What is meant by ...

[Guest]

Thank you for making such a clear statement about the difference between the OT and the NT. There are those that refuse to see "Sanctification" according to the OT and as reiterated by Jesus Christ and 'grace' as defined by Paul which eliminates the need for sanctification and the Law.

Do you really believe that you can save yourself, without the grace of God? What arrogance. What darkness. That belief stems from the first lie that Satan ever told on this earth. "You shall not surely die." It implies that you have life in and of yourself. And if that were true then you really wouldn't need the grace of God. But the fact is that you can't even draw a breath without the grace of God, much less save yourself.

Also, you do know that when you say something that you know is untrue, that it makes you a liar. I know that you know that Paul does not eliminate the need for sanctification, or the law. If you really don't know that, (but you do) then you need to go back to some very basic Bible studies, and start over.

[oldsailor29]

If? If Jesus told His disciples what they needed to know about His realm? Aliensanctuary, your post is flawed from beginning to end.

Textual copies and translations were never anything like the whispered rumor game you cited as analogy.

And you have not differentiated between our characters and our fallen human natures. With the help of the Holy Spirit which we can have within us, eating His flesh and drinking His blood will change our characters. This is sanctification.

Salvation, on the other hand, is something completely different. We cannot merit salvation through sanctification. We are saved only because of our faith in Jesus and His righteousness.

And I would add that there is no irrevocable choice. There is no reason to have irrevocable choice. God has unlimited time, so there is no time limitation.

[Aliensanctuary]

The original deal between Adam and Eve and the LORD was like a contract. If they did what he wanted them to do, he would take good care of them, so good that they would never die. But it was conditional. If they failed to do what the LORD wanted them to do, they would break their contract with him and lose his protection. More than a thousand years later, the LORD had to destroy the human race, except for a handful who were still willing to obey him.

The original deal between Moses, a nation of ex-slaves, and the LORD was a contract. If the people did what the LORD wanted, he would take good care of them. But it was conditional. If they failed to do what the LORD wanted them to do, they would break their contract and lose his protection. Out of hundreds of thousands of people, only two who left Egypt ever entered the Promised Land.

By the time Jesus arrived, the simple contract had morphed into a complex religion complete with many man-made rules and regulations. Jesus, possessed by the Spirit of the LORD, went about his business trying to make things right by teaching the people to obey the LORD and respect each other's rights and safety and stuff, and, to avoid getting upset about the behavior of others. If anyone listened to his teachings and obeyed them, following the resurrection, he would take good care of them and they would never die. This was a contract. If anyone failed to heed his words, there would be no contract and they would not have his protection on Judgment Day when they faced their life record.

Today, the religions of the world have suppressed the contract between man and the LORD and replaced it with ceremonies and diversions and myths and superstitions. Some have even offered free shredders to get rid of the original contract and replace it with forgeries that make things so much easier. Just let go and let God do it...

If we wish to be part of the Kingdom of Peace, we, too, must enter into a contract with the LORD. We must take his words to heart, and do what he tells us to do. We must forgive and be forgiven for all the horrible things we and others have done. In the End, those who choose to be branded for the LORD will join his everlasting Kingdom. Those who choose the Dark Side will be branded for the Evil One, then go down in flames, never to return because their life records will all be destroyed, too.

Jesus never used terms like grace and justification and sanctification, words that belong only to the confusing jargon of religions. Each one of us has a spirit monitoring us from afar, collecting data from our minds to be presented before the court on Judgment Day. These spirits are our friends, for they can point us in the right direction if we will just be quiet long enough to listen. Then we can trade our evil desires for something far better. If we ask, we will be given, if we seek we will find, if we knock, we will enter into the Kingdom through the Open Door.

No religion will save anyone. It's all about our private contract with the LORD. Religion tends to anesthetize us or make us drunk or blind or rude or intolerant. Do we want to obey the LORD, as some in the past have done, or do we want to set up road blocks and detours, or give out misleading road maps that lead others down the wrong path, the many-tentacled path of man-made religions?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Thank you for making such a clear statement about the difference between the OT and the NT. There are those that refuse to see "Sanctification" according to the OT and as reiterated by Jesus Christ and 'grace' as defined by Paul which eliminates the need for sanctification and the Law.

Do you really believe that you can save yourself, without the grace of God? What arrogance. What darkness. That belief stems from the first lie that Satan ever told on this earth. "You shall not surely die." It implies that you have life in and of yourself. And if that were true then you really wouldn't need the grace of God. But the fact is that you can't even draw a breath without the grace of God, much less save yourself.

Also, you do know that when you say something that you know is untrue, that it makes you a liar. I know that you know that Paul does not eliminate the need for sanctification, or the law. If you really don't know that, (but you do) then you need to go back to some very basic Bible studies, and start over.

Yes, Paul does say that you don't need either the Law or Sanctification, saying that grace through faith covers all your sins thereby making you righteous. You have not yet shown me where Jesus Christ ever taught this theology. You have not done this because you can't.

You also know because of my previous posts that I have never said that anyone can 'save themselves' from the penalty of death that comes from disobedience to the Law of God. I have said, based on the testimony of Jesus Christ and His eyewitnesses, that unless a person begins the process of Sanctification based on the words of Jesus Himself (John 17:17), and then continues on that narrow path until they are either sealed in righteousness while yet alive or are sealed when they are resurrected in the first resurrection (by grace) when Jesus returns in the clouds of glory, they literally have no hope of eternal life. The purpose of the death of Jesus Christ was to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven NOT to impart righteousness to individuals.

Salvation by grace through faith as taught by Paul is a magnificent deception into which you and all who believe it have been seduced. By it's very nature seduction means that the victim does not realize that something has happened that is detrimental to their condition. You are the victim of a deception.

You have been lured into taking the delicious bate and biting the barbed hook of a lie devised by Satan and presented by Paul that goes against what Jesus taught. You make excuses in rising to the bait because it tastes SOOO good, and is SOOO appealing to the senses and is SOOO easy to accomplish. Yet at the end all who refuse to see the deception will be held accountable by that very barbed hook for believing that lie as if it was the truth . This is why the 5 foolish bridesmaids are left out in the darkness with the door to the marriage feast closed in their faces, EVEN THOUGH THE FINALLY DISCOVERED THE TRUTH. By the time they discovered the Truth it was too late. The did not reach the door to the marriage feast in time.

It is not I that has been deceived into believing a lie propagated by a false, self-proclaimed apostle. It is not I that has the barbed hook of deceit in my mouth. Jesus who is the Master fisher-of-men can remove the hook of the devil should you ask Him to. But He cannot do this unless and until you realize that the hook has been set, and you need help removing it. So don't you dare accuse me of being a liar and misquoting Jesus Christ while in the same breath saying that Paul speaks for Jesus Christ. Neither you, nor Paul, nor EGW nor anyone else on this earth will ever convince me to accept the words of any human being (no matter how well spoken) over the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. Quite frankly, I don't know why you would want to do this anyway, so there you have it.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good ? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good ; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth.

The Son of God taught that Justification and Sanctification were the process to salvation and eternal life. He never taught that salvation was a gift through grace.

The covenant (you call the contract)did not have an individual, but corporate application. The corporation/kingdom was to be treated as a whole. If any indivudal in the kingdom was found to be violating the conditions of the covenant they were to be cast out from the kingdom and put to death, this insured the continuing compliance of the kingdom as a whole. Individuals who complied were given the privledges offered to the kingdom even if there were only two (Caleb and Joshua), but these two entered the promised land with the next generation of the kingdom. Caleb and Joshua were of the first generation and were the only ones, of that generation, who kept the conditions of the covenant.

It has always been and will continue until the very end, to be about the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:14 NAS

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

[Guest]

Yes, Paul does say that you don't need either the Law or Sanctification, saying that grace through faith covers all your sins thereby making you righteous. You have not yet shown me where Jesus Christ ever taught this theology. You have not done this because you can't.

Why don't you show where Paul says that sanctification and the law has been done away with, instead of just making the claim. It seems to me that you would want to do this if your claim is true. But you never have.

Jesus and Paul both taught the same thing concerning the law:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

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Jesus and Paul both taught that salvation is a gift, and not something you can earn, which is what you try to teach. But you have nothing to earn it with. All your righteousness is like a filthy rag.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 2:4 .... not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

__________________________________________________

And of course both Jesus and Paul taught that forgiveness of sins is through faith in Jesus, not from anything you are able to do.

Matt 9:2.....and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Joh 8:24 for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe....

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Act 26:18 that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole.

______________________________________________

Psa 84:11 ...the LORD will give grace and glory

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Hab 2:4 ... but the just shall live by his faith.

Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. (ESV)

[wayfinder]

John 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue ;

43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.

45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.

46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

50 "I know that His commandment is eternal life ; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Verse 48 is clear, it is the words that Jesus spoke, His testimony, that will be our judge at the last day. It is not whether we belive in and accept Him, it is whether we have learned and live His testimony. Jesus never used faith in the context of salvation, he used it in the context of believing that He was the Son of God. When we believe that He is the Son of God than God draws us to Him by the Spirit of Truth. The testimony of the Spirit of truth is the truth, it is the same testimony/teaching that the Son of God gave. How are we able to tell whether Paul's testimony is the truth, it must be a perfect match. Yes Paul uses clever words, the Law was not done away with, we just are incapable of obeying it; therefore God made a way to bring us in harmony with His Law through the death of Christ. When we die to the Law through the death of Christ we live by the Spirit of Christ and not by works of the Law.

My question in all this is, why would God give us a Law that was imposible for us to obey and then sacrifice His Son so we would not be condemned for not obeying it? This is the same argument the serpent made to Eve in the garden. God will not put you to death if you disobey Him, He knows you will become like the gods, knowing good and evil. It would seem that the serpent was right, God did not put Adam and Eve to death, but instead put His Son to death. God has always maintained His requirement of obedience to His commands and never once has He ever acknowledged that His requirements are beyond our ability to obey.

John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Guest]

Wayfinder, in your attempt to find some "new" and "different" way to heaven, whereby you earn the forgiveness of sins, you continually overlook the most basic and simple principles that Jesus laid out.

It is not whether we belive in and accept Him, it is whether we have learned and live His testimony. Jesus never used faith in the context of salvation, he used it in the context of believing that He was the Son of God.

[wayfinder]

Richard, I read everyone of you posts, sometimes I wonder if you read/understand mine. Again, you must keep everything in context. In John 8 Jesus is emphesizing His words/teaching, that His words were not only His own but the words of God. Jesus taught that salvation comes by learning the truth, the truth comes from God. Jesus never emphesized His death as the way one was saved, but the way one could enter into knowing the truth. Those from below are those who have been taught by the one from below, the evil one, those from above have been taught from the one from above, God, through the testimony of His Son. The bottomline is this, it is not just about keeping the Law or believing in God and His Son, it is about learning and practicing the truth, when we do this we do the will of God.

John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above ; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins ; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning ?

26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true ; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.

28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard wrote: "That belief stems from the first lie that Satan ever told on this earth. "You shall not surely die."".

Well now Richard, At one time I too thought that what the snake (Satan) said to Eve was a lie, but did Eve die on the day she ate from the true? No, and did not Eve have her eyes opened to what evil was on that day, yes! So tell me Richard, how did Satan commit the first lie eve told on this earth, and since when were you there to hear him do it? I am not sticking up for Satan, I am just showing you that what you believe you read is not actually the truth all the time.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, EGW's own words said "“While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me," proving that she thought her vision was from God.

And John, She said: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected."

So what is it with the word 'impossible' that you don't understand?

Clearly, she said she had a vision from God that showed her that in was impossible for those who fell off the path, just as it was impossible for all of the rest of the world, to be saved, and it was only their little "flock" of Adventist believers who went in to the marriage feast, as the door was shut to all of the others.

Come on you guys, open your eyes! What you wrote, John, reminds me of what a famous preacher once said "I do not lie! However, I have been known to be mistaken at times." Well, yes, she then was badly mistaken, but the mistake then had to be that the god she was listening to certainly was not the God of Creation.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard wrote: "Nobody is released from keeping the law, as I pointed out above. Do you even read my posts? Jesus gives us the power to keep his law, and to do all that we are told to do." So Richard, is it your opinion that when God gave the Ten Commandments that He gave them without the 'power' to keep them? Hmmmm? Personally, I don't believe that God gave the covenant without the ability to keep it. To believe otherwise would be stupid and God was and is not stupid!

[Guest]

Richard, EGW's own words said "“While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me," proving that she thought her vision was from God.

And John, She said: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected."

So what is it with the word 'impossible' that you don't understand?

Clearly, she said she had a vision from God that showed her that in was impossible for those who fell off the path, just as it was impossible for all of the rest of the world, to be saved, and it was only their little "flock" of Adventist believers who went in to the marriage feast, as the door was shut to all of the others.

Come on you guys, open your eyes! What you wrote, John, reminds me of what a famous preacher once said "I do not lie! However, I have been known to be mistaken at times." Well, yes, she then was badly mistaken, but the mistake then had to be that the god she was listening to certainly was not the God of Creation.

Rich, as usual you are a bit off on your facts. If it were any other way I would be shocked. Have a read. And by the way, the vision was from God.

________________________________

Now follows the passage said to be in the original work, but not found in Experience and Views nor in Early Writings:

"It was just as impossible for them [those that gave up their faith in the '44 movement] to get on the path again and go to the city, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another." {1SM 62}

The "Shut Door" Defined

It is claimed that these expressions prove the shut-door doctrine, and that this is the reason of their omission in later editions. But in fact they teach only that which has been and is still held by us as a people, as I shall show.

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ's day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:

"These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7).

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light {1SM 63}

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, I can read just as well as you can. So what is your problem? She made a big mistake, is not a lie--ok? No, there was NO such thing as any 'shutdoor' at the time of 1844 to 1851, and what she said in an attempt to clear it up just made it worse. The "Hour" of the the judgment did not come at that time and it is yet for a future time. The 144,000 have not yet been sealed, nor has the time of trouble started.

Neither has the two witnesses prophesied for five months yet, and Satan has not yet appeared out of the abyss yet.

I have a brain and can figure things out and read EVERYTHING that she has written (and said) and she was a nice sweet lady/woman that read and wrote many good things, but many of the things she said were from visions that SDAs still believe are absolutely false!

To appease me, (if you can), name the woman of Rev. 2:20. Also name the false apostles that called themselves apostles. I want to know and if you can actually produce the corpus (body of evidence) here, then I will gladly change my opinion. But it must fit.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard: "That belief stems from the first lie that Satan ever told on this earth. "You shall not surely die."

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Well now Richard, At one time I too thought that what the snake (Satan) said to Eve was a lie, but did Eve die on the day she ate from the true? No, and did not Eve have her eyes opened to what evil was on that day, yes! So tell me Richard, how did Satan commit the first lie eve told on this earth, and since when were you there to hear him do it? I am not sticking up for Satan, I am just showing you that what you believe you read is not actually the truth all the time.

I find what you say interesting, Dr. Rich. Mormons believe that Satan told the truth and that God was the One who lied. Of course, though, they believe in the immortality of the soul.

The truth is that Adam and Eve would have died if Christ hadn't become their Savior the moment they disobeyed God's command. Another thing that's important here is that the Hebrew original doesn't indicate they would die immediately. Gen. 2: 17 is literally translated, "Dying, thou dost die." It really means, "the day you eat of it, you are doomed to die." See the literal translation by Robert Young as well as Robert Alter's excellent translation with commentary, titled, The Five Books of Moses.

But yes, Satan did lie whereas God (as it turns out) told the truth. She began to die that very day, just as God had told her. Satan flatly contradicted God's statement. Notice that Satan's tactic from the beginning was to get Eve, and then Adam, to doubt God's word, causing them to question whether God really meant what he said. He succeeded in getting Eve to trust her reasoning and the words of Satan instead of the words of her creator. It was at first just a suggestion. That is how Satan still works.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

I must respectfully disagree with you on the meaning of the word 'die' in Gen.2:17. The Greek word is Stong's 4191, Muwth - a primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

This does not mean that they would die of natural causes or of old age because they disobeyed God. God was going to KILL or CAUSE THEM TO BE KILLED, and in this context the punishment for disobedience against God is EXECUTION.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: .... many of the things she said were from visions that SDAs still believe are absolutely false!

Like what, Dr. Rich? (Please don't give links to anti-EG White sites, but give references or summaries, etc., in your own words.)

Quote:

Dr. Rich: To appease me, (if you can), name the woman of Rev. 2:20.

I don't think that simply because you can give a name of someone proves that it's the right name. Actually there are other names that have been suggested, of people who fit the description perfectly. One such was a woman who lived contemporaneously with the apostle John. On the other hand, it may not refer to a single person but to a false teacher in the church at that time. In fact, it may refer to a group within the church that was teaching false doctrines and practices. Both types of activity were going on at that time in the church of Thyatira.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Also name the false apostles that called themselves apostles.

There have been many false apostles. Many lived in the first and second centuries and were used of Satan to introduce false doctrines into the young church. Such were the false teachers that we know of as gnostics and (pseudo)proto-gnostics. Some Jews, particularly those of the diaspora, were influenced by the gnostics as well as by other false teachers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Just wondering if you read much in the commentaries? You might want to check out Revelation of Jesus Christ by Ranko Stefanovic if you don't already have it. You can get it or look at it at the ABC. It has significant comments on Rev. 2: 20ff.

Also, have you ever heard of Henri Alford? He wrote a very good commentary on the entire NT, based on his Greek text. It's called Alford's Greek Testament, An Exegetical and Critical Commentary. Definitely not light, superficial reading.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I want to know and if you can actually produce the corpus (body of evidence) here, then I will gladly change my opinion. But it must fit.

If it fits, you must acquit, right? I mean acquit EGW?!! Naw, I can't believe it. Never happen. :-)

[Musicman1228]

John317,

The problem with your assessment that the woman of Rev.2:20 being a contemporary of John the Revelator is that would have no meaning for anyone living in our time (the very distant future in John's time). Revelation contains information that is written only for those bond-servants of God that will live through the events that are listed in the prophecies of Revelation and NOT for those that have lived before that. How would it be possible for us (in our day) to be able to figure out from the description in Rev. 2 (this "Jezebel") who this woman was if she lived that far in the past. It must be possible for those living at the end of time to figure out who this woman was otherwise what would be the point of God giving the characteristics of this woman to those living today. Also, this woman must have had a significant influence on her generation, enough for God to specify her qualities and message as being against the Kingdom of God. I know of no such woman fitting this description existing in the far distant past that would have had any influence on the Kingdom of Heaven today (that Kingdom being the SDA church).

Looking dispassionately as the description of this woman in described in Rev. 2:19-25 and see if her description does not exactly fit the life and 'ministry' of EGW. EGW did call herself a prophetess by not refuting those claims as made by others. The bond-servants of God are those that are inside the Kingdom of God, and she, being one of the most significant leaders of the Kingdom of Heaven (SDA), is declared by God as having lead His servants astray. The only way this could happen is if she was teaching theology and giving prophecy that lead them to worship a false god (food sacrificed to idols). God gave her time to change her mind and actions, but she did not. As a result God caused her to be continually ill all her life. God will also throw those who adhere to her teachings into tribulation, unless they turn away from her teachings. If they don't turn away God will kill them at the final hour.

You may not want to consider this as a real possibility, because it is always painful to think that you might actually have been deceived. Remember, Jesus warned that this would happen, and even told us through His Disciple Matthew in his gospel chapter 24 verse 3 that it is our responsibility to NOT BE DECEIVED.

[Musicman1228]

By the way, please pray for Rich. His son was taken to the emergency room this evening. I don't have anymore info than that, but it is serious and needs our prayers.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

I must respectfully disagree with you on the meaning of the word 'die' in Gen.2:17.

If you were making your own translation, how would you word it?

And do you know of any English translation that agrees with you?

I'm wondering why you would disagree with the author of Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, as well as with one of the world's most highly regarded Jewish translators of Hebrew literature, Robert Alter.

Quote:

The Greek word is Stong's 4191, Muwth - a primitive root:

Are you sure? I mean are you sure it's a Greek word?

You're right, though, that the Hebrew word, Mooth, is Strong's #4191.

The primary meaning of the word is "to die," and it can also mean "to kill, slay, bring to death, or have one executed." It also sometimes translated as "the dead."

In Gen. 2: 17, Mooth is always translated as "die." Of my 40+ translations of that verse, not a single one translates it in any other way.

Have you checked out the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary on this verse? It's very good and complete. It agrees exactly with what is written by Robert Alter, the Jewish scholar whose primary language is Hebrew and who is a professional translator of that language.

Here is his commentary on Gen. 2: 17:

First, a literal translation of the verse: "But from the tree of knowledge, good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you are doomed to die."

"16-17. surely eat... doomed to die. The form of the Hebrew in both instances is what grammarians call the infinitive absolute: the infinitive immediately followed by a conjugated form of the same verb. The general effect of this repetition is to add emphasis to the verb, but because in the case of the verb 'to die' it is the pattern regularly used in the Bible for the issuing of death sentences, 'doomed to die' is an appropriate equivalent" (The Five Books of Moses, p 21).

Quote:

to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

I see you got your information from the NASB Key Word Study Bible. That Bible is also one of my favorites!

Notice that the OT Dictionary in that edition says that death was not intended to be a natural aspect of being a human being but that it resulted from rebellion againt God. That's all true, of course.

[John317]

Hey, MM, I'm really sorry to hear about that. Yes, I will pray for him. Thanks for telling us. Keep us up to date if you can.

[Guest]

I know of no such woman fitting this description existing in the far distant past that would have had any influence on the Kingdom of Heaven today (that Kingdom being the SDA church).

If you knew anything about the principle of letting the Bible interpret itself, instead of applying your own ideas and speculating. It wouldn't take you long to figure out that when the word woman is used in Bible prophecy, it signifies a church. Whether a pure church, or a corrupt church. This can easily be shown by comparing scripture with scripture.

But I understand your need to be original.

[Aliensanctuary]

Life is so fragile and transitory. We should always be aware that the present moment may be our last except for the grace of God.

Poor EGW and friends. They tried so hard to make Jesus come before 1900. To do so they had to create several erroneous time predictions, including 1844, and take advantage of the "signs" of a dark and cloudy day, an annual meteor shower, an earthquake in Spain, and more, but they just couldn't make him appear in the time frame they thought he should.

The problem was, the real signs of the LORD's coming are for the Last Days, a tumultuous time filled with widespread war and destruction and worldwide natural disasters that will touch everyone's lives. When the great cities of the world all lie in ruins, that might be a good indication to us that the Last Days are upon us. There have been alarmists for many, many, years because some of the biggest talkers did not study the scriptures with open minds, especially the OT prophecies. Instead, they struggled to make scripture agree with their misguided beliefs of the always imminent 2nd Coming.

Sister EGW and friends jumped the gun and arrived at wrong conclusions because they did not study the OT prophecies carefully enough or understand them. Without careful, thoughtful, open-minded study of the OT, we, too, will make mistakes and confuse the time frames and jump to the wrong conclusions.

BTW, has anyone considered that woman=city? You might try searching for "woman" or “daughter” to see the connection. You might also consider that the woman "Babylon" is a city from space that meets its fiery destruction in the Last Days. The pure Woman clothed with the sun and standing on the moon would then be the City of God, the Bride, which has come to assist the Kingdom of God on Earth.

[Guest]

If you're waiting for for those conditions before you think the end is near, then you just might be caught off guard.

When did Ellen White jump the gun? I don't think they tried to make anything happen. When William Miller studied out the prophecies, and discovered that something was going to take place in 1844, he was right. He had the event wrong, and God knew he had the event wrong. But for whatever reason He had, He allowed then to go through the great disappointment anyway.

I take it (from your post) that you don't put much stock in Ellen White.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

Yes, I am sure of the word. I use MacSword (a derivative of E-Sword) which is an online Bible research resource. The version I use to for Greek and Hebrew derivations is the KJV.

One of the traditional understandings about the Creation is that God created man as immortal beings, but this is an erroneous assumption. We know that God put the Tree of Life in the Garden for the benefit of Adam and Eve; if they obeyed God they would be able to eat of the tree and live forever. This means that without the tree they would die (which is different than being killed). By extrapolation we can see that those outside of the Garden (the inhabitants of Nun for example-where Cain went after He was sent out from the presence of the Lord) did not have access to the Tree at any time. Therefore, when God created mankind (and yes, that is 'mankind as a species') He created them mortal, just like all the other creatures He created during the six day creation.

Richard,

You and others supply the definition of 'woman' as being the church, NOT Scripture. Eve was a woman, but she was not the church. Just because the word 'woman' is used in prophecy does not automatically mean that it's meaning is something other than literal. Hence, I am not the one supplying my own meaning, I am merely looking at the context and using the word in it's literal sense. The passage in Rev.2:19-25 speaks of the woman Jezebel who was a literal woman that taught Israel to worship Baal, a god other than the God of Israel, a false god. That literal Jezebel does not represent a 'church', so why would the woman that is being compared to her represent something other than a literal woman. Your conclusion in this regard is not logical.

The God of Heaven did not 'call' Ellen Gould Harmon' to be a prophet, anymore than He called Saul to be an apostle. It does say that God gave 'this woman' an opportunity to repent of her deeds (that is, leading the servants of God to worship a false god), but she refused to repent. Either God knows the end from the beginning or He doesn't. If He doesn't He is not God. By her own words Ellen White says that God tried to call two others to be a prophet before He called her. Why would God do this if He knew that both of those two men would refuse the commission? Did God say, "Here, lets try this one, and if he doesn't work out we'll try this other one. And if he doesn't want to do it well go with our third string prophet Ellen G. White. Who knows maybe she'll do it". This He would not do because God does not call anyone that He KNOWS will not do His will. Therefore, all other excuses laid aside I cannot see how EGW could have been called by God to be His prophet for the end of time; particularly in light of the fact that she did not live in the end of time.