rev. 12: 1 is the people of God. A woman in Bible prophecy and elsewhere in Scripture is a symbol of the church. A pure church is represented by a pure woman, and a corrupt church by a corrupt woman. The male child born to the woman is Jesus the Messiah, who came from the children of Israel.

This is a well established viewpoint of this passage among both non-SDA commentators (for instance, Henri Alford, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry) as well as all SDA commentators, including Ellen G. White. I find the evidence that they give for this viewpoint very convincing, if not conclusive. I've considered other interpretations, but I don't believe they are supported by very strong evidence.

It seems to me the evidence for this viewpoint is about as strong as the evidence supporting the Sabbath, the non-immortality of the soul, and the Investigative Judgment, etc. Not surprisingly, however, many people doubt the truth of each one of those doctrines. But then many people doubt that Christ existed or that God Himself exists.

As the apostle Paul said, "Let every man be perusaded in his own mind."

[SivartM]

I gave you the quick answer because I don't have time to take you through a Bible study. But yes it can be proven from scripture only. William Miller got it right before EGW ever came on the scene. And Paul understood it before William Miller did.

If you cannot prove what you believe with scripture, and don't think Adventism ever could have been. Then why are you SDA?

[SivartM]

If we let the Bible interpret itself

Unless you have a talking Bible which I don't have... I think you mean if we use the Bible to help us interpret it. The phrase above is one of those phrases that everyone says until it doesn't mean anything at all. Like "Bible-believing". Whenever I hear about a "Bible-believing church" I wonder which Bible they believe in, the Adventist Bible, the Baptist Bible, the Nondenominational Bible, the Pentecostal Bible...

[Guest]

Siv, do you enjoy playing word games?

[SivartM]

Yes, I do. And this is probably one of them, but please bear with me.

I just want us all to understand each other a little bit more. You can't love a "heretic". You can love someone who has certain incorrect beliefs in your understanding.

[Guest]

I love a heretic.

[Gerr]

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The point I am making is that the bible itself is absolute in its inspiration.

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement, but I absolutely believe that the Bible is absolutely inspired by God.

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It is men that are the problem.

The men that come to the bible.

I agree that people is THE major problem. But I believe the Bible is A major problem as well. It comes to from ancient languages that are now dead, from cultures that think differently, many parts of which are written in parables, metaphors, highly symbolic apocalyptic language, and then we bring to it our own tinted glasses. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to help us understand it and convict us of the truth found in it.

Can two humble, honest, truth-seeking, praying people come up with two different views?

I believe they can, because the Christian life is a journey. We do not all arrive at the same spot at the same time. I believe God reveals to us what we need at each particular point in the journey. As Jesus told His disciples, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." Jn 16:12 ESV.

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The moment we move off of the rock of the bible being absolute truth, we are lost.

That there are absolute truths revealed in the Bible I believe absolutely. For instance: the Bible teaches that God exists, that He is Creator, that Jesus came as a man, that He died, that He was resurrected, that He is coming again, that He will re-create and restore a new earth, etc. These are all absolute truths. But when you say the Bible is absolute truth, that's when you lose me.

I never thought for a moment that someone is going to be lost because they don't believe the way I do because I only "see through d mirror dimly" and only "know in part." But even if I knew everything, my knowledge is not the benchmark that determines other's salvation.

[SivartM]

I love a heretic.

Do you, or do you love someone who believes differently than you? Heretics are people we burn at the stake. We love those who are wrong.

And no, I'm not saying that you would burn someone at the stake. Just pointing out the historical usage.

[Guest]

No no. We don't burn them at the stake anymore. That is so 18th century.

I love Dr. Rich, and he is as much a heretic as anyone can be. And what makes it worse, is the fact that he insists on calling himself SDA, while he believes very very little of what SDAs believe.

[Musicman1228]

Now you are starting act and speak like Richard; are you taking lessons?

My point was that at the end of time there are people who are living on earth that do the two things God commanded them to do in order to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven; they keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev.12:17) They are born of the same Woman that gave birth to Jesus Christ. They are His brothers and sisters; family members that have the family name. This is what the passage says, I am not making it up.

Jesus said in John 3 that in order to be in the Kingdom of Heaven one must be born of the Holy Spirit. NO ONE that has sin still in them has been born of the Holy Spirit, at least according to the words of Jesus Christ. No one that is a slave to sin has been born of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus breathed on the Disciples in the upper room just before He left for Heaven were they completely without sin? I don't know, you tell me. Is Jesus anywhere recorded as acknowledging them to be righteous (without sin) as He did to Noah, Enoch, Elijah and Daniel? Again, you tell me.

The Holy Spirit DOES work with anyone that is sincere of heart and seeking the truth. But does the Holy Spirit actually enter anyone (indwell) for the purpose of sealing them in the truth if they still harbor lies, even if those lies are unknown to them?

It certainly is possible (I see it all the time) for someone to believe a lie as if it the complete truth, without acknowledging any accountability for that belief. Can God co-exist in the same space as sin? No. This is why Jesus threw Satan out of Heaven (Rev.12:7-9) This is why God the Father left the 1st Temple in Jerusalem; because the corrupt priests of Israel were working evil inside the very place where they were telling the people that God dwelt. This is why when the curtain was torn asunder from top to bottom the moment Jesus Christ died on the cross and revealed that the Arc of the Covenant and the Shekinah glory were no longer in the Temple, this exposed the lies of the priests that had been telling the people all along that God was still with them, when in fact he had left them hundreds of years before.

God CANNOT live were there is sin, either as a physical presence or as a spiritual one. This fact is one of the things that made what Jesus did in coming to this planet so spectacular. Coming to this cesspool from Heaven was the most selfless act God could have done, short of putting His own Son on the cross. And yet even in the face of this we sinners make a claim so self-promoting and absurd as to be ludicrous on it's face: we say that by claiming Jesus as our personal savior we can put His robe of righteousness over our own filthy rags, and then think that we can hid that filth from the face of the Father, thus avoiding eternal destruction. The fact is that Jesus teaches through His word is that you cannot hide your sin from the Father merely by claiming an association with His son. It is not the responsibility of Jesus to hide your sin from the Father, or the responsibility of the Father to look the other way and deliberately not see the sin under the robe of Christ.

What Jesus did was pay the penalty for your sin, but it is STILL YOUR SIN until you get rid of it through the arduous process of SANCTIFICATION. Your sin must be removed from you completely and placed on the Alter of Incense through the blood of the Passover Lamb. You have been lied too when you have been told that salvation is a gift of Christ by grace through faith. Yet in spite of all of the warning that Jesus has given you through His words you will believe the lies of an impostor over the truth, because it is what you want to believe.

Faith is believing a lie as if it is the truth, without accountability.

This is why I will listen ONLY to the words of Jesus Christ as given by His eyewitnesses. It is only there where truth can be found.

[Musicman1228]

No no. We don't burn them at the stake anymore. That is so 18th century.

I love Dr. Rich, and he is as much a heretic as anyone can be. And what makes it worse, is the fact that he insists on calling himself SDA, while he believes very very little of what SDAs believe.

Richard, would you have burned Jesus Christ as a heretic because He disagrees with you? That is what the leadership of the Jews wanted to do, and in the end had their way with HIm. Are you in that camp? Are you truly as arrogant and self serving as you appear, or is it an act? I really can't tell. Maybe, just maybe, it is Dr. Rich that is the true SDA here and not you. At least he is willing to listen to your rantings without getting personal. I cannot say the same for you with respect to either him, me or anyone else that doesn't fit your mold as to what a 'good' SDA should be.

I do love you as a brother in Christ, Richard, but you do disappoint me sometimes.

[SivartM]

I do love you as a brother in Christ, Richard, but you do disappoint me sometimes.

Mhmm. Isn't that what they said before they burned people at the stake?

Musicman, the Jesus in whom I have faith said, "Your faith has saved you." I'm not going to argue about this "false gospel" you think I have. But frankly, you don't sound much better than you think Richard is.

[Guest]

uh thank you Siv?

[Guest]

MM why don't you answer my challenge over on "How much of Scripture is Inspired" so I don't have to repeat it. And so you can stop hijacking this thread.

You actually have more faith than most of the people here, and I can prove it.

[wayfinder]

SivartM, The only place you find this statement is in an account by the disciple of the preacher of salvation by faith, Luke. This account written by Luke is unique to Luke.