Do you go out to eat...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Yes Sue. I think that listening to sermons in the car is one of the best places. It allows for both listening and discussions with the family. What other situation allows for this as well as driving in a car.

I used to work for a Catholic Hospital. They would pay me to listen to SDA sermons. Ha Ha (I would listen to the sermons while traveling in the car for the Hospital.)

Boy ... if the Jesuits only knew.

Somehow this thread has gotten into whether or not it's okay to drive on the Sabbath. I don't listen to sermons in the car, and that's not what I had asked about in this thread.

I have come to the conclusion that there ARE times when it is okay to go out to a restaurant on the Sabbath.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm vegan, but I'd rather go to Liz's church than your grandmother's, Sivart. About half of the Adventists I know personally eat meat at home, so I can't see it as being a real issue in the churches I'm acquainted with, unless whoever is in charge that day happened to be someone like Sivart's grandmother.

However, years ago, in the closest church to us, the one our children grew up in, a then very new attendee who eventually became a close friend, brought crackers that had lard in them. The ladies in the kitchen threw them out. When she told me about it a few years later, she said if they had just given them back to her and explained why they couldn't serve them, she would not have been so upset by it. She had also brought something else, which they did put on the table.

I used to laugh at some vegetarians who would go to Taco Bell and order the bean burrito or some other "vegetarian" menu item, not realizing that the beans had lard in them.

[Dr. Shane]

Taco Bell doesn't use lard. Lard has a very distinct taste to it. Anyone that eats refried beans on a regular basis can taste lard in the beans on the first bite. Here in South Texas many Mexican restaurants are proud of using lard in their menu items. The lard makes the food "authentic" Mexican food. They will gladly admit to using lard if asked.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Oh yes, they DID use lard. It came pre-mixed with the refried beans, and you couldn't taste the difference.

My folks used to get Campbells Pork and Beans which had lard in it, before my Dad became an SDA, and we couldn't tell the difference when we switched to vegetarian beans. So I'm not talking as if I don't know the difference between the two.

[Dr. Shane]

As I read this passage I see the children of Israel were buying "fish and all manner of wares" from the "men of Tyre". Applying that to my life today, I believe it is wrong for me (an Adventist) to be buying food and other such things from non-Adventists on the Sabbath day. The essentials are different. I buy electricity, water, sewer service, natural gas and sometimes gasoline on the Sabbath. For me, my goal is not to purchase anything on Sabbath if I could have somehow avoided the purchase by using the Preparation Day for preparation.

Nehemiah 13:

15. In those days saw I in Judah some men treading wine-presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses therewith; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.

16. There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, who brought in fish, and all manner of wares, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.

17. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day?

18. Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.

19. And it came to pass that, when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut, and commanded that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I over the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

20. So the merchants and sellers of all kind of wares lodged without Jerusalem once or twice.

21. Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath.

[TWNolan]

Jesus regularly broke the sabbath laws AND instructed others to do so. Ever wonder why He did that?

Because He did not like all the man-made trappings that was put on it

[Dr. Shane]

Oh yes, they DID use lard. It came pre-mixed with the refried beans, and you couldn't taste the difference.

I don't know what Taco Bell use to do decades ago. I know they don't use lard today nor have they in recent history. I can't speak for others but I can taste lard in refried beans. In South Texas, I taste lard in refried beans quite often (never at Taco Bell). It has a very distinct flavor that some people like - that is why it is used in "authentic" Mexican food.

[TWNolan]

I used to work for a Catholic Hospital. They would pay me to listen to SDA sermons. Ha Ha (I would listen to the sermons while traveling in the car for the Hospital.)

That is just messed up!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Oh yes, they DID use lard. It came pre-mixed with the refried beans, and you couldn't taste the difference.

I don't know what Taco Bell use to do decades ago. I know they don't use lard today nor have they in recent history. I can't speak for others but I can taste lard in refried beans. In South Texas, I taste lard in refried beans quite often (never at Taco Bell). It has a very distinct flavor that some people like - that is why it is used in "authentic" Mexican food.

You are welcome to disagree with me. But I know I'm right. :smile:

[whbae]

Keeping the Sabbath is not just simply not work or go to chuch. It is a 7day prep or simply saying one has to prepare for the Sabbath way ahead. When one prapares for a long trip, certainly one would look into his supply of gas in one's car before his departure and start out with a full tank of gas. The same principal applies for Sabbath keeping. This does mean to say I am not guilty of buying gas on the Sabbath. I am sorry to say I have done it, I should plan things ahead.

Won

[Dr. Shane]

I am not one that believes it is sinful to travel on the Sabbath. However when traveling on the Sabbath I believe I still need to honor the day as a day of rest with the Lord. When taking a trip back to the Mid-West, I need to travel on the Sabbath if I am going to have any quantity of time to spend with my family there. However, while in the car (or on the plane) we listen to Christian music or watch Christian movies and do not indulge in secular activities.

[Woody]

When did the tradition of not buying on the Sabbath come into play?

[Dr. Shane]

When did the tradition of not buying on the Sabbath come into play?

I would venture to guess it was before Nehemiah since he wrote, "Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath." when he discovered the Israelites buying and selling on the Sabbath.

[phkrause]

You are welcome to disagree with me. But I know I'm right. :smile:

Pam I know that years ago this was true. And I have asked them if they still use lard and they have said no. Now having stated this I have not been to a taco bell in many years, so you could very be correct, they might have gone back to this. I've also heard that McDonalds used to fry there french fries in lard also, but had stopped but not sure if they are back to using lard.

pk

[Tom Wetmore]

It is interesting that the prophet's focus of attention was more directed at the non-Jewish, non Sabbath keeping merchants that were selling their stuff than at the Jews buying it. To remedy the problem of "working" within the gates, he sent them out and didn't want them hanging around just outside the gates either. Why didn't the prophet address the solution to the Jews that were buying the fish on the Sabbath? Was it perhaps because the actual violation was not the buying, but the selling? Notice the introductory verse 15. Those Jews engaged in their commercial occupations on the Sabbath were "testified against" by Nehemiah. This is very consistent with what I already pointed out about the 4th Commandment.

What is the violation? Is it handling money? No, or we wouldn't collect an offering on Sabbath? And as some have already pointed out, what about the person that must take the bus or a taxi to church? How do they pay for that? And in a real sense, we buy services on Sabbath every time we turn on the light. That is why Orthodox Jews leave the lights off on Sabbath.

And as just pointed out, the silly extent of this wrong direction results in walking up 3 flights of stairs to avoid pressing an elevator button.

[Woody]

[Aliensanctuary]

We could define legalism as making man-made rules and regulations more important than people. We all create internal lists of rules when we translate generalities into specifics, but what violates our own conscience may not even touch someone else's.

In the days of Moses the people of Israel were told to not gather manna on the 7th day. The manna that they gathered on Friday to save for Sabbath did not spoil, but the manna gathered on Sabbath became maggotized. The principle behind preparing food before the Day of Rest must have been important if the LORD expected all of Israel to practice it. We might conclude from this that those who serve the LORD in the Last Days, the Millennium, or the New Earth, will also spend little or no time preparing meals during the hours of the Sabbath.

I don't believe the LORD expected the people of ancient Israel to buy food from one other or from non-Israeli sources on Sabbaths. Whatever they prepared ahead of time was permissible. Whatever they prepared on Sabbath became inedible. Of course, the culture back then was so much different than today's. They traveled on foot, mainly, and didn't need to stop for fuel or food or clothing at convenience stores or shopping malls

If observing the Sabbath was a matter of life and death in the distant past, it may be that way again in the future. If we disrespect the Sabbath and violate its principles today, we may be disrespecting the LORD, too.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, clarified this confusion...

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

"It is lawful (permissible, the right thing to do) to do good on the Sabbath."

[Dr. Shane]

Notice the introductory verse 15. Those Jews engaged in their commercial occupations on the Sabbath were "testified against" by Nehemiah.

Indeed verse 16 must be read in the context of the previous verse. The sins of verse 15 are lumped together with the activity (sin) of verse 16. This is even more clear in the tenth chapter.

Nehemiah 10:

29. They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

30. And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons:

31. And if the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy it of them on the sabbath

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

"It is lawful (permissible, the right thing to do) to do good on the Sabbath."

Now it comes down to the defiinition of "good".... What is "good"?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

You are welcome to disagree with me. But I know I'm right. :smile:

Pam I know that years ago this was true. And I have asked them if they still use lard and they have said no. Now having stated this I have not been to a taco bell in many years, so you could very be correct, they might have gone back to this. I've also heard that McDonalds used to fry there french fries in lard also, but had stopped but not sure if they are back to using lard.

pk

That's what I said: They DID use lard. I didn't say they use it now.

[Dr. Shane]

And as some have already pointed out, what about the person that must take the bus or a taxi to church? How do they pay for that? And in a real sense, we buy services on Sabbath every time we turn on the light. That is why Orthodox Jews leave the lights off on Sabbath.

The Jews are legalists, hardly an example to be followed. Some people do have to work on the Sabbath. Policemen, firemen, soldiers, sailors, utility workers, medical workers and those in public transportation need to work. And it follows to reason that Sabbath keepers will need to use some of these services.

However we are not talking about these vital services that must work on the Sabbath. We are talking about going to restaurants on Sabbath. That is something that is not required. Even when traveling one can pack a lunch to eat - my family does. Yes, hospital kitchen workers need to work to feed the sick. McDonald's workers do not need to be working and Sabbath keepers do not need to be eating there.

[Aliensanctuary]

Did Jesus and his disciples buy food on Sabbath while traveling?

If they were traveling to another place of ministry on the Sabbath, they would have depended upon the hospitality of their countrymen to provide food, either in someone's home or in the fields if a crop was ripe. Thirteen people dropping in for Sabbath lunch might be a little much. Perhaps there were potluck lunches at the synagogues they visited, or perhaps they dined on multiplicated food at the hands of Jesus.

Israel was such a small country that it took only a few days’ journey by foot to travel from Jerusalem to the borders.

To stay at home, sitting in a cold, dark house, eating cold food, as some of the people of Israel did, doesn't have much appeal. If they did have to go somewhere, they couldn't carry more than three figs without breaking their Sabbath laws. Don't even think about carrying a sleeping bag and a backpack on the Sabbath. If you did, the Sabbath Police would arrest you. Now you have a criminal record for profaning the Sabbath.

Someday the LORD will teach us what to do on the real Sabbath that will respect and honor him. I'm sure we will all appreciate having a Day of Rest to punctuate our work week and mark the passage of time, if time is even important, then.

[Neil D]

Did Jesus and his disciples buy food on Sabbath while traveling?

[TWNolan]

In the days of Moses the people of Israel were told to not gather manna on the 7th day. The manna that they gathered on Friday to save for Sabbath did not spoil, but the manna gathered on Sabbath became maggotized.

actually, there was NO manna available on Sabbath. Anything that was saved AFTER the allotted time went bad, 1 day for "Sunday - Thursday" and 2 days on "Friday"