Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

However, I understand that context does not include special resurrections for what we call "tear-jerker" cases.

Those "tear-jerker cases" number in the billions.

Shalom

That may be, but they are already accounted for in Christ. Every single one of them, down to the specific individual.

Christ says in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds".

The word "man" does not appear in the Greek, so it is supplied. The word for "every" is "hekastos", meaning "each, every".

Christ is crystal clear here: when Christ comes for the righteous at His Second Coming, each and every person's case is already decided and has a reward associated with them. Even for the billions of "tear-jerker" cases....

Hence, a theology to handle these cases is not necessary - God has already accounted for them in a perfect justice which evades most human wisdom. As I said before: When I read of the final scenes of humanity in Revelation 20:7-16, I do not see any place where those within either camp want to exchange their place - either in the saints (who have been with God already for 1,000 years), or with the wicked (who are being shown exactly where they have beaten back God's repeated entreaties to accept the redemption He has fully created for their eternal well-being).

Every person - including those we deem given the most unfair of dealt hands in this world - is where they want to be because that is where they have chosen to be.

Sorry to disappoint "some people", but the issue is already well-handled in God's justice system. I counsel people to prefer to look at the issue as God does, rather than by the feeble attempts by the human wisdom to find fault with the way God has planned events to unfold.

Blessings,

[8thdaypriest]

joeb,

I would say yes - that the Spirit of God does seek to influence every human being. But infants, children and the mentally disabled cannot respond very well - as far as altering behavior in response.

Some have been so damaged by their environment, or early treatment that they cannot respond to subtle (Spirit) influences.

Today millions of children have been born with damaged brains because their mothers were taking drugs. Some seem to have absolutely no control over mood swings, or emotional outbursts. Some seem to be without conscience.

But I think you are asking about adults who lived in cultures where the truths of God were unknown.

NAU Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, (Rom 2:14 NAU)

Here Paul seems to be speaking of Commandments 5 thru 9. The Gentiles (within their family or tribal, or nation groups) did for the most part, refrain from murder, incest, adultery, and stealing. Some honored parents as authority figures. Some even to the point of ancestor worship. They seem to have learned that those things were necessary to maintain any kind of peace. But that level of good-sense does not even come close to the selflessness of the missionaries and martyrs for the cause of Christ. And these groups worshiped heavenly bodies, and the sea, and rivers, and lots of other natural phenomena.

People quote John 1:9, to say that Christ reaches every one, but they do not quote the whole passage.

NAU John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:4 NAU)

Without some witness - to point to "the light" - men cannot comprehend. Only to those who received Him - who "believe in His name" - does He give the right to become children of God. This verse seems to say that some information is necessary before men can "get it." Without this information - they do not know where to direct their search, or their worship. Why send missionaries, if God can simply judge them based on their response to His spirit in the world?

Just another reason why I believe that Jesus will raise all of those who died in ignorance - at the 8th day - so that they can be given the information - the identity of the ONE to whom they owe allegiance, and worship. Then they will choose.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

Rachel

[Gibs]

Yes, the second resurrection is the second death that those of it have chosen. God left them free to choose and they chose to sin, disobey and the penalty was plainly laid out that death is the penalty for sin and disobedience.

God says and He is right!

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

We get what we ask for, life or death eternal.

Yes all have sinned exception, Jesus Christ and would have to die but He, Yah, made a way of redemption.

At true Repentance and being born anew of His Spirit we then can walk as our Redeemer walked on this earth, none have an excuse not to be able when He truly is dwelling within.

We begin that walk after being born again a new man or woman controlled of His Spirit and must remain dead of the old governance of self and self gratification.

We still could not be saved from the penalty of our sin, but for His Merits and White Robe being Imputed to us, credited if you will of His Righteousness in place of our sin.

There is not a single one who could not have thus been covered, it is our choosing and so it is us who do that.

Choose ye this day who you will be of.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Yes those of the second resurrection will all be consumed completely and the spirit of life in them returns unto God who gave it

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

8thday,

Paul has much more to say on the subject than that which you quoted.

Quote:

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

You also forgot to include Romans 2:15 along with verse 14.

Quote:

Romans 2: 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

God has written His law in the hearts of all who will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I don't want to argue this with you. I just wanted to point these things out because I think you've created an unnecessary theology trying to cover that which the Bible shows us has already been taken care of by God in His love, mercy and justice.

This is why there is no need for another "chance". God has already taken care of all that is necessary. And, since His

"books" will be open to all of us to see why all things will be as they are I see your theology as something that's trying to deal with an issue that's God has already dealt with.

[8thdaypriest]

We can agree to disagree.

[Ted Oplinger]

I know you are posting in answer to JoeB, Rachel, but your reply sets off so many so red flag-type questions I must respond. The issue is one which is quite intimate to me.

I would say yes - that the Spirit of God does seek to influence every human being. But infants, children and the mentally disabled cannot respond very well - as far as altering behavior in response. Some have been so damaged by their environment, or early treatment that they cannot respond to subtle (Spirit) influences. Today millions of children have been born with damaged brains because their mothers were taking drugs. Some seem to have absolutely no control over mood swings, or emotional outbursts. Some seem to be without conscience.

[Ted Oplinger]

We can agree to disagree.

After my last post, I would gather we must also agree to disagree, Rachel.

Blessings,

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

I would say yes - that the Spirit of God does seek to influence every human being. But infants, children and the mentally disabled cannot respond very well - as far as altering behavior in response. Some have been so damaged by their environment, or early treatment that they cannot respond to subtle (Spirit) influences. Today millions of children have been born with damaged brains because their mothers were taking drugs. Some seem to have absolutely no control over mood swings, or emotional outbursts. Some seem to be without conscience.

Are you telling me an omniscient, omnipotent God is powerless and without skill to be able to communicate to the most damaged of brains? The One who forms both the brain and the tongue, cannot speak in ways unknown to human science and reason to those He knowns are born in the most disadvantaged of circumstance, with the only testimony these will ever be able to grasp?

Are you telling me God has not taken EVERY circumstance into account when He sends Christ to render to each person as they have chosen at the second Coming?

The circumstances you mention of today's age, have they not been observed throughout human history? Wars, disease, lack of education all in contribution? And Christ, our Second Adam, has not accounted for these when He says in the Gospel of John (John 5:29) that ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - into one or the other resurrection? The word "ALL" is quite inclusive of even the cases your are citing, Rachel.

I would be very careful limiting God in such a way...

My thoughts exactly Ted.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Are you telling me an omniscient, omnipotent God is powerless and without skill to be able to communicate to the most damaged of brains? The One who forms both the brain and the tongue, cannot speak in ways unknown to human science and reason to those He knowns are born in the most disadvantaged of circumstance, with the only testimony these will ever be able to grasp?

This is an interesting question, as it seems to fly in the face of EG White's statement about slaves not being taken to heaven due to their "ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible..." Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193

Can't really have it both ways, can we?

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

Are you telling me an omniscient, omnipotent God is powerless and without skill to be able to communicate to the most damaged of brains? The One who forms both the brain and the tongue, cannot speak in ways unknown to human science and reason to those He knowns are born in the most disadvantaged of circumstance, with the only testimony these will ever be able to grasp?

This is an interesting question, as it seems to fly in the face of EG White's statement about slaves not being taken to heaven due to their "ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible..." Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193

Can't really have it both ways, can we?

That's true, Pam - it can't run both ways.

It's those pesky "ALL" verses in God's Word, coupled with with a reasonable expectation of what omnipotent and omniscient means, that trigger such questions.

I do wonder, though, if it is quoting EGW verbatim like that is the reason some would read such things as a third special resurrection just for such cases, as on its face, the EGW quote appears so fraught with injustice.

Blessings,

[joeb]

Quote:

Are you telling me an omniscient, omnipotent God is powerless and without skill to be able to communicate to the most damaged of brains? The One who forms both the brain and the tongue, cannot speak in ways unknown to human science and reason to those He knowns are born in the most disadvantaged of circumstance, with the only testimony these will ever be able to grasp?

This is an interesting question, as it seems to fly in the face of EG White's statement about slaves not being taken to heaven due to their "ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible..." Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193

Can't really have it both ways, can we?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

what's the difference of a slave not knowing anything of God and a brain-damaged individual not knowing anything of God? why would one person, regardless of station or infirmity, be counted by God "as though he had not been"?

[JoeMo]

It has been a while since I have been here; and I've only read the posts from the last 3 days. I will make some general comments here; and I apologize in advance if I am repeating stuff others have said; or I sound a little weird, cuz I may wax charismatic on you.

I am convinced that somehow, I "tuned in" in the voice of the Holy Spirit about 5 years ago. Not in an EGW kind of way, I just "practiced" it; and it started to work. Is everything I think God says to me is "truth? No; some of it is my imagination. That being said; when I was studying Revelation 20, this "Voice" asked me why the resurrection according to their deeds at the end of the millennium couldn't be a judgement of their deeds after they had received an accurate view of who God really was. I never studied it out; but the concept stayed with me.

Here comes Rachel, codifying via scripture something I thought the Spirit may have told me; and it struck a chord. I went to her website www.prophecyviewpoint.net and listened to/watched some of her presentations. I was stunned. Her study more or less confirmed an opinion I had been forming for over a year. If you all are simply responding to her posts, I would suggest going to her website and listening to some of the studies that expand what she has posted here.

I'm not saying that I swallow everything she says hook, line, and sinker; but I don't accept anything anyone (including EGW) has to say unless I can prove it out to myself. Rachel provides a viable scripturally-based alternative to the prevailing fundamentalist viewpoint. Her posts and studies have given me viable scriptural answers to questions I have long asked myself.

Ted, you know how much I respect you. You are one of the most logical, well-read people on this forum (don't let it go to your head - a lot of people thing I'm a little off-center for an SDA). I don't agree with everything you say either; but you present everything so well! You have given a balanced rebuttal to Rachel's posts without being disrespectful. That is what I admire most about you.

But again I suggest, before you blow Rachel off, give her website a try. You may be surprised at what you might learn.

[JoeMo]

One more thing - I don't know if you agree with me; but nothing we are discussing on this thread is a salvational issue. We are having a good discussion on things we feel strongly about. But outside of a few basic principles ( like Jesus is who He says He is, did what He said he did, and will do what He said He will do), the gospel isn't as complicated as the stuff we are discussing here.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, you know how much I respect you. You are one of the most logical, well-read people on this forum (don't let it go to your head - a lot of people thing I'm a little off-center for an SDA).

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks to all.

I like to see what the objections are - from Scripture - to see if I HAVE covered everything at my website, or if there is a loose end that can't be tucked.

RE: "all" in John 5:28-29.

KJV John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Ted, you emphasized the "all" and I'm saying what about "the hour." I think He was saying they all come up at the same time. That would agree with Daniel 12:2-3. "At that time" some are raised to "everlasting life" and others to "everlasting condemnation." (You don't come back from everlasting condemnation. A name blotted out of the book, isn't written back in.)

The ones to be raised at "the hour" have either "done good" or "done evil." But that leaves a lot of people who's "sins" are still covered BECAUSE they were done in ignorance. Didn't Jesus say, "If you were blind (meaning unintentionally ignorant) - you would have no sin" ?

SEE - there's more than one way to understand that verse - which means that it is NOT a proof text, without a lot of backup.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm not sure WHY you keep saying that I believe in a "third resurrection."

The resurrection at the Second Coming seems to be called "the first resurrection" in Rev. 20:5.

I say that because there WAS a resurrection back when Christ rose from the dead (Matt. 27:52-53). And I believe those people became the 24 Elders, now before the throne of God in heaven. And they say themselves that they are being prepared to be priests.

I do understand that "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected 1000 years later at the start of the 8th millennium. So that would be the "second" and LAST resurrection.

SDAs believe that those raised "second" are all of the wicked (lost) from the first 6000 years. I disagree with that view. I think the (knowingly) wicked from the first 6000 years will be dealt with at the Second Coming. They don't need to be raised again - ever.

I do NOT believe the lost are raised again. I do NOT believe that they are conscious at the final "great white throne" judgment. They are DEAD - not alive - therefore not conscious. They are "standing before God" only in the sense of the record of their "works" NOT in physical form, or as souls, or whatever form. They are still in "Sheol" - the abode of the dead. That is why - when Sheol is throne into the lake of fire, all that remains of "the dead" is forever destroyed.

It is God's download from their minds, His retained memory of them, that is thrown in to the fire and destroyed.

The question being asked is whether they should ever be resurrected again. The answer from the humans looking at "the books" will be "NO."

So - no third resurrection.

The SDAs view Gog-Magog as the final "lake of fire" and I do NOT think they are the same.

I know that disagrees with published EGW, so I should say here that I believe she received visions, but I do not believe that she always had the gift of interpretation.

I think she, and the early church elders got some of them WRONG.

THERE - now you can throw out everything I say because it doesn't agree with EGW.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I believe she received visions, but I do not believe that she always had the gift of interpretation.

I think she, and the early church elders got some of them WRONG.

Exactly, Rachel! You took the words right out of my mouth.

[8thdaypriest]

WHO ARE "THE REST OF THE DEAD". ??

That's the question.

Fundamentalist SDA says they are the wicked from the first 6000 years.

I say they are those who lived and died in ignorance (from whatever cause).

Someone here called my belief a "special resurrection for special cases." I don't think so. It will be the most massive resurrection of all time. Billions of people - in the four corners of the earth.

I personally believe this first age is about calling the priesthood. Those who hear the call and respond, and remain faithful WILL BECOME "PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST." They will "reign on the earth." They will "rule the nations." That is all in Revelation.

These priests (Israel redeemed) will be what God originally intended that Israel should be, a witness to "the nations."

Now - if the fulfillment follows the type - then they CANNOT SERVE, as priests, until "the 8th day." Their consecration will not be complete until then.

And "the rest of the dead" do not "live again" until the 8th day -

so put those two together. And you have Israel - serving as priests - FOR the resurrected "nations."

And no - these priests are NOT all DNA descendants of Jacob. They are Faith Israel.

Here's a verse for you. What do you make of it? NOTE: If they get a "double portion in the land" then they are NOT Levite priests.

NKJ Isaiah 61:4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. 5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, And the sons of the foreigner Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD, They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. 7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. 8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant. 9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed." (Isa 61:4 NKJ)

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Rachel

[8thdaypriest]

If God in His omnipotence can simply reach any person regardless of their mental condition, maturity, or learning - then

WHY send out missionaries to teach them ??????

WHY not simply judge them based on their reception of the Spirit's influence ?

Christ said,

KJV Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So everyone, from all nations must HEAR the message of the gospel.

But millions have died without hearing it.

Maybe "the end" He spoke of refers to THE end of the sin problem - forever - not simply the Second Coming.

I believe "the rest of the dead" from "the nations" will HEAR the gospel witness - and THEN the END (Lake of Fire) will come.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Ted Oplinger]

If God in His omnipotence can simply reach any person regardless of their mental condition, maturity, or learning - then

WHY send out missionaries to teach them ??????

WHY not simply judge them based on their reception of the Spirit's influence ?

Christ said,

KJV Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So everyone, from all nations must HEAR the message of the gospel.

But millions have died without hearing it.

Maybe "the end" He spoke of refers to THE end of the sin problem - forever - not simply the Second Coming.

I believe "the rest of the dead" from "the nations" will HEAR the gospel witness - and THEN the END (Lake of Fire) will come.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

Why send out missionaries to teach them? To integrate the church into His work of redemption - demonstrations of His power to save and conquer sin.

But for literally billions throughout history, God has used His omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience to reach people. Allow me to illustrate.

Revelation 5:9 contains a particular phrase which is extremely profound, which I will put in bold:

"And they sang a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the scroll, and open its seals, for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,'"

Now - consider the scope of those words across all time. I think of the Native American and South Central Asian tribes whose ttongues and peoples rose and fell before Christ walked this earth...there were no missionaries sent to bring them the pre-Cross Gospel, were there? Even so, they will have representatives there. Some native tribes were practically animalistic in the way they acted toward each other and with others; even within that environment, God will have examples of His power to save, so that the rest will have no excuse.

Languages which died out before Christ...will have representatives in heaven.

Zechariah 13:6 alludes to people who have never heard the Gospel, where it says "And one will say to him, what are these wounds between your arms? And he will answer, 'those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends'". Imagine that - so many people who had never heard the story of the Cross, and staring with wonder at the wound scars Christ will bear for eternity - these will be in heaven.

Romans 2:14 speaks of Gentiles, not having the Law (ie, not having a witness to go by) by nature do the things of the Law, demonstrate the Law written on their hearts.

All of this as evidence that in addition to sending out His people, He continues to work upon every human heart, no matter where they are, no matter what their circumstance.

These are but a partial listing of Scriptural verses demonstrating God's power to reach to the uttermost, no matter where they are, no matter how low or disadvantaged they are. I celebrate it!

Food for thought, and blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

Zechariah 13:6 alludes to people who have never heard the Gospel, where it says "And one will say to him, what are these wounds between your arms? And he will answer, 'those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends'". Imagine that - so many people who had never heard the story of the Cross, and staring with wonder at the wound scars Christ will bear for eternity - these will be in heaven.

Romans 2:14 speaks of Gentiles, not having the Law (ie, not having a witness to go by) by nature do the things of the Law, demonstrate the Law written on their hearts.

I believe Zechariah 13:6 will take place during "the 8th day" AFTER peoples from past millennia have been resurrected and are learning "His ways."

In Romans 2:14, Paul is arguing for the existence of God, who designed and created all things. His "laws" show a pattern, which implies design. He says the Gentiles do by nature - "by instinct" - some of the things that were written in the Law. Well - animals show many beneficial instinctive behaviors. That doesn't mean they have chosen Christ as Savior and King.

[8thdaypriest]

"And they sang a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the scroll, and open its seals, for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,'"

Now - consider the scope of those words across all time. I think of the Native American and South Central Asian tribes whose ttongues and peoples rose and fell before Christ walked this earth...there were no missionaries sent to bring them the pre-Cross Gospel, were there? Even so, they will have representatives there. Some native tribes were practically animalistic in the way they acted toward each other and with others; even within that environment, God will have examples of His power to save, so that the rest will have no excuse.

Languages which died out before Christ...will have representatives in heaven.

I remember in a video series about the Sabbath. There was an account of an Eskimo chief, who was visited by an angel. The angel told him about the Great Father and His Son, and also told him about the Sabbath. When the missionaries reached that tribe, many years later, they were amazed to find them keeping the Sabbath. What I found interesting is that they called God the Father, Grandfather.

Ted,

I believe that the Son of God HAS reached individuals within EVERY nation, kindred, tongue and people - but NOT every individual. He needs persons from every group to send back as witnesses - as priests - to those groups - after the 8th day resurrection.

Isaiah 66:18-21 [After the destruction of v. 15-17] “For I know their works and their thoughts: the time cometh, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send such as escape of them [those raised first] unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah, as the children of Israel bring their oblation in a clean vessel into the house of Jehovah. And of them also will I take for priests and for Levites, saith Jehovah.” (ASV)

WOW!! He will gather all nations and tongues. Then He will set a sign among them - redeemed Israel restored. Human beings with spiritual bodies, ruling with Christ - now that WILL be a sign!

Those who “escape” the destruction and judgment at the Second Coming, the LORD will send back as “a sign” (witnesses) to the nations who have never heard of HIM. These witnesses will then bring many “brethren” to Christ. They will be offered to Christ - like an offering - as “spiritual sacrifices.” And He will even take some of them for priests. Wow!!

Imagine being sent to your grandparents, 30 generations back - to tell them about Jesus.

(Also compare Zechariah 3:7-8: The “companions who sit before” Joshua the High Priest, will be “a wondrous sign.”)

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

There were soooooo many passages that mystified me, before I came to understand "the 8th day."

THE EVIL NEIGHBORS - ALSO RETURNED - TO THEIR LANDS

Jeremiah 12:14 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israel to inherit–behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them. THEN it shall be, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them and bring them back, everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it shall be, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, ‘As the LORD lives,’ . . . then they shall be established in the midst of My people.’”

This one is an absolute bombshell! The evil neighbors of Israel will be plucked out, and then later returned to their lands - EVERY ONE OF THEM. If they will learn the ways of Israel and the LORD, then “they will be established in the midst of my people.”

THE MIXED MULTITUDE - A PROPHECY

A “greater exodus” suggests other parallels. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt, a large number of mixed blood and other slave peoples came out with them, following Moses into the wilderness. These people sojourned with Israel. They heard the LORD speak. They understood the LAW. They were the first to complain. They were first to return to idol worship (Exo. 12:28, Num. 11:4).

In the prophecies of the “nations” who are resurrected at The 8th Day, the picture is presented of a “mixed multitude.” They are living on the earth with Christ reigning from Jerusalem, with Israel brought back to the land, and just as in the first exodus, the mixed multitude (“the family of Egypt”) are the trouble-makers.

Zechariah 14:16-21 “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left [ the redeemed] of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [We will be keeping the Feasts!] And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth [raised at The 8th Day] do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain [Holy Spirit]; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

Here we have the scene - AFTER the Great Day of the LORD - AFTER the 7th millennium. It is The 8th Day - The Kingdom of Messiah. “Everyone who is left”- will go up to worship the King. All the nations are invited to come up to Jerusalem, to worship the LORD. Some will come up - others will refuse. The term “family of Egypt” refers, I believe, to this future “mixed multitude” - all of those whose hearts are still in Egypt - still loving their idols, their sin and their Pharoah (Satan).

The LORD has “sent” His “signposts” to the nations, to help them find their way. From every nation, kindred, and language those raised in the “first resurrection” have been sent back to their kindred, to witness for Christ.

NOTE: “The nations” (non-Israelites) are invited to go up to Jerusalem, to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Anciently, Gentiles were invited only to this Feast - not to Passover or Pentecost.

NOTE: The Water Ceremony, performed during the Feast of Tabernacles WAS a prayer for rain. In Scripture, water always represents the Holy Spirit. Those of the nations who will “not come up,” will not receive this outpouring of the Spirit - and they will be deceived by Satan. They are called “the family of Egypt.” Rebellion will boil over in the Gog-Magog Battle.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

Rachel

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

I believe that the Son of God HAS reached individuals within EVERY nation, kindred, tongue and people - but NOT every individual. He needs persons from every group to send back as witnesses - as priests - to those groups - after the 8th day resurrection.

It is sad to me you are willing to so shorten the hand of God. Your theology is fraught with all kinds of legal inconsistencies which makes God's justice appear more like human justice, with all its imperfections.

If God is inconsistent in redemption/salvation issues with even one human being - a slight better effort to reach out to, a second chance, or a preferential treatment - then Satan wins His argument against God. No if's, and's, or but's about it. And Satan does his dirtiest to make certain there are all kinds of cases for these kinds of things to occur.

But, according to Romans 5, God wrapped everyone of the human race into Christ Jesus and made him a new Adam. Accordingly, how the Father treated his own Son is how every single person ever conceived (from Adam to the last generation) was treated. Christ's own participation in the human race and winning the victory over sin means all human beings ever conceived participated in that righteousness and victory. When Christ Jesus died, all the human race died with Him on the cross. When Christ Jesus rose from the grave, He brought with Him the entire human race.

The merits of that sacrifice are found applicable to every human being ever conceived, as they are all found in Christ Jesus.

Rachel, you never answered my question as to which default on God do you subscribe to - whether as looking at man as redeemed, until something is done to change that, or as lost, until something is done to change that.

I subscribe to the former - God views the human race as re-connected back to Himself, and allows individuals the free will to either accept/maintain that re-connection, or to throw it away in unbelief/distrust. One is saved and written in the Book of Life, until they declare to God they have no desire to have their names there. In short, a person must experience the world, learn to indulge sin in the flesh, and declare to God they would rather exchange sinfulness for having their names in the Book of Life, in order to be lost. And God's love and mercy makes certain it is a difficult process to do this, as He is not willing that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

That is the exact opposite way of God and salvation is typically viewed, but that is precisely what Jesus came here to live and be the example of God's love for. It is precisely how He treated people - particularly those deemed the worst of sinners He ministered to. It is why He told the Pharisees the well have no need of the physician - it is the sick; sickness is something we interrupts a default of life. When healed, the previously sick continue to live.

Hence, I subscribe to a God who is free to use all His power to reach individuals everywhere, throughout time, with whatever means He deems best fit to reach them with, because He so loved both the whole of the race AND each individual, He sent His Son to the cross for them. He so loved all peoples, from all places and all times, He wrapped them all up in Christ and connected all of them back to Himself.

In that scenario, every human being is under the same consistent standard. 2 Corinthians 5 says Christ died for all, so all died.

Trial and judgment for the human race was carried out in Eden. The sentence of death was imposed. This included all people everywhere, because all were present in Adam. Christ, before judgment was declared, stepped in as our new Adam, and took Adam and Eve into Himself, and allowed judgment and the sentence to fall upon Himself.

Sentence was carried out on a cross at Calvary. As the wrath of God was poured out upon sin as it was placed upon Jesus, Adam and Eve (and thus, all who would descend from them) were there in Him, suffering the same wrath, dying the same death. Adam and even were in Christ when He lay in the grave. Adam and Eve were in Christ when He rose triumphantly from the grave. That is why Christ says ALL will live again, and their choice puts them in one of only two resurrections which pivot around one event - Christ's Second Coming.

Because of this, Adam passed on two legacies to each person - accept the re-connection back to God (because God says it happened), or don't believe God and accept the legacy of death (because Satan points to his world, his rules, and a person's flesh to say the re-connect by God to Himself never happened, or doesn't happen without human hoops to jump through in sinful flesh). It is a free will choice.

Thus, I see no need for a special "8th day resurrection" for all the disadvantaged...because such subscribes to a default that they are lost until they do something about it. In Christ, the default is the opposite, and it offends human pride because human pride wants to contribute to a gift of God's grace - even if it is but the human capacity to choose - but cannot do so. We can only accept the gift of re-connection, or throw it away. That is why the free gift is different from the legacy of sin. We can't throw away decay and death, but we can throw away the gift of a re-connection which is based upon God fulfilling His promise.

God knows which of the disadvantaged have remained re-connected, and which have not, for I believe God reaches these in ways more intimate than we admit or understand. I believe it offends human pride to suggest God can by-pass the "normal" witness/ministrations and reach as many individuals as He sees necessary with the choice - particularly when people try to set up conditions in God's Word and force God into those little boxes

More food for thought.