Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[Robert]

The Peril of Unbelief

[Nicodema]

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As I understand your point of view:

You believe that the lost will be recreated again in the same way Adam and Eve were created, sinless, righteous, perfect. Is this correct?

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I'm exploring ideas, Dave. I'm not ready to commit to saying this is OR is not my point of view. I am exploring because I am dissatisfied with the contradictions inherent in the traditional point of view and factors in it which I perceive as highly vulnerable to human exploitation and manipulation toward wicked ends. Primarily though I'd like to concern myself in this thread with addressing that first part, the inherent self-contradictions between the traditional esch. and what we know of the character of God manifest in Christ and the radical teaching of Christ. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" I believe yes, of course He shall. I'm just not sure that what we humans see as "right" -- destroying our enemies and burning them to cinders -- is a fitting way to represent the King of the Universe who is ostensibly a bit more intelligent, enlightened, mature and open-minded/open-hearted than we sinners with our fixation on (our skewed perceptions of) "fairness" (getting my way) and "justice" (making them pay!)

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Rev 20:1-15

This is the entire chapter of Rev 20, the only place in the Bible where this event is portrayed. Where in this chapter do you find that the wicked are given a second chance. I am willing to learn. Please give me Bible texts that support your ideas.

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First of all, you have to realize our own extant eschatological take is highly interpretative and not organic to this text either, and comes from a pooling together of theological understanding, not simply the verses of this text. So also with mine.

It is not anything like "a second chance;" it is more that they agree with God upon the truth and offer themselves to Him for their own deaths. I can't see Him NOT sparing them at that point, particularly ones who are ready to say they erred, which, by confessing the justice of their sentence, they essentially DO. Now, it is argued that their character remains unchanged. Well so would ours were it not for the Holy Spirit changing us inside! So I can't see the Holy Spirit taking an attitude like, "nooooo, you didn't do it when you had a chance, nyah nyah, I'm not going to change you NOW." The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, so how does the mere passage of TIME change all that? And who would have their nose out of joint over it if any of them were restored? I wouldn't. I'd be rejoicing!

There is one text you can look to in this chapter, the last verse. "Whosoever was found NOT WRITTEN in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." First, it doesn't say everyone, it only says those not in the Book of Life. What is this fire, though? Is it not the creative fire of God Himself, His holy, consuming fire??? If they were going to be thrown away anyway, wouldn't that be just as much a violation of their free will (to want to live) as it would to let them live but take sin out of them regardless of their choices? In other words, either way constitutes a violation of their free wills. Nobody chooses the lake of fire. They choose this or that sin, habit, whatever, whether they like it or they just can't get past it, but nobody literally chooses yes I want to burn up and be dead forever, whee, yum. So it is a violation already of their free wills to say, "Oh because you chose to eat this or do that, you're going to this fire now," or "Oh because you didn't believe in Jesus you're going to burn up now forever" -- so what's the point of claiming this somehow PRESERVES their freedom of choice? It would at LEAST preserve their LIFE and unique INDIVIDUALITY to restore them to their original blueprint. God is generous and gracious, but He is not wasteful as far as I'm aware.

You want me to do Rev 20 blow by blow? Need brain cells for that ... I'd like to, when I get a moment of real cognitive function going on here, not just stumble stumble blather (from tiredness/fatigue, not drunkenness!)

[cardw]

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I simply cannot abide the thought that God is no greater, no higher, no wiser than human beings. We think the greatest good in the world is to be rid of those with whom we disagree -- those who make existence unpleasant for us -- surely God must be wiser, higher, better than that.

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This is from the book, "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" by Kenneth S. Leong. Basically the author was raised a Christian, became a Zen Bhuddist, came back and read the gospels and realized that Jesus was teaching Zen.

This is a quote from the book that might offer a perspective on your own observation above...

"During an interview, Bill Moyers of PBS made the comment to Campbell (Joseph Campbell the noted mythologist) that 'there are many Christians who believe that, to find out who Jesus is, you have to go past the Christian Faith, past the Christian doctrine, and past the Christian Church.' Joseph Campbell replied,

'You have to go past the imagined picture of Jesus. Such an image of one's god becomes a final obstruction, one's ultimate barrier. You hold on to your own ideology, your own little manner of thinking, and when a larger experience of God approaches, an experience than you are prepared to recieve, you take flight from it by clinging to the image in your mind. This is known as preserving your faith.'

Christians are often quick to quote from the Bible, but their understanding of the Bible is a result of indoctrination rather than a product of personal realization. As such, it lacks guenuineness. Harold Bloom makes this comment on the idea of Biblical inerrancy.

"One of the great ironies of Protestant history is that the exaltation of scripture, which in the seventeenth century endowed Baptists and other Protestants with freedom from institutional constraints and with spiritual autonomy, has become, as the twentieth century closes, the agent for depriving Baptists and other Protestants of their Christian Liberty, their soul competency to read and interpret the Bible, each person by her own Inner Light."

Sociologist Ellen Rosenberg makes the following observation about Bible worship: "As the code words have become 'Bible inerrancy,' the Bible itself is less read than preached, less interpreted than brandished....The Bible has become a talisman."

I see this phenomenon all the time. A few quotes from the Bible and it will do its magic.

I believe our God is way past what we think and believe. God has to be past the Bible, the Christian Faith, Christian Doctrine, and even the Church.

Richard

[Robert]

Rom 10:17 faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the preaching of Christ.

In the beginning of Paul's ministry he made many good arguments, but neither the Jews nor the Greeks would budge from their views. So what does Paul do? He preaches Christ crucified!

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom [intellectualism]; 23 but instead [:"red"]we preach Christ crucified [/]to Jews a stumbling block, and to Greeks foolishness....

[DaveM1936]

I beleive that these two passages of scripture relate to the discussion.

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Mal 4:1-3

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)

2 Pet 2:3-9

3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--

9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. (NIV)

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What do you think? Notice the ideas presented:

l. Day of judgment.

2. Wicked will be ashes under our feet.

3. That day will be as an oven destroying ALL the wicked.

4. God did not spare the angels that sinned.

5. Neither did he spare Sodom. In fact the two cities represent the final destruction of the wicked.

6. Godly people will be rescued.

Perhaps you are being confused by many SDA's who have a completely wrong concept of God and His character.

Your friend,

Dave M

[cardw]

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In the beginning of Paul's ministry he made many good arguments, but neither the Jews nor the Greeks would budge from their views. So what does Paul do? He preaches Christ crucified!

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom [intellectualism]; 23 but instead we preach Christ crucified to Jews a stumbling block, and to Greeks foolishness....

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The problem with Paul is that Christ crucified is not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught about the kingdom of God and how to enter into it now. Jesus debated quite a bit. So if the debators of the age are fools, then Jesus, The debator of the age would be a fool. In fact Jesus was a master debator, because he could use a parable to completely change the context of another's point and show its absurdity.

There is nothing foolish about Jesus' message. That's why you will find little debate about the parables of Jesus and his application to real life and the spiritual life. Paul, on the other hand, was and is embroiled in all kinds of controversy because of his stand on women, his rather colorful attacks, and his complex doctrinal arguements. In fact, in the above text, he really passes judgement on himself. Because he embroiled himself in debate all the time. So who is the bigger fool? The fool who debates, or the debator who passes judgement for debating.

Richard

[Robert]

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So if the debators of the age are fools, then Jesus, The debator of the age would be a fool.

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Re-read my quote....You've gone off on a tangent (again!). Paul continued to debate, but only after his run in with the Greeks on Mars Hill did he decide to preach the cross. By that I am not talking of two pieces of wood and what the Romans did to Christ, rather I am talking about His love....

EGW:

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The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster.

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[Robert]

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Paul, on the other hand, was and is embroiled in all kinds of controversy because of his stand on women, his rather colorful attacks, and his complex doctrinal arguements. In fact, in the above text, he really passes judgement on himself. Because he embroiled himself in debate all the time. So who is the bigger fool? The fool who debates, or the debator who passes judgement for debating.

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Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God....

Unlike the other disciples who wrote about Christ's life, Paul was called by God and set apart to present the mechanics of the gospel. Christ chose him Himself. If you reject Paul's authority, you will end up rejecting Christ!

PS: There's no book called, "Jesus" chapter 1 verse 4....Jesus didn't have a book. The N.T. is about Him....Try to remember that Paul makes up 53% of the N.T.

[Pockey]

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Now, it is argued that their character remains unchanged. Well so would ours were it not for the Holy Spirit changing us inside! So I can't see the Holy Spirit taking an attitude like, "nooooo, you didn't do it when you had a chance, nyah nyah, I'm not going to change you NOW."

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Luke 16:19-26 is a very interesting passage, almost appears "weird". But I believe the key is in verse 26: "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

[cardw]

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Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God....

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I would note that this is Paul claiming this and you didn't compare what Paul says with what Jesus says. That was my point.

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PS: There's no book called, "Jesus" chapter 1 verse 4....Jesus didn't have a book. The N.T. is about Him....Try to remember that Paul makes up 53% of the N.T.

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So, my statement was the Paul is not emphasizing the same things as Jesus. Percentages have nothing to do with it. You worship the Bible and expect quotes to be proof enough. If you are going to dialog in the real world, Bible quotes simply don't cut it. Truth telling works and things that work get people's attention, but Bible quotes, more often than not, are seen as rude and offensive. And at the mildest level, often simplistic.

Richard

[Pockey]

Richard you're up late <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One question, are bible quotes often seen as rude/offensive? I had no idea, I guess I'm clueless. It's kinda the opposite for me, because the way I see it, if someone is just spouting off stuff, I have no idea if it's their personal opinion or supported opinion. If they provide evidence with biblical quotes, I'm more likely to trust what they're saying. What would be more tactful? This question I ask for everyone. I need guidance in how to communicate with others regarding His teachings.

[Robert]

Support it from the Bible....

Robert

[Gregory Matthews]

Sid, here are some examples (that I have mede up) that would be considered rude and inappropriate. when made in a direct application to a person or post.

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God." Ps. 14:1

"God will bring you into judgement." Eccl. 11:9

"You are brought down to hell. . ." Is. 14:15

While the above are all comments that I have made up, they are like comments that have been posted here. That type of posting is an inappropriate useage of Scripture.

[cardw]

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One question, are bible quotes often seen as rude/offensive? I had no idea, I guess I'm clueless. It's kinda the opposite for me, because the way I see it, if someone is just spouting off stuff, I have no idea if it's their personal opinion or supported opinion. If they provide evidence with biblical quotes, I'm more likely to trust what they're saying. What would be more tactful? This question I ask for everyone. I need guidance in how to communicate with others regarding His teachings.

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Greg gave some great specific examples. I'm being ironic, but according to you, because you did not provide Bible quotes, I don't know if your just spouting off or your opinion is supported.

In the real world, what works is the highest evidence.

This whole diaolog is a red herring. My point was that Paul emphasized different things than Jesus. Paul emphasized the theology of Jesus' crucifiction. Jesus emphasized the practical philosophy of entering into God's kingdom in the present tense. These are far different ideas. There should be Bible quotes to refute this, but the only quotes that I have read have been

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” (This one was in bold)

Mal 4:1-3

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)

2 Pet 2:3-9

3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

The first one was directed at me, while the others have been part of the dialog. The first one essentially calls me a fool. Rather than entering into dialog, proof texts are lobbed around like hand grenades.

This is using the Bible like a tailsman or the casting of spells.

Richard

[Pockey]

Gregory and Richard, thanks for your input. That makes sense. It's funny, I knew certain things when I was a child, yet, somethings have had to come full circle before I realize them again.

[Nicodema]

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Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle,

set apart for the gospel of God

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... wrote Paul ...

And I could legitimately and honestly write the exact same words about myself, because just like Paul, I received Christ through a direct encounter with the Holy Spirit and not through any human involvement whatsoever, and was directly called and set apart for the gospel of God. That is the truth of how I came to originally know and follow Christ.

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Unlike the other disciples who wrote about Christ's life, Paul was called by God and set apart .... Christ chose him Himself.

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Um, each of those other disciples were also called and chosen directly by Christ. It's in the gospel accounts ...

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If you reject Paul's authority, you will end up rejecting Christ!

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I disagree. In fact, so does Paul himself -- if you read 1 Corinthians 1:13.

[Nicodema]

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC or else start a new thread for new tangents of discussion?? Thanks!

[Nicodema]

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Mal 4:1-3

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)

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But it seems just as plausible to me to interpret this non-literally. For example: the Sun of righteousness = metaphor. Healing wings = metaphor (a Sun does not have wings unless we're talking about the Winged Globe Hadit? LOL) Calves of the stall = metaphor. Burn "as an oven" = metaphor. (A day cannot be an oven.) This clearly is not a literal passage.

Therefore it seems plausible to me to interpret "the wicked" etc. as the virus and that which constitutes evil, being taken out of sentient creatures and destroyed permanently. Those who FEAR His name can be everyone who does so, since those who LOVE Him reverence-fear Him and those who did not love Him FEAR-fear Him. Do you see my point?

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2 Pet 2:3-9

3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--

9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. (NIV)

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First, 2 Peter is practically apocryphal in itself, but we don't need to get into that here (I don't know enough about it to conduct a proper debate on it but the book is highly dubious according to scholars). Leaving that aside, the point of the passage is summarized in verse 9, and judgment does not mean anything other than a final assessment. Punishment seems to mean now, while in life, through consequences and cause and effect; this is part of the meaning of the passage is to point to those things.

I guess I just tend to feel that all these kinds of things are the product of sin-ridden minds that won't see that next step till the resurrection. They seem angry and unhappy and eager to see others destroyed, in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus. Maybe it's not really the 2nd resurrection I'm struggling with so much as my own character development, wondering what way am I supposed to be growing as a Christian, and what is supposed to be my response to my enemies? Because I cannot simultaneously love them and long for vengeance against them. Like with two masters I cannot serve both, but will obey one and shun the other. I cannot entertain both "vengeance is Mine, I will repay" AND "turn the other cheek / love thine enemies." And I cannot abide the contradiction that God is "worse" than He asks me to be. I may be only capable of comprehending God in human terms at best, but I must comprehend God in terms that make sense, and a God of vengeance and war telling me to turn the other cheek makes no sense to me. A God who will not restrain His own anger makes no sense to tell me, who is weaker and full of iniquity, to restrain mine. I want to obey the One who tells me such wonderful and good things to do. But I cannot defend the One who contradicts those things. And so I must find answers that make sense.

It ALMOST makes sense. If I think strictly in terms of justice and not in terms of mercy, it makes sense -- almost. But not quite.

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Perhaps you are being confused by many SDA's who have a completely wrong concept of God and His character.

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Nobody is "confusing me" that I know of. People confuse me in general because of their swiftness to cruelty and their stubborn self-justifications in the face of wanton, obvious, grotesque levels of it (like children who lie and are caught in it who simply continue to repeat the lie like a broken record, as if their insistence alone can make it so) -- and this negatively impacts my ability to connect with and comprehend God -- is this what you mean?

You see, I could say sure, as a sinner, I would love to see, in that day, God do away with this or that class of person. But every pronouncement of judgment from a sinner's lips is ultimately on his or her own head. If I say this or that class deserves judgment, I am inviting someone else to demonstrate how I fit that bill myself and thus deserve it (a twist on Romans 2:1 there). So I don't even understand how any of us can uphold a vengeful, wrathful Deity and not be outting ourselves as total hypocrites, if not madmen and terrorists. (*sigh*) -- I don't mean to be inflammatory here and I'm not calling anyone names; this is really how I feel.

[8thdaypriest]

Whew!!!! I'm exhausted just reading through all of this thread. Nico, you have an amazing mind.

I'm just a simple sort. I got soooooo angry at the LORD for not fulfilling His promise of Ezekiel 36, that I was screaming at Him in my car as I drove home. Probably a dangerous state of mind to be driving....

I yelled at Him that I wasn't even going to try any more. "I give up," I screamed with tears. And I gave up. I stopped trying.

And ya know - for the next several days I was the sweetest person you would ever meet. I didn't get impatient. I didn't criticize. etc. etc.

Then I started trying again - and FELL on my face...

It took a few more times like that before I began to get the idea.

No I'm not perfect yet, but I've learned that I need to stay out of HIS way. I need to turn my attention to helping and blessing others, not perfecting myself.

When my husband was baptized (8 years after I was) I asked him what it was that got him to make the commitment. He didn't hesitate for 2 seconds. "The change in you," he said. "I loved you, but you were not a very nice person."

Thing is - I didn't have any sense that I had changed. But to my husband, the change was so dramatic - it caused him to believe in God.

This whole "being perfect" thing has sooooo many SDAs depressed. The rest are beating everyone else over the head with it.

Perfecting me is HIS job. My job is to believe that HE can do it.

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

Nico,

I'm not SDA, and I do not understand the "second resurrection" as the SDAs teach it. I believe that those committed to conscious rebellion against the LORD will be resurrected to face judgment at the Second Coming, and then destroyed on that same day.

The righteous go with Christ to the Father's House, where 1000 years of healing will take place before they are ready to serve as "priests of God and of Christ" for the "rest of the dead."

In the ancient type - those who had touched death, were to be cleansed by sprinkling with the water + ashes of the red heifer, on the 3rd day and on the 7th day. At sundown of the 7rd day, they would be "clean."

I don't think anyone who lived during this first age (Christ excepted) will be "clean" of the effects of sin/death UNTIL sundown of the 7th day (the 7th millennium).

Those raised "second" - after the 1000 years of the 7th millennium - will be those who lived in ignorance, those who were too immature (children), or too disabled to make an informed choice to follow Christ, during their lives in the first age.

There are detailed studies at my website: www.prophecyviewpoint.com.

The study called "Judgment Day" is recorded and ready to load. I hope to have it up by Sunday or maybe even Sabbath.

PS: I'm just not sure that all of the wicked will bow down to Christ, especially Satan. That verse may be speaking of "every" being who is left after those committed to rebellion are gone. I know someone will quote something from EGW, but I would need Bible to be certain who the "every knee" belong to.

Shalom

Rachel

[Gibs]

Personally I do believe Satan will finally bow and acknowledge his destruction righteous.

Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

The pre incarnate "Jesus" created Satan and he will finally bow and confess His Creator Righteous.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gibs]

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

But our Bible does make it clear of the two resurrections,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[phkrause]

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

But our Bible does make it clear of the two resurrections,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Exactly Gibs, on this point we agree.

[8thdaypriest]

I understand the "great white throne" judgment and "lake of fire" somewhat differently from SDAs.

This judgment does not take place until AFTER the Gog-Magog rebellion, which battle does not take place until AFTER the last great resurrection of the 8th millennium, which will be a resurrection of all those who could not make an informed decision for or against Christ as LORD during the first age, because they were immature, mentally disabled, or innocently ignorant.

(Those irreversibly lost during the first age, will be resurrected, judged and physically destroyed at the Second Coming.)

So - this final lake of fire judgment does NOT take place at the Second Coming. This judgment is the concluding event in the history of sin and its consequence.

Satan and his evil angels are thrown into the lake of fire at the Gog-Magog Battle. (The lake of fire was after all - prepared for the Devil and his angels.) This final concluding judgment does not concern them. They will already have been dispatched when this judgment sits.

This judgment will decide which human beings will be finally destroyed in the same lake of fire. The wicked who are resurrected to face Jesus Christ at the Second Coming - will be "slain by the brightness of His coming, and their bodies consumed in the last plagues.

Those who side with Chief Gog in rebellion against King Jesus Christ will also die. There is no mention in Scripture of a third resurrection -

soooooooo - all of these people WILL BE DEAD (unconscious) when the

final judgment sits. What then is thrown into the lake of fire?

I believe God retains a memory of the mind of each individual who has lived. His Spirit flows through us - giving us life. This retained memory is what God uses to resurrect each person with mind and memory intact - in a new body. I don't know what is so difficult to understand in this day of computers and memory sticks. Our brains are sophisticated living bio-computers. How do you think the LORD instantly confused the languages of the builders of the Tower of Babel. He simply plugged in a language program. Same for Pentecost - a universal translator.

It is this memory - this DNA or download of the each mind (so-to-speak) which God will destroy in the lake of fire. These people are NOT living. They are dead. No-where does it state that they are raised to live again.

Once this bit of spiritual/electronic information, retained from each of these persons, is destroyed in the lake of fire - these persons CANNOT EVER BE RESURRECTED AGAIN. That's the point.

And the "books" being opened?? God knows the mind/heart. What does He need with books? - It's human beings who need to look at the records.

God will not execute without the consent of the governed. In doing so, He would loose the trust which He has worked for 8000 years to gain. THAT is the purpose of this final judgment and review of the records.

The redeemed must judge for themselves that God has done EVERYTHING divinely possible to win the trust of those who finally refused. They must agree that there was NOTHING ELSE that God could do. Only then could the redeemed agree to destroy forever the possibility of resurrection for those who are physically dead - at this point.

I have not yet recorded an audio/visual teaching on this subject, but there is a written study uploaded at my website: www.prophecyviewpoint.com, on the "Final Judgment - Lake of Fire."

Shalom

[JoeMo]

Hi 8DP,

In general, I really appreciate your posts. However, I have a question on this one.

Quote:

I understand the "great white throne" judgment and "lake of fire" somewhat differently from SDAs.

This judgment does not take place until AFTER the Gog-Magog rebellion, which battle does not take place until AFTER the last great resurrection of the 8th millennium

, which will be a resurrection of all those who could not make an informed decision for or against Christ as LORD during the first age, because they were immature, mentally disabled, or innocently ignorant.

I see it a little differently. By taking Revelation 20 literally and chronologically, I see events enfurling like this:

1.Satan is loosed at the end of the 7th Millenium

2. He gathers the nations - Gog and Magog - that exist at that time for the great war of God Almighty.

3. Fire comes down from heaven to destroy the nations; and Satan, the beast, and the false propphet are thrown into the lake of fire.

4. The Great White Throne and He who is seated upon it appear.

5. THEN the dead are raised; and the final judgement takes place.

I have no argument about who these dead are - you make a pretty airtight case against which I have no "good" rebuttal. I have never heard a better answer to "what happens to the people who never had a chance to know Christ". My questions revolve around who are the nations that comprise Gog and Magog prior to the resurrection at the dawn of the 8th millennium?

My other question is does it make sense to read Revelation 20 chronologically?

I will listen to your Final Judgement - Lake of Fire study later today.

Blessings,

JoeMo