What is meant by ...

[phkrause]

Thanks PK and everyone who prayed for my son--for your prayers have been answered. I just left his hospital room and the medical personal are really surprised how well he is doing, and even that he survived at all! The hospital is the new St. Francis in Colorado Springs and what a wonderful place and wonderful people who work there! Praise God for all He does for us and most of the time we don't even realize it.

Well Praise the Lord Dr. Rich. Yes he does a lot for us. And most of the time we don't even know it, or just take it for granted.

pk

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "Babylon is a religous system right here on planet earth, not a starship from outer space."

I do agree with you on the last part of your sentence. I think there has been a lot of emphasis placed on science fiction ideas than on the structure and content of prophecy. And while I agree that it is possible that what Ezekiel saw was some kind of space craft the idea that there is a single giant space vehicle with the name 'Babylon' smacks of flights of fancy rather that down to earth exegesis.

Actually, Babylon is the Great City, AKA. Jerusalem. Look it up.

[Dr. Rich]

Good point MM. Because it says "Babylon has fallen, has fallen, is a clue as to who or what this refers to. God's chosen people, Israel, were given two chances to overcome sin and become righteous and they failed both times. Therefore, this very well could mean that this "Babylon" is none other than Jerusalem--and since the whole world will some day be ruled from the rulers in Jerusalem, this message is for that time. Anyway, that is my take.

[Guest]

[Musicman1228]

Richard, don't roll your eyes, answer the question. You prove nothing by your 'cute' response, just that you have no response. Is that because you think Dr. Rich and I are right? Or is it because you can't prove us wrong? If you can prove us wrong I'd certainly love to see it, as I am always willing to learn.

[Guest]

I have proven you wrong so many times, it's not even fun anymore. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge when somebody proves you wrong is your problem, not mine.

I've seen others prove you wrong too. Same response. You don't actually want to be proved wrong, you just want someone to argue with you, so you can have someone to bounce more of your theories off of.

[Musicman1228]

Your proof has only been your own word, not the words in Scripture as given by eyewitnesses. I'm sorry to disabuse you of the notion that you have proved anything to me, you have not. You view Scripture as a personal tool designed to confirm your own personal beliefs, which are far from the whole truth. It is not I that refuse to see the words of Jesus Christ as preeminent, that is your purview. To you His words are of no greater import than those of Paul or of EGW. In view of this dichotomy of interest I suggest that rather than trying to prove the other wrong we just express our views and let the chips fall where they may.

[Guest]

How many times have I shown you from the words of Jesus, (which you claim to except, but don't) that you're wrong when you say Jesus never said you need faith? Only to be ignored. John317 has proven to you that the Holy Spirit is not a woman, or the mother of Jesus. Only to be ignored. I showed one of you just the other day that it was Jesus Christ who dealt with Abraham, back in OT times. Only to be ignored. So you saying that it is only by my own word just doesn't ring true.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, I don't have any problem with what you believe, because you have written it many times and yes, you have used scripture as evidence for your believe, but it can't be called proof. It might be proof to you, but the court has not yet set and the jury is still out.

I must be frank with you--I still don't have all of the answers myself and that is why I just call myself a student searching for the truth.

You rolled your eyes at my words about Babylon falling twice. Do you have any better evidence for why God said this twice? I would like to hear it or see it.

[Archie777]

I am hearing right? Babylon in the Revelation symbolizes a mobile space-city that will park on earth and persecute people who do not go along with her sins?

[Musicman1228]

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. Rev.11:7-8.

Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.” Rev.14:8.

The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. Rev.16:19.

And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.Rev. 18:2.

They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.” Rev.18:10.

When you put it all together the only conclusion that makes any sense is that Babylon is 'the Great City' where 'their Lord was crucified' is Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel, and 'Is Fallen, is Fallen'. God gave Israel two chances to become His bride and they blew both chances. They fell once to Nebuchadnezzar and went into captivity. The were restored to their land in 457 BCE by decree and were given 490 years to become the Kingdom of Heaven again, but at the end of the 490 years they rejected their King and that was the end for them. Jerusalem is twice fallen. Jerusalem is also where the Lord of the Two Witnesses was crucified, just as they will be.

Jerusalem is the 'great city' Babylon.

[Archie777]

Babylon, the great city, Sodom, and Egypt all symbolize Jerusalem. Is that what you're saying? Does it mean then that those prophecies reached their fulfillment in AD 34?

Would it be accurate to say you disagree with the conclusions drawn by Ellen White in the Great Controversy regarding the symbolic meaning of Babylon, the great city?

[Musicman1228]

The prophecies in Revelation have nothing to do with the prophecies of the end of the 490 years in 33 CE. They are only for the final generation to understand, and their fulfillment is yet to be.

And, yes I completely disagree with the conclusions drawn by EGW as to the symbolic meaning of 'Babylon'. It is clear to me that Babylon the Great is the current city of Jerusalem where in the near future all of the major religions of the world will be united under the banner of the first beast of Rev. 13.

[Guest]

The prophecies in Revelation have nothing to do with the prophecies of the end of the 490 years in 33 CE. They are only for the final generation to understand, and their fulfillment is yet to be.

[Musicman1228]

Let me restate what I thought I made plain; we were speaking of prophecies of the end of time. Revelation does contains information about events that occurred in the past, such as Satan being thrown off of Heaven. I believe this occurred right after the resurrection of Jesus Christ when He went to Heaven as the Wave Sheaf offering. This happened in 30 CE. I was speaking directly about those prophecies that are tied to the timing of the appointed time of the end, things such as the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of Wrath. Sorry if this was confusing.

Now, Richard, if you decide to stick with a true prophet why don't you stick with Jesus Christ the Son of God rather than someone who has been proven time and again to have been in error. EGW is not 100% correct in everything she has said, far from it. Although it would take and act of God for you to believe that this is true. Be careful, you may just get that act of God sooner than you think.

By the way, I am sorry that I mistook what someone else said and credited it to you. I misread the author's name. I will try to make sure of who it is that I am responding too before I make my comments.

[Archie777]

Musicman, thank you for clarifying what you believe.

[Guest]

Did God, or Jesus tell us that we no longer needed any other prophets? No. In fact, in the book of Revelation, it shows that God's last day people will have the Spirit of prophecy.

[Dr. Rich]

Ya, and the Spirit of Prophecy is the Holy Spirit, how do you like that?

[Musicman1228]

Yes, Richard, we will have the Spirit of Prophecy. You believe that is EGW, I know that it is the Holy Spirit. Since Revelation only applies to those who are living in the final generation who will undergo the events listed in Revelation the understanding of Daniel and hence Revelation is only unsealed to that generation. This does not include EGW because she is dead and was not living in the final generation. No one that is now dead could have the understanding necessary to correctly interpret the prophecies of either Daniel or Revelation. God didn't give this information to Daniel so why would you think He would give this information to anyone else before the time of the end.

I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”   He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Dan. 12:8-9.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Ya, and the Spirit of Prophecy is the Holy Spirit, how do you like that?

Seventh-day Adventists know the Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit that manifests Himself through the prophets, or by the gift of prophecy. He is the Spirit that speaks forth through the mouths of the prophets. He testifies, or gives witness, to Jesus Christ.

[Musicman1228]

Seventh-day Adventists believe that EGW IS the Spirit of Prophecy. That is NOT what is says in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Prophecy, and that Spirit was made end time prophecy known through the greatest prophecy-Jesus Christ, and through Daniel and John in Revelation. EGW was wrong too many times for her to be a reliable source for prophetic truth. The Seventh Trumpet has not sounded as she said in GC page 433. She said that Noah preached 120 years and Jesus said he did not preach to anyone (Matt.24:36). If someone who calls themselves a prophet makes ONE mistake concerning end time events then they are not a prophet of God. EGW's first vision at Lovetts Grove established the 'shut door principle', which was later abrogated by the brethren, after which she recanted it. The Advent movement existed long before EGW can onto the scene, and will exist after she is laid aside in favor of truth.

Nowhere in the cannons of the SDA church is it said that EGW is a test of membership. The only requirement for the remnant is that 'they keep the Commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.' This is how I identify the SDA church. Anything else is superfluous.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matt. 24:36)

This proves Ellen White is wrong in regards to Noah?

[Musicman1228]

I didn't mean for you to stop at verse 36. Here is the whole quote:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.  As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt 24:36-39.

If Jesus is correct, and we know He is because He is God and cannot lie, then those living at the time of the flood DID NOT KNOW that their destruction was coming upon them. This can mean only one thing; Noah did not warn anyone that a flood was coming, he merely built the ark according to the specifications laid out by God, and when the time came got on board with His family and the animals God brought. EGW clearly says that Noah preached 120 years. Only one of these people can be right. You choose.

[Guest]

How lame can you get MM? Are you going to tell me, that in all seriousness, you can't see how both of these can be true? They didn't know because they thought Noah was crazy, and nobody believed him. It doesn't mean he didn't try to tell them.

You get just a little further out there everyday don't you? Like a ship tossed on the waves, without a compass or an anchor.

God showed the prophet your kind a hundred years ago.

Point after point was established by the Lord God of heaven. That which was truth then, is truth today. But the voices do not cease to be heard--"This is truth. I have new light." But these new lights in prophetic lines are manifest in misapplying the Word and setting the people of God adrift without an anchor to hold them. 2SM 104

It is true that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. But very erroneous work has been done again and again, and will continue to be done by those who seek to find new light in the prophecies, and who begin by turning away from the light that God has already given. The messages of Revelation 14 are those by which the world is to be tested; they are the everlasting gospel and are to be sounded everywhere.—Manuscript 32, 1896 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 17, pp. 12-15).

[wayfinder]

Genesis 6:14,18 "Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood ; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch.

"But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark -you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

Richard I challenge you to show me anywhere in Genesis where God tells Noah to preach and warn the inhabitants of earth. God makes it very clear that the reason He is destroying the whole earth with a flood is because the whole earth has passed the point of redemption. Preaching to the lost in Noah's day would be like warning those in the second resurrection that they need to change their ways or they will die the second death. Judgment had already been decided against mankind, and that judgment was death by drowning. Noah was the only one who was not guilty of death, therefore God told him to build a boat so he would not drown with the unrighteous. This is the same condition that the great city Babylon is in when God says "come out of her my people". It was the same condition that Sodom and the cities of the plan were in when God told Lot and his family to leave or be killed with the rest of the inhabitants of Sodom.