What is meant by ...

[Guest]

Sorry teresaq, I didn't realize I had to present EGW's whole vision about the shut door to anyone here because I thought most have investigated it for themselves. She said she had a vision from God that showed her that only those who were on the road with them (AT THAT TIME) would be saved and that time was over for allowing anyone else to come in (be saved). In fact, Elferd Lee, a well known SDA artist, painted the picture as a mural on the wall at the GC on this vision. I know this, because my wife and I were used as models and were painted as being on this road.

But even those at the GC know that this vision was not the truth. Yes, they know she was wrong, but they still "tolerate the woman" (see Rev. 2:20)

Rich, you've never really studied much on your own have you? Show me where you think she said nobody else could be saved.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, please check out: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw15.htm

[Aliensanctuary]

The Kingdom of YHVH likely doesn't have much to do with man-made religions. It will be such a shocker to discover that many of our religious beliefs are erroneous, or outright myths, that we may be very upset with those who have brainwashed us with denominational falsehoods. We may possess a few tiny little nuggets of truth, but still we suffer from near-blindness because the sunglasses we are wearing are so dark. Being nearly blind, we can't help arriving at mistaken conclusions, like the blind men trying to describe an elephant by touching different parts, hopelessly trying to arrive at a consensus, then passing off their conflicting conclusions to other blind people.

If we could only remove our sunglasses and see the mother lode of reality. The Kingdom of YHVH likely isn't what we think it is. We should study the scriptures ourselves with open minds, treating other’s possibly mistaken opinions as suspect.

Popular preachers, and otherwise, have committed a great disservice by preaching that the Messiah could come at any moment. This falsehood is perpetuated by organizations based mainly on money, not the truth. There is a definite sequence of events in the Last Days leading up to the return of the Anointed One. To perpetuate religious falsehood in order to fund denominations is a great tragedy.

[Guest]

Richard, please check out: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw15.htm

I'm not going to some anti Ellen White website to read a bunch of nonsense. I asked YOU to show me where she said that. (in her writings) If you can't do it, then you ought to shut up about it. Because all you're doing is spreading lies that you heard somewhere else.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Richard, please check out: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw15.htm

Man, that website is chock full of anti EGW stuff, as well as things written by Rea and Ratzlaff. But it doesn't say who operates the website, and that always makes me suspicious.

[teresaq]

Sorry teresaq, I didn't realize I had to present EGW's whole vision about the shut door to anyone here because I thought most have investigated it for themselves. She said she had a vision from God that showed her that only those who were on the road with them (AT THAT TIME) would be saved and that time was over for allowing anyone else to come in (be saved).

i read the whole vision. i read what she wrote. could you point out, from the vision and what she herself said, where it says what you say it says. i missed it somehow. thanks for your cooperation. :)

[wayfinder]

“While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them when a voice said to me, ‘Look again, and look a little higher.’ At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the midnight cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming”.

Ellen White, A Word to the Little Flock, p.14.

[Guest]

Wayfinder, did you somehow misunderstand both Teresa's request, and my request, to be shown where in the vision that she said: no one else could be saved?

We've both read the vision. That's not the problem. The problem is that it doesn't say what Rich said it does. I thought we made that pretty clear.

[Dr. Rich]

teresaq, please do your own research as I did. I did not trust those who held the key to the EGW estate and had to do my own deep research and found about the same as what others have also found. I also think it is sad that those who guard the EGW estate think they need to keep the "Early Writings" a secret, the ones where she tells of her visions on about the shut door.

[John317]

As for EGW-I just don't give a whim about what she said anymore--why should I? If she lied about the 'shut door policy' then why should I believe anything she said?

But she didn't lie about the "shut-door." As you know, "lying" is saying an untruth with the intention of deceiving, and there's not a bit of evidence to suggest that she was trying to deceive anyone by what she said on the "shut-door."

That would be like people saying you lied because you said something you honestly believed to be true but which was not in fact true. That is clearly not lying. It is being mistaken and wrong, yes, but not "lying." And anyone who wants to study the topic can easily see that no one denies Ellen White was wrong about the shut-door.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, Aliensanctuary, I couldn't agree with you more! It truly is very sad! Thanks for your reply.

[Guest]

Deep research? Are you serious? Is that what you call deep research, going to an anti Ellen White website, and believing whatever nonsense you read there? LOL. I do believe you're serious. This is just sad.

Like I said before Rich: You've never really studied much for yourself have you? You'll just believe anything you hear or read, as long as it's ANTI-Ellen White, and ANTI-Adventist.

Just continuing to throw out ANTI-EGW websites, just shows that you have no beliefs of your own, and that you've bought into a big pack of lies.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, perhaps you should take a year out of your life and do nothing but study EGW's writings for yourself--and then you can come crying to me and ask for forgiveness! I will pray for you! You still have time to repent!

[John317]

Man, that website is chock full of anti EGW stuff, as well as things written by Rea and Ratzlaff. But it doesn't say who operates the website, and that always makes me suspicious.

I don't recommend doing it but if you were to spend some time researching what those sites put up, you will also find out that they post a lot of half-truths and a good deal of misinformation.

[Guest]

I know what the vision says. You're the one claiming it says something that isn't there. Maybe you should study it for a year, and quit reading lies.

And don't pray for me, pray for yourself. I'm not sure if you know who you're praying to.

[John317]

Dr. Rich, there are many people who've done much more reseach than you have and who have come away with even greater certainty and conviction that she was a true prophet of God.

Tell right here now, please, what it is that you know which would make all of us lose confidence in Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God. What do you know that we don't know or that many other SDAs don't also know?

[Guest]

John, I wouldn't call going to one of those websites research.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, I will agree with you on that, for I have found the same thing. But it does not take away the fact and evidence the site provides (I have the same evidence on some of my disks somewhere but since the site was easy to show, I just gave it ONLY for the vision she had about the shut door.) Please don't think that I agree with everything they have on this site-for that would be a big mistake!

But thanks for the reply John!

[Guest]

If you're just looking for negative stuff about Ellen White, how do you know what's true and what's not?

[John317]

She said she had a vision from God that showed her that only those who were on the road with them (AT THAT TIME) would be saved and that time was over for allowing anyone else to come in (be saved).

What vision is that? Please give the reference.

It's true that the door was shut against those who had once known the truth peached during 1843 and 1844 but who then turned against it and denied that it was from the Holy Spirit. That's the shut-door that Ellen White said God had shown her was true. She never claimed that God showed her that the door of mercy was shut to the whole world. There are some who repeat this half-truth but they never give the full information. They always twist it just enough to make it look possibly true. This issue has been discussed at great length in many places, including in Arthur White's writings about his grandmother. Her visions were actually one of the main reasons that Ellen White came to reject the view which she along with many others had held before of the shut-door.

[John317]

Yes, I agree. But of course I meant researching the original documents and information to see if what they say is true.

[Aliensanctuary]

If Jesus explained to his disciples and others what the Kingdom of YHVH was all about a couple of millennia ago, then, as time moved on, distortions or misunderstandings would likely have arisen due to the "gossip" effect. Most of us have played the game "telephone" or "gossip" where we sit in a circle and the initiator whispers something into the ear of the person sitting next to him. The whispered phrase is passed around until it returns to the initiator, and of course, the many-times repeated phrase likely is completely different from what the original phrase was.

The religions of today may contain serious distortions or misunderstandings, too, because the initiator is no longer around to correct our errors. Those who were around to document some of the initiator's quotes have done a great service, otherwise, our Christian religions would be unrecognizable to Jesus and his disciples because of all of the errors creeping in.

The original "religion", although it wasn't really a religion, is defined in the OT: Love, honor, and obey YHVH, the LORD, love and respect your neighbors, and do no harm to others. The animal sacrifices pointed to something that would occur either in the future on Earth, or, in the Kingdom of YHVH after evil has been destroyed.

One or more of the writers of the NT, whose letters were found and turned into the inerrant word of God, have complicated or otherwise obfuscated our contract with the LORD. One has essentially implied that we don't have to obey the LORD's Code of Ethics because we can't. And anyway, the Law of God is no longer important, because Grace rules. That's a poor defense to use when we stand on trial before the owner of Earth and try to find excuses for our behaviors that harmed others or ourselves or disrespected the LORD.

Grace does indeed occur at the proper time, but in the End, if we ignore our final opportunity to obey the LORD and fail to receive his identifying mark, unmerited favor cannot save us, or anyone else, because we have irrevocably chosen another master.

As far as "Sanctification of the Spirit" goes, that phrase makes no sense unless it is changed to "Sanctification by the Spirit". The Spirit of the LORD has no need to become purified. We become decontaminated from evil, i.e. "sanctified", by studying the scriptures, renouncing our selfishness, and by our obedience to the Word of the LORD and the Word of Jesus Messiah, between which there is no difference. Our willing obedience demonstrates that we love our creator and are safe to be allowed entrance into his kingdom.

[Musicman1228]

Allensanctuary,

Thank you for making such a clear statement about the difference between the OT and the NT. There are those that refuse to see "Sanctification" according to the OT and as reiterated by Jesus Christ and 'grace' as defined by Paul which eliminates the need for sanctification and the Law.

[doug yowell]

The problem with your subjective analysis, Dr. Rich, is that it invalidates the majority of the NT witness including Luke who claimed to be an eyewitness to much of what occurred in the early formation of the church after Christ returned to heaven. In addition, it relegates "Paul's gospel" to the category of heresy and thereby invalidating the Christian experiences and doctrines of millions(billions?) who claimed to become one with Christ thru Paul's ministry and writings. It also scraps the validity of the entire Protestant Reformation which was sparked by Paul's teaching of "the just shall live by faith." It is simply an altered version of Mormonism in which Joey Smith claimed that True Christianity had been lost until his discovery of the golden tablets.And now the Bible can only be properly interpreted thru the Book of Mormon.It was the words of Paul in the book of Romans that led me to surrender myself to the control of Jesus Christ. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly..." It is the internal consistency of the message of the entire Bible(including James,Peter,Hebrews,Acts,ect...)that has convinced me to accept it as truth. The claims of the few "enlightened ones" to the contrary implying that somehow God, in His great love for His church, allowed them to hoodwinked by the very thing that He left behind for them to test the truth by?

[Guest]

Amen Doug