The "Everlasting" Three Angel's Message

[wayfinder]

I would second that, although both groups may be on their knees but before different teachers. Lucifer (Light bringer) did not have this name because he was ignorant, he is the most "brillant" being ever created. Lucifer uses all his knowledge to deceive the deceivable. The only way to recognize his counterfit gospel is to know the testimony of Jesus.

The three angels messages are for the last generation. These messages are not eternal, but specificly applied for the events of the Revelation of Jesus. The hour of judgment is the time of the seven trumpets. Babylon, is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth (first beast of Revelation 13). The mark of the beast is given by the second beast of Revelation 13, the beast from the abyss/earth. None of these has happened yet, but are in the near future. The three angels messages are given by the 144,000 and the holy people (kingdom of God/SDAs/five wise bridesmaids).

[Guest]

Congratulation, Richard, you have finally asked a good question in an appropriate, non-threatening manner. I like this Richard better than the other one.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

I have never said that having a relationship with God was not important. What I said is that just 'saying' that you have a relationship with God is not enough to prove the relationship. You know this is true.

You quote John 17:3 but completely ignore John 3:5.

The several times you say that after I quote a verse that I need to quote another verse to back it up, as if the verse I quoted was not enough to prove truth in itself. Example; I pointed out that Daniel 2:34,35,44,45 speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven and what will occur when that final Kingdom appears on earth. Is this not enough for you? This is a Kingdom cut out of the Mountain of the Lord WITHOUT HANDS, meaning that this Kingdom came out of the world based on the study of Scripture not as a result of direct intervention on the part of God. The descriptions in these verses perfectly describe what happened in the Advent movement in 1844. Yet you apparently disagree only because I say it.

You say (on your own) that I cannot be an SDA, yet I am the one that is showing from Scripture that the SDA church and Advent Movement is the only corporate body of believers that fits the descriptions in Scripture. Who is it that has said that someone must agree with every aspect of a religion in order to qualify to be a member of that religion? This was NOT the way it was in William Miller's day, and it is not that way today. And what belief and by whom is the standard that qualifies someone to be an SDA? Is it your beliefs that all must acquire to prove that they are and SDA? Is it the 28 Fundamentals that are the 'test of faith' in order to be a 'good' SDA? How is a person qualified to become an SDA or any other religion? Who has the authority to say?

You quote Matt: 19:25-26 expecting that this verse will PROVE that the theology of Jesus Christ is wrong (that to which I subscribe). I have repeatedly said that it is the power of the Holy Spirit that LEADS us into truth, which is a perfect description of the process of Sanctification.

"But there are plenty of other places where Jesus does say that this is exactly how one is saved. Grace and faith." You make this statement and then quote verses THAT SHOW NO SUCH THING. It is only in your own mind that they say what you say they do.

Matt. 24:14 is where Jesus Christ speaks of the gospel of the Kingdom. It is THIS Kingdom that the world must come to for truth.

You say, "You seem to be reading something that no one else can see." This is a supremely arrogant thing to say and without merit. How do you know this? Do you personally know what everyone on this forum or the thousands of people who listen to our internet radio broadcasts each week believe? Maybe it is I and my friends that have it right and you that have it wrong, but in your arrogance you can't even imagine that? "NO ONE"? I have never made any claim that anyone should believe anything I say just because I say it. Yet you make the statement that no one can see the same things that I can, and this just because you say it. I detect a double standard here.

I would be wonderful if you took what I and my friends show from Scripture and make the attempt to understand it. And I, as does wayfinder, carefully read ever word you and others on this forum write. You take the time to write it, it is incumbent on me to give you the courtesy of an honest appraisal. I also have the impression that you have already made up your mind about me and what I say, such that nothing I propose will ever have a chance to gain a foothold in your heart. I am really OK with this because it is just possible that other's on this forum that don't regularly post ARE making the effort to look at my understandings with an open mind and heart.

[Guest]

You quote John 17:3 but completely ignore John 3:5.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, with all due respect, I repectfully disagree with you regarding who, what, why, and where in the future Adventists are. It is only YOUR opinion John, based upon what I call a faulty foundation, that you believe the Adventists 'job' is to proclaim the 'three angels message'. My reply on this is above and when people question me about it, do NOT I have a right to reply and answer their questions?

John, and anyone else that has an opinion like John, please do some research into what was going on after the great disappointment. They were looking for excuses and the Adventists were greatly fractured at that time.

I am truly sorry that you can't 'see' clearly, but when you do (if you do) I am sure you will then understand.

Lets do this: Can you agree with me that we, as Adventists, are, or would be, in serious trouble IF the woman in Rev. 2:20 IS EGW?

Can you also agree with me that Christians, including Adventists, are, or would be, in serious trouble IF Paul was a false apostle as found in Rev. 2:2?

IF I am wrong, then I need for you to show me from the bible where the Adventists have the job to bring the three angels message to the world AND show me by evidence who the false apostles are and who this woman is. Let's not play around with this very serious issue!

[Guest]

IF I am wrong, then I need for you to show me from the bible where the Adventists have the job to bring the three angels message to the world AND show me by evidence who the false apostles are and who this woman is.

Why? What have you shown from the Bible? I guess you could say you have enlightened us as to what your speculations are concerning Rev 2:20, and 2:2, but that's all you've done. You don't actually have any scripture that will back up any of your outlandish claims. But you expect others to use scripture to prove you wrong. LOL Why? It's not even neccessary. You're free to speculate all you want, but that's all it is. When you start thinking your speculations rise to the level of someone needing to use scripture to prove them wrong, I think that's funny.

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "Your description of adventists is totally different from the Bible's description of SDAs. Where in the Bible does it say that the true church will have a false prophet? "

Rev.2:19-25.

Please read my post on the Three Angels Messages string. I think you will find it interesting, if not helpful.

[Guest]

There is nothing in those texts that points to the SDA church. Only your wishful thinking. As usual you're only speculating, in order to make scripture fit your paradigm. It should be the other way around. Instead of forcing the text to fit your paradigm, you should adjust your paradigm to fit the Bible.

[John317]

John317, with all due respect, I repectfully disagree with you regarding who, what, why, and where in the future Adventists are. It is only YOUR opinion John, based upon what I call a faulty foundation, that you believe the Adventists 'job' is to proclaim the 'three angels message'.

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DR RICH: John, and anyone else that has an opinion like John, please do some research into what was going on after the great disappointment.

I've done years of research and reading already. My father wrote a book on 1844, and I helped him while I was studying church history in the 1970s. I love studying that period of church history. What specifically are you referring to as "what was going on"?

Quote:

DR. RICH: They were looking for excuses and the Adventists were greatly fractured at that time.

Some say the same thing about the early Christians after their "messiah" died and made them terribly disappointed. Would you say they were looking for excuses?

The truth is that the early Adventists you speak of were seeking to understand what had happened. Most Millerite completely fell away and gave up, convinced as they were that it had all been one big, bad, unexplainable mistake. Only a handful continued to believe that the Millerite Movement had been led of God. They knew that God had been leading them. Ellen Harmon, James White, and Joseph Bates, and Hiram Edson were among that group, who continued to seek God and ask Him for light on what had happened.

And yes, they were certainly fractured, all right-- that is, if you're referring to the former Millerates. The early SDAs were also fractured in the sense that they were united around the Second Coming, 1844, the state of the dead, and the Sabbath. They pretty much agreed on those issues but they disagreed on much else. Yet they didn't argue about those issues that they disagreed about. They continued instead to study, pray and seek God's help in understanding the Bible and the meaning of their experience in 1843, 1844.

To say they were looking for excuses would indicate they were being dishonest and insincere, and I don't find that this is true of them.

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DR. RICH: I am truly sorry that you can't 'see' clearly, but when you do (if you do) I am sure you will then understand.

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DR. RICH: Lets do this: Can you agree with me that we, as Adventists, are, or would be, in serious trouble IF the woman in Rev. 2:20 IS EGW?

That is a VERY BIG "IF." From my viewpoint, you might as well say we'd be in trouble if I myself was the woman in Rev. 2: 20. I'd say there's just as much chance of that being the case as that Ellen White was Jezebel. I think your idea is made for people who have little or no knowledge of the history of the church or have no personal experience with the people who made this church what it is.

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Can you also agree with me that Christians, including Adventists, are, or would be, in serious trouble IF Paul was a false apostle as found in Rev. 2:2?

Another huge "if," that is as likely to be true as that Jesus of Nazareth never existed-- a theory that some people still push. Hope springs eternal, as they say.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: IF I am wrong, then I need for you to show me from the bible where the Adventists have the job to bring the three angels message to the world AND show me by evidence who the false apostles are and who this woman is. Let's not play around with this very serious issue!

What would you consider convincing evidence? What sort of evidence are you seeking?

First show me persuasive Bible evidence that it's essential for us to be able to name those false apostles and identify a particular person as that woman. I haven't seen it.

[skyblue888]

I think your idea is made for people who have little or no knowledge of the history of the church or have no personal experience with the people who made this church what it is.

john317

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John, I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

We agree on this Robert, except I realize the law has not been done away with, which is what you believe.

No, but in order to save you from the law your life came to and end in the life of Christ as the Son of God and the Son of man. Hence, you were delivered from the law. As far as the law is concerned you are dead....Therefore it requires nothing of you.

Now, if you don't buy that, then go back under law.....I can guarantee you that you want make it to heaven under law.

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What the law requires of every man is obedience but not ours but Christ's obedience. Through His merits we have Him and His righteousness (obedience) and the law is satisfied. His righteousness in us will be made manifest in obedience to all the commandmets of God. This is what the law requires of every man. The righteousness of Christ both imputed and imparted to the believer. This is the righteousness which is of God by faith.

sky

[Musicman1228]

The Lamp Stand in Rev. 1 is an image of the Lamp Stand in the Holy Place in the earthly Temple that illuminated the space in front of the Table of the Presence (Shobread) and also the Table itself. Each lamp stand in Revelation has seven lights on it, for a total of 49 lights. The Lamp Stand represents the means by which God delivers Truth to the world-i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven. Each of the Lampstands is represented by one of the Seven churches in Rev.2 and 3. These churches are characteristics of the Kingdom of Heaven that is on earth at the time of the end. These are NOT historic churches, because Revelation and the events therein are not in the past, they are in the future. None of the events that are listed in Revelation have occurred as yet.

The Angel or Messenger that is described in each church is a human being. Why? Because the texts say "TO the messenger OF (within) the church of [ ] write . . ." If this was a heavenly being they would already know what that message was. The information is given TO the messenger to take TO the church as represented by the lamb stand. Note that the message does not go directly to the church, it must come through a messenger set aside by God to deliver it. The messenger is a human being that will actually understand the meaning of the message in the context of the end of time. To me this shows that the historic SDA view of end time prophecy cannot be valid.

John317 said, "First show me persuasive Bible evidence that it's essential for us to be able to name those false apostles and identify a particular person as that woman. I haven't seen it."

I can appreciate your sentiment. But consider this; Jesus Christ felt that the information about a false prophetess and false apostles was important enough to include in the information given to the end time Kingdom of Heaven, therefore we discount this as unimportant at our peril. Should we not make the attempt to discover who these people are (by name) so that we can avoid being deceived by them? "Satan is not called the Great Deceiver because he is not good at it." Just think of the level of deception Satan would be capable of if information from this female prophet and false apostle was believed to be true by sincere believers. That is the hallmark of a substantive deception. The damage done would be staggering, and orders of magnitude above anything previously thought possible. Think of the vast numbers of people that would be lost because they accepted the messages of these false apostles and prophets thinking that they could not possibly be a deception. Think of the vast numbers of people that could have been saved had this deception been revealed at the proper time.

Is this not worth close scrutiny and examination?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

According to Jesus Christ the everlasting gospel is the 'gospel of the Kingdom', not justification by faith.

The gospel received by faith is justification by faith, my man....

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The gospel of the kingdom. "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32.

In this world it is the kingdom of grace. "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11.

The word of the kingdom is: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." 2 Thess.3:18. It is so unto all and upon all them that believe, that is, that trust wholly in the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour for their acceptance with God. Rom.3:25. It is "the gospel of the grace of God" or "the word of His grace." Acts 20:24,32.

This is the kingdom of God within us, for Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21. And "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17.

Then in the hereafter the redeemed shall be given the kingdom of glory.

"And the greatness of the Kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27.

sky

[Guest]

Those messages were not written for the end time church only, as you say. But were given to the churches that existed back then. This can be proven not only from the Bible, but from history. So it is rather silly to continue to claim (as you do) that they were only given for the end time church. Although they do have prophetic significance. But the church you claim to be a part of is Laodicea.

[Guest]

sky you should understand that musicman doesn't believe anything that Luke says, or anything that Paul says. Even though they are both perfectly legitimate.

[phkrause]

Those messages were not written for the end time church only, as you say. But were given to the churches that existed back then. This can be proven not only from the Bible, but from history. So it is rather silly to continue to claim (as you do) that they were only given for the end time church. Although they do have prophetic significance. But the church you claim to be a part of is Laodicea.

Very true Richard, not only that, but I've always been under the impression that John, Paul and the other disciples all thought that they were in the end times and that Jesus would return soon. So in one way it was written for them in the end time, but here we are still here. Those writtings are for the end time, whenever that will be. Could be in the next few years or could still be many, many years away.

pk

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

You can't have the three angels message be given before the sealing of the 144,000, can you?

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The only ones who will be numbered among the 144,000 must first have received the first seal which is a daily settling into the truth both intellectually and spiritually during the early and latter rain of the grace of the Holy Spirit; then they must have the victory over the beast and its image which means that they must pass the great final test successfully under the scrutiny of the judgment of the living which takes place immediately following the great final test prior to the close of probation. Those who pass the great final test (death decree) with success will make up the 144,000 who will enter into the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

sky

But i do agree that the three angel's messages will soon be proclaimed (repeated) in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit and the fourth angel will give power to the third angel before the close of probation.

[Musicman1228]

The problem as I see it, Richard, is that the idea that the prophecies of Revelation are for the church throughout time would necessitate people from those churches being alive at the time those prophecies are being fulfilled. The people of the literal churches listed in Rev. 2 and 3 were never going to be, and are not now, alive to experience the effects of the fulfillment of those prophecies. No one that is now dead will go through the Great Tribulation. So to say that the prophecies of Revelation will somehow affect those people is untenable.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,  who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. Rev.1:1-3.

My understanding of the prophecies in Revelation base solely on the wording of the above text indicates that they are ONLY for the Bondservants of Jesus Christ to understand, and no one else. The chain of evidence is from the Father to Jesus Christ, to the Angel, to John, to the Bondservants. Those that are blessed by the one who reads the words of the prophecies understand the meaning of those prophecies. These KEEP what is written; if you are dead you keep nothing. It is only for those living at the appointed time of the end that these prophecies will apply.

To you this seems unreasonable, because you have been taught the historic view of prophecy as the ONLY viable option for these fulfillments. But you could be wrong. If you are then when things don't turn out the way of your understanding the 'Great Disappointment' of 1844 will look like a romp in the park compared to what you will go through when you discover too late your error. This is why Jesus said there would be much 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' from within the Kingdom when this happens. This is the way of the five foolish bridesmaids (Matt.25:1-13). Have you ever asked yourself the question "What makes the five wise bridesmaids wise?" and "Why did not the five foolish bridesmaids go into the wedding feast with the others, if grace operates the way you believe it does?" After all, the grace of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all, isn't it?

[Dr. Rich]

MM, you wrote: "After all, the grace of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all, isn't it?" Did you get this from 2Cor.12:7-9? If I read this in context, didn't Paul say that his god gave him a demon (messenger from Satan) and when Paul demanded that his god remove the demon, that he heard the voice of this god say, "...my grace is sufficient for you".

It therefore appears that the religion of Christianity then, was built upon this statement--thereby doing away with the law and the words of Jesus. In my math, it just does not add up!

[Guest]

Rich, no offence but with your math two and two makes five.

[Guest]

My understanding of the prophecies in Revelation base solely on the wording of the above text indicates that they are ONLY for the Bondservants of Jesus Christ to understand, and no one else.

Then you are adding your own words and thoughts to the text. Because there is nothing in the text that indicates that they are ONLY for anybody. The words "only" and "bondservant" are your words. They are not found in the text. This is the main problem I have with your method of study. You are forever pointing to a text as proof of something that it does not say. You read in what is not there.

The text says blessed is he that reads or hears. There is no secret code there that says "this is only for the bondservants". And those messages most definately did apply to the churches they were sent to, at the time they were sent. God did not send them something they could not use. The main message in all of them seems to be about overcoming.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

There is nothing cryptic about that. And it was just as true then, as it is now. Do I believe they have a special meaning for us living in the last days? Yes I do. Especially the last one, written to the Laodiceans. That is the condition my church is in today. They are luke warm and don't even realize it. But the solution to the problem is given, so that we can be overcomers. And the solution is the same to us, as it was to them.

Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white clothing, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

And since you have no proof whatsoever as to who the false apostles are. Only speculation. It is most probably talking about the false apostles that lived back in that day. Because we know for sure that there were some. Just like there are today. (not calling any names)

Now as far as you adding things to the text that are not there. There is another text that strongly advises against doing that. Which is a good reason for you to stop doing it.

Rev 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: I think your idea is made for people who have little or no knowledge of the history of the church or have no personal experience with the people who made this church what it is.

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skyblue888: I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.

I don't have a fundamental disagreement with you here, sky, but I'm wondering what period of our history you speak of.

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us. We love the world more than we love the Lord and His kingdom. We say we want Him to come and take us home but we are really fence-sitters. We know we are but we can't seem to do anything to change it. I think what keeps us from changing is that we are too attached to our comforts and our possessions. I guess what it comes down to is that Jesus is right in what He says in His love-letter to the church of Loadicea.

As a church I believe that we're like the children of Israel on the edge of the Promised Land, refusing to go in. We're in rebellion against God and against His prophet, just as they were back then.

I don't know that much about you personally-- except that I know from your previous posts that we're usually in agreement on most things-- so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

Also, what specifically do you have in mind when you say the church is no longer what it used to be? I agree with you but am interested in exactly what you are thinking of.

[John317]

AMEN AND AMEN!

:-)

[Guest]

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: MM, you wrote: "After all, the grace of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all, isn't it?" Did you get this from 2Cor.12:7-9? If I read this in context, didn't Paul say that his god gave him a demon (messenger from Satan) and when Paul demanded that his god remove the demon, that he heard the voice of this god say, "...my grace is sufficient for you".

When Jesus told Paul that His grace was sufficient, He meant that the trial would continue but that God's grace was sufficient to help him deal with it. God does not always remove the problems but He goes through the trials and temptations WITH us.

Paul's reference is probably to the same problems that the great apostle wrote about in Gal. 4: 13, 14.

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Dr. Rich: It therefore appears that the religion of Christianity then, was built upon this statement--thereby doing away with the law and the words of Jesus.

Christianity is certainly built upon God's unmerited favor toward sinners, but God's grace does not do away with His law and the words of Jesus. Actually, as the Apostle said, faith in Christ establishes the law of God. Faith puts the law of God in the right perspective, that is, the gospel establishes the law on a firm foundation by showing the law's true relationship to the life and teachings of Christ.

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Dr. Rich: In my math, it just does not add up!

In my view, Dr. Rich, that is because you are leaving out important parts of the equation.