The "Everlasting" Three Angel's Message

[skyblue888]

Quote:

skyblue888: I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.

____________________________________________________________

I don't have a fundamental disagreement with you here, sky, but I'm wondering what period of our history you speak of.

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us. We love the world more than we love the Lord and His kingdom. We say we want Him to come and take us home but we are really fence-sitters. We know we are but we can't seem to do anything to change it. I think what keeps us from changing is that we are too attached to our comforts and our possessions. I guess what it comes down to is that Jesus is right in what He says in His love-letter to the church of Loadicea.

As a church I believe that we're like the children of Israel on the edge of the Promised Land, refusing to go in. We're in rebellion against God and against His prophet, just as they were back then.

I don't know that much about you personally-- except that I know from your previous posts that we're usually in agreement on most things-- so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

Also, what specifically do you have in mind when you say the church is no longer what it used to be? I agree with you but am interested in exactly what you are thinking of.

___________________________________________________

John, It goes along the same lines. In 1896 the Holy Spirit declared that "The people to whom God entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings. Has God made a mistake?" See T.M.397.

In 1901 a testimony was sent to the effect that "The church has gone over to the world in transgression to the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law." C.O.L.316.

I wonder what the Lord would say through the prophet if she were alive today!!! What does that say about our being the last church? The same year another solemn testimony was sent to the church declaring that "We may have to remain in this world because of our insubordination many more years." Letter 184, 1901.

In 1903 the Holy Spirit said that "The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." from R&H, Aug.20,1903.

This lamentable condition persisted until between 1955 and 1957, the leaders of the General Conference met with representatives of the popular churches and agreed to make compromises over our sanctuary doctrine, the fundamental and central pillar of the Advent Movement, in order to be recognized by the WCC as a Christian denomination, and no longer as an anti-christian cult. The leaders wished to be reckoned among "the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate." 1 S.M.222, bottom of page.

Since then things have gotten from bad to worse. In the meantime, the true 1888 message has been lost sight of. It can still be said that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

In 1901 steps were taken to do away with the election of a General Conference president in oder to establish the Christian order for the church of Christ. Two years later, in 1903, the Christian order of organization adopted by the leaders at the 1901 Constitution was repudiated and today we have the legacy of the 1903 General Conference Constitution which is opposed to Christian order.

A few years later, this testimony was sent:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-sufficient management of men has resulted in putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Where is at now?

You asked me if I am still a member. Yes I still have membership but for the last four years I have been home churching. We all know there are many adventists around the world who are home churching. I am not saying that all who are home churching have been called of God because I am sure many are self-called.

Now that doesn't mean that these men and women of God's own choosing are calling people out of the church because that is not their message any more than the disciples of Christ called their fellow Jews to come out of the church. That didn't come until after the great persecution in A.D.34. Then it was present truth to call the honest ones out of the Jewish established organization because by putting Stephen and James to death the church had sealed her rejection of God's mercy. See C.O.L.308,309.

These men and women of God's own choosing are going through a "wilderness" experience. Just as Jesus and His disciples were identified as the "little church" within the "established church" of their day, so today God has a "little church," within the established church. They are "men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe the Word of God." C.O.L.79. The Lord has taken them away from the assemblies of men to the "desert" if you will, that He may teach them His message. He is preparing them just as He prepared His disciples to give the last message of mercy to the church and then to the world.

We will be surprised by the simple means He will use to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. One thing we may know for sure of is that when He does finish the work, it will be "in a manner very much out of the common order of things and contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Back to you John.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us.

I agree with all of this until the last sentence. If the problem is one of simply not putting into practice the truths that have been revealed, I don't how Christ could ever come, because what would ever cause this to change?

The time when Christ was closest to coming was in the 1888 era. What sparked things was a *message*. People aren't going to change, but a message, a Gospel message from God, has the power to dramatically change lives and prepare the way for Christ's coming. Over and over EGW speaks to this, as evidenced by the 1888 Materials.

Unfortunately, as EGW explains in 1SM 234-5, the message met with resistance from the high mucky-mucks, and never had the sway God intended.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: I agree with all of this until the last sentence. If the problem is one of simply not putting into practice the truths that have been revealed, I don't how Christ could ever come, because what would ever cause this to change?

Well, I agree with much of this post, but not the part where you ask, "what would ever cause this to change?"

It is a good question but there is also a good answer: The change comes as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit, not through the effort of man or through "campaigns." I don't think this change in people will ever include the majority of Seventh-day Adventists, but it will be a remnant of the Remnant. At some point God will purify His church, and this purification will come through, among others, the introduction of heresies and allowing persecution to occur. God will allow the persecution when He sees that His people are ready for it. At that time many who didn't allow the truth to sanctify themselves will be shaken out of the church, and many others will be shaken in to take the place of those shaken out. I beleive this is part of the answer to your question.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: The time when Christ was closest to coming was in the 1888 era. What sparked things was a *message*. People aren't going to change,

You are right that people aren't going to change on their own, but they will change with the Holy Spirit's power, and that is the only way they will ever change. It will happen.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: but a message, a Gospel message from God, has the power to dramatically change lives and prepare the way for Christ's coming. Over and over EGW speaks to this, as evidenced by the 1888 Materials.

Agree.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Unfortunately, as EGW explains in 1SM 234-5, the message met with resistance from the high mucky-mucks, and never had the sway God intended.

Agree again, but many people are wrong about what that message was/is. God did not see fit to have the talks by Jones and Waggoner recorded by a stenographer. Ellen White's were, however. I think that was no doubt Providential, that theirs were not written down. I think God wants us to have to study individually to find out what He has for us and not feel that we can learn it simply by reading an article or one book. Yes, we can certainly learn about it from studying Ellen White, and Jones and Waggoner's books, but there is good evidence that Jones and Waggoner were wrong on some things-- and besides, they changed some of their beliefs not long after 1888-- so we can't assume that we can know precisely what the 1888 Message was by studying their writings. For instance, both men, and especially Waggoner, referred to "justification" as "making" us righteous, but I wonder if this is what they taught at the 1888 General Conference.

In any case, their view of Righteousness by Faith and the other, related doctrines was quiet different from the way most SDAs believe today. The most important difference was that both Ellen White and Jones & Waggoner taught that justification by faith is not merely a forensic transation, but that God actually changes the life in radically ways at the time He justifies us.

They talked often about the fact that God's word has creative power so that when He justifies us-- or puts us in right relationship to Him-- He simultaneously sends the Spirit into our lives and we become new creatures in Christ. So they could talk about justification "making" people righteous, and not merely declaring them righteous.

In that way, then, their message of justification by faith was really quite different from Luther's and the rest of the leaders of the Reformation. Yet, interestingly, A.G. Daniells evidently didn't see this important difference, so he taught that the 1888 Message was essentially a rediscovery of the old messsage that the Reformers preached. I believe he was wrong. It seems obvious to me that the 1888 Message was a new message in some very fundamental ways. Tragically, though, it was rejected by the church as a whole, especially by the leadership, so that to this day it has never been accepted and practiced by the largest portion of the church.

[Robert]

a remnant of the Remnant

Oh boy...please...not this nonsense!

[teresaq]

Quote:

so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

in light of the fact that most "active members" of the church will leave in droves, while "many" who have left will come back in, i tend to find it irrelevant to anything that im an active member.

[skyblue888]

skyblue888: I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.

____________________________________________________________

I don't have a fundamental disagreement with you here, sky, but I'm wondering what period of our history you speak of.

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us. We love the world more than we love the Lord and His kingdom. We say we want Him to come and take us home but we are really fence-sitters. We know we are but we can't seem to do anything to change it. I think what keeps us from changing is that we are too attached to our comforts and our possessions. I guess what it comes down to is that Jesus is right in what He says in His love-letter to the church of Loadicea.

As a church I believe that we're like the children of Israel on the edge of the Promised Land, refusing to go in. We're in rebellion against God and against His prophet, just as they were back then.

I don't know that much about you personally-- except that I know from your previous posts that we're usually in agreement on most things-- so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

Also, what specifically do you have in mind when you say the church is no longer what it used to be? I agree with you but am interested in exactly what you are thinking of.

___________________________________________________

John, It goes along the same lines. In 1896 the Holy Spirit declared that "The people to whom God entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings. Has God made a mistake?" See T.M.397.

In 1901 a testimony was sent to the effect that "The church has gone over to the world in transgression to the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law." C.O.L.316.

I wonder what the Lord would say through the prophet if she were alive today!!! What does that say about our being the last church? The same year another solemn testimony was sent to the church declaring that "We may have to remain in this world because of our insubordination many more years." Letter 184, 1901.

In 1903 the Holy Spirit said that "The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." from R&H, Aug.20,1903.

This lamentable condition persisted until between 1955 and 1957, the leaders of the General Conference met with representatives of the popular churches and agreed to make compromises over our sanctuary doctrine, the fundamental and central pillar of the Advent Movement, in order to be recognized by the WCC as a Christian denomination, and no longer as an anti-christian cult. The leaders wished to be reckoned among "the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate." 1 S.M.222, bottom of page.

Since then things have gotten from bad to worse. In the meantime, the true 1888 message has been lost sight of. It can still be said that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

In 1901 steps were taken to do away with the election of a General Conference president in oder to establish the Christian order for the church of Christ. Two years later, in 1903, the Christian order of organization adopted by the leaders at the 1901 Constitution was repudiated and today we have the legacy of the 1903 General Conference Constitution which is opposed to Christian order.

A few years later, this testimony was sent:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-sufficient management of men has resulted in putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Where is at now?

You asked me if I am still a member. Yes I still have membership but for the last four years I have been home churching. We all know there are many adventists around the world who are home churching. I am not saying that all who are home churching have been called of God because I am sure many are self-called.

Now that doesn't mean that these men and women of God's own choosing are calling people out of the church because that is not their message any more than the disciples of Christ called their fellow Jews to come out of the church. That didn't come until after the great persecution in A.D.34. Then it was present truth to call the honest ones out of the Jewish established organization because by putting Stephen and James to death the church had sealed her rejection of God's mercy. See C.O.L.308,309.

These men and women of God's own choosing are going through a "wilderness" experience. Just as Jesus and His disciples were identified as the "little church" within the "established church" of their day, so today God has a "little church," within the established church. They are "men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe the Word of God." C.O.L.79. The Lord has taken them away from the assemblies of men to the "desert" if you will, that He may teach them His message. He is preparing them just as He prepared His disciples to give the last message of mercy to the church and then to the world.

We will be surprised by the simple means He will use to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. One thing we may know for sure of is that when He does finish the work, it will be "in a manner very much out of the common order of things and contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Back to you John.

sky

John, did u miss this post. I answered your questions. No comment?

sky

[Dr. Rich]

John 317, I, personally, have found that those who have written bible commentaries, including the few SDA writers, ALL used a faulty foundation for their understanding which helped caused the readers to have faulty understanding(s). Many assumed, wrongly, that Paul must have had eye problems because of the time he was blinded. They get this from a statement about large or BOLD letters, much like we use to help get a point across.

They do this because they do NOT want to look at the truth of what was written by Paul, in that his god actually gave him a demon. It is interesting that Paul wrote in 1Tim that he gave people over to Satan to teach them a lesson. Therefore it is very clear Paul thought that God had done the same thing to him to get him to believe that "all one needs is grace". Him, being a Pharisee, probably gave a great sigh of relief for this statement to release him from all of the MANY rules and regulations they had.

I also find it interesting that this event followed what he wrote about him going to the third heaven to see and visit with Mary (the mother of Jesus), along with many of the dead prophets. Sure, the words that Paul testified to in this event is not in the bible, but can be found by googling "Paul's Revelation" and it is also clear that the Catholic Church relied heavily upon this writing for their understanding about Mary and that people go to heaven or haties and have to work themselves to heaven, as soon as they die.

Their false belief was firmly established by an apostle their whole religious belief is founded upon, just as the SDA church has built their faulty belief on the "Three Angel's Message" because of the person who led the 'bondservants' astray as found in Rev. 2:18-25. Satan is a master at deception and God knew that only a few would find this out and not accept this false (deep things from Satan) belief, as found in Rev. 3:4.

[skyblue888]

John, no comment to my last post? there is a lot of meat in that post. And yet it is only scratching the surface. We need to discuss these statements.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Sky.

I would be happy to respond to your latest post but for one thing: none of the references that you cited come from Scripture (defined as the OT and the part of the New Testament that is given by eyewitnesses to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ).

This is disturbing to me. I question the validity of the author of your citations as being legitimate and having the authority that should only be given to verifiable Scripture. Do you personally believe that the author of the quotations you cite is a true prophet of the Living God, and has the authority as that of Scripture? If you do then would you please give me your reasons for believing as you do.

Thanks,

MM

[Guest]

My understanding of the prophecies in Revelation base solely on the wording of the above text indicates that they are ONLY for the Bondservants of Jesus Christ to understand, and no one else.

Then you are adding your own words and thoughts to the text. Because there is nothing in the text that indicates that they are ONLY for anybody. The words "only" and "bondservant" are your words. They are not found in the text. This is the main problem I have with your method of study. You are forever pointing to a text as proof of something that it does not say. You read in what is not there.

The text says blessed is he that reads or hears. There is no secret code there that says "this is only for the bondservants". And those messages most definately did apply to the churches they were sent to, at the time they were sent. God did not send them something they could not use. The main message in all of them seems to be about overcoming.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

There is nothing cryptic about that. And it was just as true then, as it is now. Do I believe they have a special meaning for us living in the last days? Yes I do. Especially the last one, written to the Laodiceans. That is the condition my church is in today. They are luke warm and don't even realize it. But the solution to the problem is given, so that we can be overcomers. And the solution is the same to us, as it was to them.

Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white clothing, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

And since you have no proof whatsoever as to who the false apostles are. Only speculation. It is most probably talking about the false apostles that lived back in that day. Because we know for sure that there were some. Just like there are today. (not calling any names)

Now as far as you adding things to the text that are not there. There is another text that strongly advises against doing that. Which is a good reason for you to stop doing it.

Rev 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Guest]

I would be happy to respond to your latest post but for one thing: none of the references that you cited come from Scripture (defined as the OT and the part of the New Testament that is given by eyewitnesses to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ).

Defined by who, you and two other people? If you choose to handicap yourself by disposing of parts of the Bible, that is your business. But don't expect others to short change themselves just because you have.

Personally I have experienced drastic changes in my life for the better, from reading and applying the things written in the books you say are no good. Even more so since you started disparaging them. Causing me to look at them more closely.

It just goes to show that God can use anybody, or anything for good. Even far fetched heresies. I have been drawn closer to Jesus from looking closer at the very things you try to get others to stop looking at. This has been and continues to be my experience.

And a man with experience, is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion.

[pnattmbtc]

Well, I agree with much of this post, but not the part where you ask, "what would ever cause this to change?"

It is a good question but there is also a good answer: The change comes as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit, not through the effort of man or through "campaigns."

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: musicman

I would be happy to respond to your latest post but for one thing: none of the references that you cited come from Scripture (defined as the OT and the part of the New Testament that is given by eyewitnesses to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ).

Defined by who, you and two other people? If you choose to handicap yourself by disposing of parts of the Bible, that is your business. But don't expect others to short change themselves just because you have.

Personally I have experienced drastic changes in my life for the better, from reading and applying the things written in the books you say are no good. Even more so since you started disparaging them. Causing me to look at them more closely.

It just goes to show that God can use anybody, or anything for good. Even far fetched heresies. I have been drawn closer to Jesus from looking closer at the very things you try to get others to stop looking at. This has been and continues to be my experience.

And a man with experience, is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion.

Richard, you got it, and then you didn't.

The fact that you have taken a second look at things that I have proposed makes me feel that what I have done here is worth the effort. If I have influenced you to take a look at what it is that you believe to see if it is true then that has achieved my goal. I have never and will never tell someone WHAT the MUST believe, all I am interested in is having people know what they believe and why. I am so pleased that you have been drawn closer to Jesus for whatever reason and by whatever means. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not me.

For myself I don't 'believe' anything because belief is mere speculation. There are a few things that I 'know' to be true; as for the rest, I am still in the process of learning what is true by getting rid of the lies that look like truth. Belief only gets in the way of learning, because it prejudices what you deem as important to the study.

As to your phrase 'far fetched heresies'; this too is mere speculation on your part and comes from your 'faith' that what you 'believe' is the only truth worth knowing. I make no claim on what I know as being true. That is for each of us to decide for ourselves.

[skyblue888]

Amen. I agree with you pnatt. I too have studied the history of the 1888 message and it is not true to say that the message was not recorded. It was taken down in shorthand by Waggoner's wife at the time and later the messages were published in three booklets; Christ and His rigtheousness; The Gospel in Creation, and Glad Tidings. And, as you stated, there are the 1893 and 1895 lectures by Jones which he himself said are the 1888 message with more power and glory. But the Holy Spirit spoke through Mrs. White too especially after the meetings and through her the message was even more simplified to the point where it was said that "the matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC." F.W.64. But then she immediately added, "But we don't understand it." Ibid.

I could go on and on as to how she simplified it but I think you all know what she said by now, re: all the studies I have shared regarding the merits and righteousness of Christ.

sky

[Guest]

For myself I don't 'believe' anything because belief is mere speculation.

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

God did not see fit to have the talks by Jones and Waggoner recorded by a stenographer.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: If you're talking about what Waggoner said, that was written down by his wife, reprinted as Signs of the Times articles,

Could you please give the reference for that information-- I mean that what was printed in the Signs of the Times was in fact the very words that Waggoner spoke at the General Conference in 1888? Are you speaking of the articles printed 1-21-1889?

I'm talking about both E.J Waggoner and A.T. Jones. Neither one had their talks at the GC written down at the time they spoke there.

Here is what Robert Wieland wrote in his book, The 1888 Message, An Introduction (1980):

"A few rejoiced in the message (at the GC in 1888) and truly accepted it. Foremost among them was Ellen G. White. BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE THOUGHT THE MESSAGE IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO TAKE DOWN IN SHORTHAND SO THAT OTHERS COULD KNOW FIRSTHAND WHAT THEY SAID. HENCE, WE REALLY DO NOT HAVE THE 1888 MESSAGE ITSELF IN THE EXACT WORDS OF THE TWO YOUNG MESSENGERS AT MINNEAPOLIS" (p. 9).

I am not claiming that we cannot know anything about what was said at Minneapolis. I am saying that we cannot be sure of exactly what they said.

We know what Waggoner taught in the months immediately prior to the 1888 GC. We also know what Waggoner wrote in the signs in 1-21-89, a few months after the GC. We know that Waggoner and Jones were in agreement in what they said concerning the doctrine of righteousness by faith.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: and then published in the book "Christ Our Righteousness" which was renamed to "Christ and His Righteousness," available online. So anyone can see what he presented in 1888.

When was E. J. Waggoner's book, Christ Our Righteousness, first published? Wasn't it in the year 1890, about 2 years AFTER the 1888 GC?

That fact itself means that we have to assume it wasn't exactly the same message they taught in 1888. Something written two years later cannot very well be used as evidence of what someone taught two years before the book was written. My point is that one cannot read Christ Our Righteousness with complete assurance that one is reading what Waggoner said at Minneapolis.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: But EGW's endorsements weren't limited to just 1888. The continued for years. They included Prescott for a briefer amount of time, around 1895-1896.

Sure. I believe she fully endorsed the message of 1888 as taught by Waggoner and Jones. This doesn't mean, however, that she endorsed every word they wrote or spoke. In fact, there were times when she cautioned them about some of their beliefs and actions.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Ellen White's [sermons at the 1888 GC] were, however, [recorded by a stenographer].

Quote:

pnattmbtc: And so was Jones and Waggoners.

References, please?

Again, here is what Robert Wieland wrote in his book, The 1888 Message, An Introduction (1980):

"A few rejoiced in the message (at the GC in 1888) and truly accepted it. Foremost among them was Ellen G. White. BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE THOUGHT THE MESSAGE IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO TAKE DOWN IN SHORTHAND SO THAT OTHERS COULD KNOW FIRSTHAND WHAT THEY SAID. HENCE, WE REALLY DO NOT HAVE THE 1888 MESSAGE ITSELF IN THE EXACT WORDS OF THE TWO YOUNG MESSENGERS AT MINNEAPOLIS" (p. 9).

Here's another quote on the subject:

"The burning question is, What did Waggoner actually present in 1888? We have no record of Waggoner and Jones' actual presentations" (Ellet Joseph Waggoneer: The Myth and the Man, David P. McMahon, 1979, p. 71).

Here's still another:

"The sermons that Jones and Waggoner preached at the institute and at the General Conference session were not recorded; neither were some of Ellen White's. But we may gather the substance of their message from their writings" (What Every Adventist Should Know About 1888, Arnold V. Wallenkampf, 1988)

Wallenkampf was associate director of the Biblical Research Institute of the General Conference.

Quote:

We have Jones talks from 1893 and 1895. There are other talks given by Jones and Waggoner which were recorded as well. Jones and Waggoner both wrote down their thoughts as well, hundreds of pages, just like Ellen White did.

None of these are relevant to the question of exactly what they said at Minneapolis. We have no guarantee that those talks and books written between 2 to 12 years after the sermons were the same as the sermons given by Jones and Waggoner. We know the substance of what they probably said, but there's no way to go back and reconstruct exactly what was said there because no one wrote it down at the time. We have things they wrote before and things they wrote a few months later, but my point is that we do not have the actual words of the men.

It's well known that they and Ellen White wrote down their thoughts much later, but that is hardly the same as writing down the sermons themselves at the time they were delivered.

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JOHN3:17: I think that was no doubt Providential, that theirs were not written down.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: They were written down. There are hundreds of pages of written down, perhaps thousands of pages.

You seem not to understand my meaning: I'm not denying that those two men wrote books and gave sermons that were recorded. I'm saying we don't have the actual words that were said there, as we do for most of what Ellen White said. The hundreds or thousands of pages they wrote are not the actual sermons they delivered at the General Conference.

That was a long time after 1888 and after the meetings at Minn. I'm saying that the very words spoken by Waggoner and Jones at the GC were not written down at the time he said them, as Ellen White's were. Of course both men wrote thousands of pages between then and 1900. But that is not what I am talking about. It only proves my point-- that what we have are writings that came AFTER the fact, not at the time the GC was in session.

It is necessary to reconstruct the sermons on the basis of (1) summaries by the witnesses, such as Uriah Smith (2) comments by Ellen White, and 3) what Waggoner and Jones wrote before the GC or a few months afterward.

[John317]

Yes, of course the Bible is a book, as are the other titles you listed. It goes without saying that I'm not disputing that those are books.

My point is that the 1888 Message is not to be found in a single book devoted to that subject. You can't pick up a book and say, This book is the 1888 Message. Any one book you read may summarize or contain parts of the 1888 Message, but it won't contain the comprehensive message. I believe that's as God wanted it. He didn't want people simply copying the message of Waggoner and Jones. He wants us to dig for the truth, not think that this message is to be found in one book (i.e., books outside the Bible).

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17: It seems obvious to me that the 1888 Message was a new message in some very fundamental ways. Tragically, though, it was rejected by the church as a whole, especially by the leadership, so that to this day it has never been accepted and practiced by the largest portion of the church.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: It wasn't rejected by the church as a whole because the church as a whole never had a chance to hear it. 1SM 234-235 makes this clear. The message was prevented from being spread as God intended.

It was rejected by most of those who heard it. It was accepted by some-- but rejected by most, particularly most of the leadership. This is despite what LeRoy Edwin Froom has written in his book, Movement of Destiny. Froom attempted to make it look as if 1888 had been a great victory for the church but in fact it was a defeat for the church in general (i.e., those who heard the message).

[skyblue888]

John, I agree that Froom's claim that the message was mostly accepted is false. You are absolutely right in saying that. Mrs. White wrote, "The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world." 1 S.M.235.

It didn't have to be all the leaders. Those who were the most influential, like the president of the G.C. G.I. Butler,Uriah Smith, eminent historian and theologian, and Morisson, a prominent minister. These three played a significant role in having the 1888 message rejected. In fact Mrs. White said that they were the counterpart of the ring leaders who opposed Moses in the wilderness, Kora, Dathan, and Abiram.

sky

[skyblue888]

John, do you own a copy of Movement of Destiny by Leroy E. Froom? Look up pp.188,189, 200 and in those pages you will find the answer to your question. Froom, as you know, was a historian for the church. So you may want to check with him first as far as that is concerned. He knew that the message had been recorded, taken down in shorthand by Waggoner's wife. It is all documented in that book as to what happened to his messages after the Conference.

You said, "I believe that's as God wanted it. He didn't want people simply copying the message of Waggoner and Jones. He wants us to dig for the truth, not think that this message is to be found in one book (i.e., books outside the Bible)."

What, in God's name, is this supposed to mean John? As though God didn't want "the most precious message" He ever sent to His people to be lost. No wonder the message has been lost sight of.

I totally reject this supposition. The only reason I can see why the Conference did not make any effort to gather their messages after the conference is that they were opposed to these messages just as the Jewish leaders were opposed to the teachings of Christ. It was not in their interest to provide the people with these messages. In the subsequent years they put forth the claim that both messengers had apostatized and that therefore their message could not be trusted or something to that effect.

sky

[skyblue888]

Waggoner's Studies Recorded In Shorthand.--The third source and unquestionably most significant of all--are what we have every reason to believe are the actual studies themselves, given by Waggoner at the Conference, preserved through the shorthand reports taken down by Jessie F. Moser-Waggoner at the time. Here neither the tricks of memory nor the slant of other minds intruded. These transcribed studies were edited by Waggoner himself, then were put into book form--the first of which (Christ And His Righteousness) was published by the Pacitic Press in October, 1890. The others appeared later." Movement of Destiy, L.E. Froom, p.189. *parenthesis supplied

How is that for a start?

sky

[skyblue888]

Recorded In Three Consecutive Books--For documentary record, three small books grew out of the Waggoner series of studies at the 1888 Minneapolis Conference, giving them permanent record. Taken down in shorthand by Jessie F. Moser-Waggoner, the talks were issued in the following order, the first one giving the heart of the presentation:

1. Christ and His Righteousness (96 pages, Octover 5, 1890. Published by the Pacific Press in Oakland, California, it was edited by E.J. Waggoner--still at the Pacific Press--shortly before he left for service in England. It was reprinted in London in 1892, and likewise in Australia in 1892.

2. The Gospel in Creation (176 pages) This was issued in London in 1893, during Waggoner's service there. (There was a second printing in 1897 at Battle Creek, Michigan.)

3 The Glad Tidings (265 pages; Pacific Press. Oakland, July, 1900). Published after Waggoner had returned to the United States, with M.C. Wilcox as editor of Pacific Press.

Taken from Movement of Destiny, Leroy E. Froom, p.200,201.

I have had these books for many years and I have read them and studied them over and over again. In fact I have own several copies of them. They were so marked and worn out that I had to buy new copies and start all over again. These three books contain the most precious message ever sent to us as a people.

sky

[Guest]

What about Jones?

[skyblue888]

The 1888 studies as presented by A.T. Jones were repeated again at the 1893 G. Conference. On page 494 of the 1893 Bulletin, Jones says this:

"And the people of today who reject this message, which is now the message of to-day, as they rejected and slighted that four years ago, are taking the step which will leave them everlastingly behind, and which involves their whole salvation. God has given us a message, and has borne with us these four years, in oder that we might receive this which is now (1893) the message. Those who cannot receive that message are not prepared to receive this message, because they rejected that. And now when God gives the other in special measure in order that this may be received, and both together are slighted, then what can become of those blind eyes? What can become of them?"

So the 1893 lectures were a repeat of the 1888 lectures except that this time they were given in "special measure".

Elder Jones gave a series of 22 lectures. Every one of them is packed with gems that most adventists have never been able to appreciate because they don't even know it is available. I have read these lectures again and again over the last 25 years and I am telling you, as you read you get a strong impression that the Spirit of the Lord was with him to deliver most stupendous truths to God's professed people.

So if you wish to know about the 1888 message as presented by Elder Jones you need not search any longer. These studies have been available for many years.

sky

[Guest]

I have the EGW CD Rom that has the writings of the pioneers. I wonder if all of them are on there?