Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[joeb]

If God in His omnipotence can simply reach any person regardless of their mental condition, maturity, or learning - then

WHY send out missionaries to teach them ??????

WHY not simply judge them based on their reception of the Spirit's influence ?

Christ said,

KJV Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So everyone, from all nations must HEAR the message of the gospel.

But millions have died without hearing it.

Maybe "the end" He spoke of refers to THE end of the sin problem - forever - not simply the Second Coming.

I believe "the rest of the dead" from "the nations" will HEAR the gospel witness - and THEN the END (Lake of Fire) will come.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

1. Because God has chosen to use human beings in the plan of salvation.

2. Because getting humans involved in working for others teaches us dependency on God, love for others, and humility.

3. We lose sight of ourselves in working for others, and losing sight of self is a must for the Christian. God cannot change us until that happens to us.

[Felix Florimon]

what's the difference of a slave not knowing anything of God and a brain-damaged individual not knowing anything of God? why would one person, regardless of station or infirmity, be counted by God "as though he had not been"?

I truly feel that if God is truly Omniscient and Almighty then a "third resurrection" would be a real waste of time and resources for those who are resurrected in order to have "a second chance." Now, regarding be counted by God "as though he had not been:" Let me put it this way: If my father and my mother had died when both of them were so young that they were not able to engage in any kind of reproductive behavior, could I have been destined "to be rescheduled" to be born many years later from different parents and with a different color of eyes, different nose shape and with an ability to grow to a different height? I truly feel than an Omniscient God has the ability to feel how our own individual sense of consciousness will feel from the moment we are conceived to the moment that we are fully mature individuals. Now comes the question: If it is true that there are other inhabited worlds where sin did not enter but have the ability to procreate, what impediment would be for those have been counted "as though they had not been" to really "be rescheduled" or "re-assigned" to be born again with a non sinful nature, like those who will appear into existence many thousands of years later who truly never existed before?

FF

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, you never answered my question as to which default on God do you subscribe to - whether as looking at man as redeemed, until something is done to change that, or as lost, until something is done to change that.

Getting into some deep waters here.

Guess I would have to talk about the Book of Life.

Were names written in the book of life before the earth was even created,

OR at the creation of Adam,

OR when the LORD promised a way back, after Eve/Adam sinned

OR at the death of Christ

OR Is a person's name written in when he/she is born (or maybe conceived)

OR Is a person's name written in when he/she enters into covenant with God thru Christ????

Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Why rejoice - if your name was entered into the Book of Life at the moment of your birth, along with every other human being? The presence of your name - in the book - would be nothing special. This is why I believe that our names are entered into The Book of Life when we enter into covenant.

Philippians 4:3 “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.” Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.”

Just before the return of Christ in glory, names will be blotted out of The Book of Life. These are lost forever.

Hebrews 12:22-23 [speaking to NT believers] “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . .”

Who are registered? The “firstborn” are “registered in heaven”. God called Israel His “firstborn” (Exo. 4:22). How do you become an Israelite? You enter into covenant with God thru Christ, and he then will circumcised your heart.

Revelation 13:8 “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [the Beast] whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

So - here is what I believe:

1. One’s name is entered into The Book of Life, when one enters into covenant with God thru Christ. He or she, then becomes an Israelite - “grafted in” thru Christ.

2. One’s name will be blotted out - by Christ Himself - if he or she has forsaken that covenant without repentance.

Always remember - so long as life one lives,

he or she may repent and return to covenant.

NOTE: Anciently, the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was judgment day for Israelites and for the mixed multitude (Lev. 23:29). I believe that Christ will return on Yom Kippur, for judgment!

3. Some names were never entered into The Book, for one of two reasons:

a. Those persons consciously refused to enter into covenant. These will be resurrected, judged and then left to destruction at the Second Coming.

b. Those persons were ignorant of Yahweh.

I believe these people will be raised to continue their lives at The 8th Day, when they will be invited to enter into covenant.

So to answer your question: Each person is unsaved (not in the book) UNTIL he/she encounters Christ, and asks to belong to Him (enters into covenant).

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

Ashes vs corpses

"For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 4:1-3)

Peter describes "the day of the LORD" (the Second Coming) in which the heaven and the earth will be burned up.

When the redeemed (priests of God and of Christ) return to the earth AFTER the 7th millennium, they will indeed walk upon the ashes of the wicked who were "burned up" at the Second Coming.

That does not eliminate the possibility that, after the Gog-Magog Battle - the redeemed will indeed "look upon the corpses" of those killed in THAT battle.

NKJ Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:22 NKJ)

These two passages COULD be talking about TWO different events.

The audio teaching on "Gog and Magog" is now loaded at my website.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Gustave]

Quote:

Are you telling me an omniscient, omnipotent God is powerless and without skill to be able to communicate to the most damaged of brains? The One who forms both the brain and the tongue, cannot speak in ways unknown to human science and reason to those He knowns are born in the most disadvantaged of circumstance, with the only testimony these will ever be able to grasp?

This is an interesting question, as it seems to fly in the face of EG White's statement about slaves not being taken to heaven due to their "ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible..." Gifts, vol. 1, p. 193

Can't really have it both ways, can we?

Ellen White made the comment about slaves not going to heaven....

...In the context of her belief that they were ape / human hybrids.

...Something that was believed by scores of people at that time.

In Scripture, the 2nd death is that death of which there is no future hope for life....

...The individual who experiences the 2nd Death is "cut off" from God, eternally.

In Arian circles the 2nd death is used to aid in the emasculation of Christ...

...By claiming that Christ participated in it.

[Felix Florimon]

Ellen White made the comment about slaves not going to heaven....

...In the context of her belief that they were ape / human hybrids.

...Something that was believed by scores of people at that time.

In Scripture, the 2nd death is that death of which there is no future hope for life....

...The individual who experiences the 2nd Death is "cut off" from God, eternally.

In Arian circles the 2nd death is used to aid in the emasculation of Christ...

...By claiming that Christ participated in it.

False beliefs of people about others does only change people's attitude toward them but it does not change God's plan of salvation.

FF

[8thdaypriest]

Here's another "interesting" quotation from Early Writings pg.17-19. I will just put the highlights.

"With Jesus at our head we all descended from the city down to this earth, ... Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city. ... As we were traveling along, we met a company who also were gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were. He said they were martyrs that had been slain for Him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they also had a him of red on their garments. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly, to the top of the mountains and pluck the never fading flowers. ... As we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, 'only the 144,000 enter this place,' ... I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold."

Had to get a ladder to find Early Writings. Been a very long time.

OK - If the "little ones" died during the first 6000 years, and were resurrected at the Second Coming - WHY are they still children AFTER 1000 years???

MAYBE - JUST MAYBE - they were resurrected as part of "the rest of the dead" and THAT is why they are still "little ones."

There IS the possibility that they will STAY "little ones" for all eternity - but it says in Isa. that they will "grow up as well fed calves."

Isa. 11 puts the "little child" and "the nursing child" and "the weaned child" in the same kingdom where the wolf dwells with the lamb, and the leopard with the young goat, and the cow and the bear graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

I personally do NOT believe that conception will continue in the future Kingdom. EVERY thing associated with human reproduction rendered one "unclean" (in the Law of Moses). If conception were continued - there would be no END to sin or death, as each new generation would be allowed the possibility of sinning.

I personally believe the 144,000 (first fruits) will be those raised "first." They will become priests, which is WHY Mrs. White saw their names engraved in the Temple, and WHY only they could "enter there." Only priests could enter the first Sanctuary/Temple.

FYI - there is absolutely NO Ellen White quoting at my website. It is for everyone - not just SDAs.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

Non-Israelites were called "aliens," "strangers," "foreigners," "the nations," "Gentiles."

The following is a partial list of passages which include non-Israelites, living in the land with Israel returned. I have found no other explanation for all of these non-Israelite Gentiles living with Israel (healed, cleansed, returned and restored) other than the "8th Day" resurrection which I have described here.

While I DO believe that the majority of those raised at the 8th millennium (the rest of the dead) will rebel and will be destroyed at Gog-Magog, I DO NOT believe that they will ALL be destroyed. Some will "learn His ways."

NOTE: In my view, the rebellious wicked are all destroyed at the Second Coming. They are NOT raised again after the 1000 years. Those raised AFTER the 1000 years are all of those who lived in ignorance during the first 6000 years.

Isaiah 11:1-10 The “Rod from the stem of Jesse” will slay the wicked [at the Second Coming]. Then “the wolf will dwell with the lamb” and “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD.” This “root of Jesse” [Messiah] will “stand as a banner to the people;” and “the Gentiles will seek Him.”

Isaiah 14:1 “For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.”

Jeremiah Chapter 33:7-18 “And I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return, and will rebuild those places as at the first.” They will be “a name of joy, a praise, and an honor before all nations of the earth, who shall hear all the good that I do to them; they shall fear and tremble.” A descendant of David will reign, and “execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”

Ezekiel 36:33-36 “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. So they will say,`This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

Ezekiel 36:33-36 “. . . On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities I will also enable you to dwell in the cities and the ruins shall be rebuilt” (v.33). “Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate” (v.36).

Isaiah 66:18-21 [After the destruction of v. 15-17] “For I know their works and their thoughts: the time cometh, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send such as escape of them [those raised first] unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah, as the children of Israel bring their oblation in a clean vessel into the house of Jehovah. And of them also will I take for priests and for Levites, saith Jehovah.” (ASV)

Ezekiel 28:25-26 “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the site of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob.”

Ezekiel 37:15-27 The LORD will gather the children of Israel. Judah and Israel will be joined into one kingdom - never to be separated again, with one King - from the line of David (v.24). The Lord will then make an everlasting covenant of peace with those He has gathered (v.26). “My tabernacle also shall be with them; . . . The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, WHEN My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Ezekiel 20:40-44 “All the house of Israel” - “all of them in the land” will serve the LORD GOD “on My holy mountain” (v.40). “I will accept you as a sweet aroma” (v.41). “I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles” (v.41).

Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

Micah 4:1-2 “Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, ‘Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

Amos 9:11-12 “‘On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ Says the LORD who does this thing.”

Zechariah 2:11 “Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.”

Jeremiah 16:19-21 [Verses 14-15 describe the promised return of Israel to the land.] “The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth . . .” “I will cause them to know My hand and My might; and they shall know that My name is the LORD.”

Zechariah 8:20-23 “Peoples shall yet come, inhabitants of many cities; The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, and seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also.’ Yes, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, [Christ] saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Zec 14:16 KJV)

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Felix Florimon]

Here's another "interesting" quotation from Early Writings pg.17-19. I will just put the highlights.

"With Jesus at our head we all descended from the city down to this earth, ... Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city. ... As we were traveling along, we met a company who also were gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were. He said they were martyrs that had been slain for Him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they also had a him of red on their garments. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly, to the top of the mountains and pluck the never fading flowers. ... As we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, 'only the 144,000 enter this place,' ... I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold."

Had to get a ladder to find Early Writings. Been a very long time.

OK - If the "little ones" died during the first 6000 years, and were resurrected at the Second Coming - WHY are they still children AFTER 1000 years???

MAYBE - JUST MAYBE - they were resurrected as part of "the rest of the dead" and THAT is why they are still "little ones."

There IS the possibility that they will STAY "little ones" for all eternity - but it says in Isa. that they will "grow up as well fed calves."

[Gustave]

False beliefs of people about others does only change people's attitude toward them but it does not change God's plan of salvation.

This ape / human hybrid thing is one thing I'm willing to give Ellen White a pass on....

...It was, at that time, considered science - by the lower educated masses.

...Ellen was simply reflecting in her religious teachings that which was accepted as fact.

As for the 2nd death, Scripture attests it ONLY is reserved for the lost....

...Of course Arian groups maintain Christ experienced it.

[8thdaypriest]

Where - in Scripture - does it say that "the rest of the dead" are all of the rebellious wicked from the first 6000 years?

To me - it sure looks like the rebellious wicked are raised to judgment and destroyed (physically) at the Second Coming.

I grant that those of the Gog-Magog army ARE wicked, but that does not preclude the possibility that some from "the rest of the dead" will "learn His ways" and commit to Christ BEFORE that battle.

I DO NOT equate the destruction at the Gog-Magog Battle with "the second death."

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

I didn't mean to PROVE anything using an EGW quote. I was just thinking - HOW INTERESTING that she reporting seeing children - with wings - in the New Earth. (So, we are going to become a new species?)

And yes - I agree that other writings from EGW show that she believed that the Gog-Magog Battle will be the "second death" for every human being, from all of human history, who is not redeemed.

I think that - IF she was a prophet of God and received visions - her writings and her beliefs were heavily influenced by the science, and culture of her day, and the Bible studies of the men around her.

I would NEVER seek to prove any tenant of my faith, using the writings of Ellen White.

I am very strictly - sola Scriptura.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

Felix Floriman said that a new 8th millennium neither fits with the writings of Paul, John, Peter or James; it does neither fit in with Jesus' teachings according to Matthew, Mark or Luke.

I would say - prove it - from Scripture.

Because I believe it DOES FIT. It was PETER who wrote, "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" (2Pe 3:8 NIV).

The 8th millennium would then be "the 8th day" - which figured prominently in the types of the Sanctuary prophecy.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[joeb]

This ape / human hybrid thing is one thing I'm willing to give Ellen White a pass on....

...It was, at that time, considered science - by the lower educated masses.

...Ellen was simply reflecting in her religious teachings that which was accepted as fact.

As for the 2nd death, Scripture attests it ONLY is reserved for the lost....

...Of course Arian groups maintain Christ experienced it.

You're going to have to post the quote that proves Ellen White thought any human being was a human/ape hybrid. Assertions without support have no validity whatsoever.

[phkrause]

You're going to have to post the quote that proves Ellen White thought any human being was a human/ape hybrid. Assertions without support have no validity whatsoever.

I'm with you joeb

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: joeb

You're going to have to post the quote that proves Ellen White thought any human being was a human/ape hybrid. Assertions without support have no validity whatsoever.

I'm with you joeb

X2

[JoeMo]

Quote:

If God in His omnipotence can simply reach any person regardless of their mental condition, maturity, or learning - then

WHY send out missionaries to teach them ??????

Couldn't we ask the same question about the present age? If God can reach every mind regardless of it's condition or location, why does the church need to send out missionaries?

ANSWER: Because we are in Christ and He is in us. He doesn't just want us to sit around watching Him do it all. We are rulers WITH Christ. He wants us to participate with him. We are (and will be) his ambassadors - His letters of love to the universe.

[JoeMo]

RE: Posts #658269,658467,658515 on this thread:

You make very good points, using great scripture references, Rachel. Like you, I haven't dusted off my EGW books in a long time. I'm reading them again. I'll tell you later whether or not I'm thankful for that motivation

Thank you for studying out ideas that have been dancing around in my mind for a long time. The God and the future you propose (IMO backed up by scripture) answer a lot of questions for me that no one else has ever answered satisfactorily. I really like your balance and your open, inquisitive mind and your non-judgmental nature in light of some of the resistance you are getting.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

This ape / human hybrid thing is one thing I'm willing to give Ellen White a pass on....

...It was, at that time, considered science - by the lower educated masses.

...Ellen was simply reflecting in her religious teachings that which was accepted as fact.

As for the 2nd death, Scripture attests it ONLY is reserved for the lost....

...Of course Arian groups maintain Christ experienced it.

You're going to have to post the quote that proves Ellen White thought any human being was a human/ape hybrid. Assertions without support have no validity whatsoever.

Seventh-day Adventist Review & Herald

Page 2

Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 1, page 78, was referred to and ridiculed by the Baptist minister. He said that what Sister White said about amalgamation of man and beast was utterly impossible. I referred him to Johnson's New Cyclopedia, pp. 1040, 1042, that he might learn for the first time, if he never knew it before, that " Allied species are capable, as a rule, of pairing and producing offspring; " and that, " under the influence of man, mongrel races readily arise and are indefinitely sustained,"—just exactly what Sister White says. The elder said her teachings were worse than Darwinism. But I showed that her teachings were correct (Lev, 18:23, 24), and that his were worse than nonsense.

Here is the URL for THAT...

...So you can read it "in context".

It's page 2 of:

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18781128-V52-22__B.pdf#view=fit

Note that after the SDA Apologists gloats that he stymied the Baptist Minister in his critical view of Ellen...

...The SDA Apologists quotes Lev 18,23!

Lev 18,23

Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Prior to THAT gem the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference voted on Smith's apologetic....

...Which was used to react to negative reactions outside the SDA Church.

...About Ellen's ape / human hybrid teaching.

General Conference of SDA resolution of Ape / human union.

Resolved, That we, the members of the General and Mich. State Conference, having heard a portion Of the manuscript read, which has been prepared by Bro. U. Smith, in answer to certain objections recently brought against the visions of Sister White, do hereby express our HEARTY approval of the same. Resolved, That we tender OUR thanks to Bro. Smith

for his able defense of the visions against the attacks

of their opponents."

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18660612-V28-02__B.pdf#view=fit

In that article that the General Conference speaks of Bro. U. Smith...

...Gloated that the Naturalists confirmed what Ellen White said was correct.

...I.E. that Great apes could indeed impregnate human females.

Unfortunately, this is EXACTLY what the "Naturalists" of that period and prior advocated as fact....

...One simply needs to read 10 minutes of history to confirm it.

Now, is that enough "support" for you Joeb & PKrause?

...I do have more if you would like to see it.

Also, Arian theological rubrics insist that Christ experienced the 2nd death.

The Victorian Ape Woman....

...As viewed and written about by Ellen White, U. Smith and James White.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Pastrana

Julia's Mother, it was said, had wondered into a mountain region devoid of humans...

...And was "sexually taken" by some type of Ape or possibly a Bear.

...The "confused fruit" of this un-natural union was Julia.

At this time many people believed in ape / human hybrids...

...This form of beastiality also found it's way into 'erotica' of the time period.

...Ellen was no exception.

[Gustave]

Pkrause & Joeb....

...Here is a video by some Evangelical Christians.

...Perhaps this Doctor commissioned by Stalin could have got some E.G.W. teachings?

[8thdaypriest]

Joemo

I did NOT mean to send anyone back to reading Ellen White. My feeling about her is that IF she WAS indeed given visions by the LORD, her writings were very much INFLUENCED over the years, by the culture and science of her day, and by the beliefs of the early church elders, who often pressured her to come up with more words from God.

I am very much "sola Scriptura".

That being said, I read even the English versions with a filter, realizing that the Catholics made changes, starting with Constantine.

I mention Matthew 28:19, because there is some good scholarly work strongly suggesting that the translation which Constantine authorized and paid for (The Byzantine) includes some changes.

The only surviving pre-Constantine Greek manuscripts all have the last portion of Matthew MISSING - with verse 28:19. There is ONE pre-Constantine Aramaic manuscript. In THAT manuscript, Matthew 28:19 reads "baptizing them in my name" - NOT "in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Other passages confirm that the disciples did exactly that - they baptized in His name - in the name of Jesus Christ. See: Acts 2:38, Acts 8;16, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5, Romans 6:3, I Cor 15:29 (Baptized for the dead one=Christ), and Gal. 3:27.

There was a great argument going on in 300AD about about the origin(or not)of Christ. Was He begotten, or created or had He always existed as an aspect or manifestation of God. Arius held that He was created by the Father. I do NOT agree with that. I believe that He was begotten "in the express image of" the Father. He was an exact copy (image) of the Father. An "image of" is a COPY of the original.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[joeb]

Gustave,

You're taking what someone else has said at face value without studying things out to see if they are true for yourself.

If you actually want to study the issue out for yourself I'll point you to a well-written rebuttal of what you've posted.

Go the following link and then follow the steps I give and it will take you to a reference work on this very subject.

https://egwwritings.org/

On the left side of the page is a tree-type menu. Click on the arrow to the left of the link entitled "Reference". When that opens up click on the arrow to the left of the link entitled "EGW Reference". When that opens up click on the link entitled "Amal-Amalgamation".

The above rebuttal aside, when everything that Ellen White wrote concerning black people is considered it's clear she thought of them as purely human people, and cared deeply about their plight during her time. She was not a white racist who detested or thought herself superior to black people. She advocated the allotment of a lot of resources toward the improving of the lot of blacks.

There are, in fact, people who believe Ellen White herself either black or a mulatto. I've never cared one way or the other about her racial background. All I've ever cared about is her expression of the love of the God for humanity in her writings.

[Gustave]

Gustave,

You're taking what someone else has said at face value without studying things out to see if they are true for yourself.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I did NOT mean to send anyone back to reading Ellen White

You didn't mean to, but my own curiosity pushed me there. I really don't mind it. I look at her in a much better light than I used to.

Quote:

IF she WAS indeed given visions by the LORD, her writings were very much INFLUENCED over the years, by the culture and science of her day, and by the beliefs of the early church elders, who often pressured her to come up with more words from God.

I agree. I also think she very well may have had legitimate visions; but interpreted them inaccurately due to the personal and cultural baggage she filtered the visions through.

I remain mystified by all the talk of a third resurrection.

You might enjoy the Jones and Waggoner thread out there. I downloaded the book last night and started reading it. Man! those guys were WAY ahead of their time!

[joeb]

I am more than prepared to discuss this with you Joeb...

...Would you like me to initiate a thread or would you like to start?

As you're convinced in your own mind I see no purpose. I'm not going to change my opinion, and you're not going to change yours, so what's the purpose? To argue? I think not. It has no appeal for me.