Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[8thdaypriest]

The EGW statement about the slave is correct concerning the slave (but not the master) IF you are talking about the first resurrection. That slave is not ready to enter upon the consecration for the priesthood. He has never CHOSEN Christ as LORD. His sins are those of ignorance which are automatically forgiven by Christ.

He will be one of "the rest of the dead" who will continue to sleep thru the 7th millennium, to be resurrected at the 8th millennium.

Those raised "first" - at the Second Coming - will become "priests of God and of Christ." What need for priests if no other human beings are coming to God??

As priests, they will teach the Law, judge, settle disputes, administer justice and offer up “spiritual sacrifices” (Deut. 17:8-11, Deut. 21:5, Deut. 33:8, Ezra 8:7-8, Eze. 44:23-24).

Exodus 19:5-6 [From Sinai to all Israel] "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”

I Peter 2:5, 9, 10 [speaking to believers after the resurrection.] “. . . you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ . . . you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation [israel], His own special people...”

Revelation 20:6 “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

Revelation 7:9, 13-14 The “great multitude” who “come out of great tribulation,” are “arrayed in white robes” [priestly garments] and “serve Him day and night in His temple.”

They will eat of the "hidden manna". That was the shewbread, which was eaten ONLY by the priests.

Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:9-10 The twenty four elders [presently in heaven] proclaim that Christ “has made us kings and priests to His God and Father.”

You Jesus “were slain”. . . “and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”

NOTE: These “priests” are redeemed from “every tribe, tongue, people and nation.” They are NOT all Hebrews, much less Levites ! (Rev. 5:9-10)

NOTE: The verbs here are in the Greek aorist tense, meaning that this is an ongoing process, not a completed fact. These 24 elders are being made (are being prepared to be) priests and kings. Notice where they will reign - “on the earth.” They are not reigning yet. Their consecration will not be complete until “the 8th day.”

Revelation 2:26 “And he who overcomes . . . to him I will give power over the nations – He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter’s vessels shall be broken to pieces.”

QUESTION: When will the redeemed rule the nations (non-Israelites) if the nations are simply raised to be judged and executed?? Ruling the nations, and reigning on the earth imply a period of time, during which this will be ongoing.

I don't want to put my whole study up here. It is at my website. It's titled "A Kingdom of Priests."

SDAs tend to come back with a quote from EGW and say that is the END of all discussion and study. I personally believe that Mrs. White did NOT understand a great many of her visions - like John - I'm sure - did not understand the visions he received. She and other leaders of her day put interpretations on them that made sense to them - at the time. I try to find JUST the account of the vision, and separate out any interpretations. When I do that - my understanding of the 8th day resurrection, is not inconsistent with those visions.

His word will not return to Him void. It WILL come to pass. He said we would be priests. We will be priests. And we will reign on the earth, and rule over the nations - as priests.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

It is most interesting to me that when anyone suggests an interpretation which does not seem to "fit" EGW published writings - it is immediately "of the Devil." That is elevating EGW higher than the Scriptures.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

believe "the rest of the dead" will be those who are NOT hardened in rebellion - because they did not have enough information, or mental maturity during their lives in the first age - to make those choices.

These will NOT be resurrected, or judged at the Second Coming. They will be raised to continue their lives on this earth, at the 8th millennium - when they will be taught by the "priests of God" and will then choose whom they will serve.

"Second Chance theology" is down right a doctrine of the devil.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28.

Many dispensationlist puport a second chance stance but as scripture clearly states , a man dies once. God judges according to our knowledge. As such, if we die before having a firm understanding of God's plan of salvation, God will only judge according to the light that they were shown. The Seventh Day Adventist position is that if a person dies before the close of probation, they will be judged according to the aforementioned.

Right before the close of probation, humanity will be shown the three angels message, where everyone alive will be shown the Sabbath truth and it will be defended soley on its biblical principle. Only then will humanity have to make a choice to accept the mark of the beast or be sealed as a saint.

Quote:

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11

Ergo No second chance.

[Guest]

Amen, Textus. That sums it up pretty well.

[Naomi]

That says it all. Amen!!

[8thdaypriest]

I think Lazarus died more than once, as did the young girl Jesus raised from the dead, as did others in Biblical account.

So you must mean that only after permanent physical death - are we judged.

Just because a thousand or more years elapse between their physical death and their resurrection to continue that life, doesn't present a problem. They will not be judged until they have made an informed choice.

To say otherwise is to accuse our FATHER of injustice. Either because He will manipulate their minds and give them a pass into His kingdom without having chosen Him OR because He will not allow them time or circumstance in which to make an informed choice.

Why do you keep saying that I am teaching dispensationalism. It sounds like you do not understand what that term means. I do NOT subscribe to the view of Scofield or Darby. I do NOT believe that our God saves people differently depending upon what age they lived. Everyone is saved by grace - thru faith - regardless of when they lived or will live.

DISPENSATIONALISM teaches that:

Israel and The Church are two distinct and absolutely separate peoples of God. Individuals of these two groups are “saved” by different means – Israelites by works of the law, and Church members by grace.

Biological descendants of Jacob, were the chosen people of God, but when they rejected Messiah they were set aside - for awhile. Right now - we are living in the “Age of the Gentiles” or “the Church age” which will end with “the rapture,” when all the “heavenly people” (the Church) will suddenly be caught up to Heaven. They will just disappear. This will happen 7 (or 3.5) years before the appearing of Christ in glory.

“Seventy weeks” were determined for Daniel’s people (the Israelites) but they did not complete the last week (7 years) of that prophecy (Daniel Chapter 9). At the rapture, biological descendants of Jacob (Israelites) will be left on the earth to complete the 70th week of their probation. They will be tested by the Antichrist, and will be saved - once again - by law keeping. Law keeping requires a Temple, and animal sacrifices.

During the first half of the “week” - the Jews (biological descendants of Jacob) will restore the Temple sacrificial system, and return to “keeping the law.” The Antichrist will deceive the Jewish people during the first half of the last “week” but “in the midst of the week” (Dan. 9:27) he will show his true character, and “will bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” He will then become a dictator who demands worship of himself, during the last 3.5 years - called the “tribulation,” or the “time of Jacob’s Trouble.” (Do you see a counterfeit Antichrist here?) God will punish those who persecute his people with great plagues. Finally, at the end of the 7 years, Christ will return to set up His earthly kingdom, when He will reign in peace for 1000 years. All of the raptured will come back with Him at His glorious return.

The doctrine of dispensationalism was taught by John Nelson Darby - a gifted Evangelical in Great Britain, a member of The Plymouth Brethren around 1830. Later C.I. Scofield, an American follower of Darby, published the “Scofield Reference Bible” which contained the dispensational views. Scofield’s commentary was printed on the lower half of each page of that Bible. Many accepted these views without question. Scofield’s views were widely accepted, and to this day are deeply held belief by many evangelical denominations. (Resource: Living in the Shadow of the Second Coming by Timothy P. Weber, 1979)

NOTE: The “Left Behind” fictional series is based on dispensationalism.

NOTE: Dispensationalism takes many forms. I have tried to summarize in a general way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do NOT understand why you are saying that I am teaching a "second chance." I am teaching a first chance - for those who never HAD any chance during their lifetimes. Was Jesus giving the young girl a "second chance" at salvation, when He raised her from the dead? NO. He was just allowing her life to continue her life.

THAT is all I am saying that Jesus will do for those who died WITHOUT knowledge of HIM, or without the mental capacity to choose Him.

And FYI - I do NOT believe in a "secret rapture." And I DO BELIEVE that the redeemed will constitute ISRAEL. ISRAEL and the redeemed are NOT two separate groups - saved in two different ways. So - no - I do not subscribe to Dispensationalism.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Green Cochoa]

Rachel,

After the second death, God will not be resurrecting more people, i.e. during the so-called eighth millennium. Once sin has been dealt with and the fires of hell have burned it out of the universe forever, no one will be raised.

The quote from Mrs. White clearly stated that those slaves whom God will not raise are not to be taken to Heaven. This means that if they were resurrected, they would have to die with the wicked. Mrs. White states clearly that they will not be resurrected, because God is compassionate Who will not punish them for their lives of involuntary ignorance of His will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Textus Receptus]

Rachel,

After the second death, God will not be resurrecting more people, i.e. during the so-called eighth millennium. Once sin has been dealt with and the fires of hell have burned it out of the universe forever, no one will be raised.

The quote from Mrs. White clearly stated that those slaves whom God will not raise are not to be taken to Heaven. This means that if they were resurrected, they would have to die with the wicked. Mrs. White states clearly that they will not be resurrected, because God is compassionate Who will not punish them for their lives of involuntary ignorance of His will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Exactly!

It is a concept that many have trouble understanding. Indeed, those who die in involuntary ignorance will not be resurrected to face a 2nd death, especially a death which is part of God's justice. As these people comitted no crime, there is no reason for a second death. God is merciful. Amen.

[8thdaypriest]

I did NOT SAY that God will raise anyone AFTER the second death.

Let me see if I can explain what I see:

Resurrection at Second Coming:

1. Sheep

2. Goats

3. Rest not raised(Ignorant)

1. In Covenant

2. rejected covenant

3. Rest (ignorant)

1. Raised to Everlasting Life

2. Raised to Everlasting Condemnation - destroyed physically

3. Not Raised - will not LIVE AGAIN until the 8th millennium

(Daniel 12:2-3, Rev. 20:5)

So there are THREE groups.

The first two informed.

The last one uninformed or immature, or mentally disabled.

When 1000 years have passed:

Group Two will NOT be resurrected to "live again." (This is where I differ with SDAs)

Group One will serve as priests "on the earth."

Group Three will "live again."

AFTER Group Three has lived and learned -

some will come to Christ, but the majority will not.

They will rebel - and THAT will be Gog-Magog.

AFTER that Gog-Magog Battle

comes the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is the way Revelation 20 reads. It is sequential.

The "DEAD" at this point will be those who were judged and physically destroyed at the second coming, AND those who rebelled and were physically destroyed at Gog-Magog.

All of "the dead" (at that point) will be judged "by their works". That means it is the redeemed people of God who are doing the judging. They must concur with the verdict -

God doesn't need to look at "books" of record.

"The DEAD" stand before God only in the sense of the record of their lives.

They are NOT raised to life again.

There is NO THIRD resurrection.

God retains an essence (call it the spirit) of each individual who has lived.

He uses this "memory" to resurrect.

This "memory" - this "spirit" essence - is what is destroyed in the "Lake of Fire." NOT physically LIVING PEOPLE.

After this - they are DEAD to God.

It is the abode of the dead (sheol) that is thrown into the lake of fire. That means every person who IS DEAD at that point. God will wipe out His special memory of those people.

Hope I have explained my view clearly enough.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

If ALL of the "ignorant" are NOT raised at the Second Coming, then that must include all children. They have not yet made an informed choice.

And that is actually what I believe.

All children will be resurrected after the 1000 years.

To say that a child will be raised to "everlasting life" just because his parents are in covenant is to accuse our Father of injustice, and manipulation.

It is not justice for one child to receive everlasting life, and another to be left like an animal, just because one was lucky enough to have parents who were believers.

And our God would have to manipulate the mind of that child to ensure his continued walk in the "ways of God." God DOESN'T DO THAT.

If He is going to manipulate minds, then WHY didn't He just do it in the first place, and skip all this painful mess.

Universalism teaches that God will "heal" the minds of all human beings, so He can "save' everyone. I DO NOT believe in Universalism.

I am aware of the vision during which Mrs. White "saw" children playing, in the kingdom. But if those children were resurrected at the Second Coming, then why are they STILL CHILDREN after the redeemed are returned to the earth.

WHAT - they didn't grow for 1000 years?

But if these children are raised at the 8th millennium - then that would FIT her vision perfectly.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[8thdaypriest]

I should say that I DO AGREE with the SDA position on the 7th millennium. I believe it WILL BE desolation. Only Satan and his angels will be left on this earth during the 7th millennium. There's a study titled "Millennium" at my website.

The Hebrew Roots, and Messianic and most Evangelical groups are teaching that many "nations" will be left alive on the earth, after the 7 last plagues. Israel will govern those nations during the 7th millennium. I TOTALLY disagree with THAT position. I think THAT position is a set up - for worship of Satan claiming to be Christ.

I personally believe that Satan will appear towards the end of the Trumpet judgments. He will point to them as the 7 last plagues. There's a reason why the trumpets destroy a THIRD, a THIRD, a THIRD of everything. They are Satan's counterfeit plagues. "His tail drew A THIRD of the stars of heaven."

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Textus Receptus]

I think Lazarus died more than once, as did the young girl Jesus raised from the dead, as did others in Biblical account.

So you must mean that only after permanent physical death - are we judged.

Just because a thousand or more years elapse between their physical death and their resurrection to continue that life, doesn't present a problem. They will not be judged until they have made an informed choice.

To say otherwise is to accuse our FATHER of injustice. Either because He will manipulate their minds and give them a pass into His kingdom without having chosen Him OR because He will not allow them time or circumstance in which to make an informed choice.

Why do you keep saying that I am teaching dispensationalism. It sounds like you do not understand what that term means. I do NOT subscribe to the view of Scofield or Darby. I do NOT believe that our God saves people differently depending upon what age they lived. Everyone is saved by grace - thru faith - regardless of when they lived or will live.

DISPENSATIONALISM teaches that:

Israel and The Church are two distinct and absolutely separate peoples of God. Individuals of these two groups are “saved” by different means – Israelites by works of the law, and Church members by grace.

Biological descendants of Jacob, were the chosen people of God, but when they rejected Messiah they were set aside - for awhile. Right now - we are living in the “Age of the Gentiles” or “the Church age” which will end with “the rapture,” when all the “heavenly people” (the Church) will suddenly be caught up to Heaven. They will just disappear. This will happen 7 (or 3.5) years before the appearing of Christ in glory.

“Seventy weeks” were determined for Daniel’s people (the Israelites) but they did not complete the last week (7 years) of that prophecy (Daniel Chapter 9). At the rapture, biological descendants of Jacob (Israelites) will be left on the earth to complete the 70th week of their probation. They will be tested by the Antichrist, and will be saved - once again - by law keeping. Law keeping requires a Temple, and animal sacrifices.

During the first half of the “week” - the Jews (biological descendants of Jacob) will restore the Temple sacrificial system, and return to “keeping the law.” The Antichrist will deceive the Jewish people during the first half of the last “week” but “in the midst of the week” (Dan. 9:27) he will show his true character, and “will bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” He will then become a dictator who demands worship of himself, during the last 3.5 years - called the “tribulation,” or the “time of Jacob’s Trouble.” (Do you see a counterfeit Antichrist here?) God will punish those who persecute his people with great plagues. Finally, at the end of the 7 years, Christ will return to set up His earthly kingdom, when He will reign in peace for 1000 years. All of the raptured will come back with Him at His glorious return.

The doctrine of dispensationalism was taught by John Nelson Darby - a gifted Evangelical in Great Britain, a member of The Plymouth Brethren around 1830. Later C.I. Scofield, an American follower of Darby, published the “Scofield Reference Bible” which contained the dispensational views. Scofield’s commentary was printed on the lower half of each page of that Bible. Many accepted these views without question. Scofield’s views were widely accepted, and to this day are deeply held belief by many evangelical denominations. (Resource: Living in the Shadow of the Second Coming by Timothy P. Weber, 1979)

NOTE: The “Left Behind” fictional series is based on dispensationalism.

NOTE: Dispensationalism takes many forms. I have tried to summarize in a general way.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do NOT understand why you are saying that I am teaching a "second chance." I am teaching a first chance - for those who never HAD any chance during their lifetimes. Was Jesus giving the young girl a "second chance" at salvation, when He raised her from the dead? NO. He was just allowing her life to continue her life.

THAT is all I am saying that Jesus will do for those who died WITHOUT knowledge of HIM, or without the mental capacity to choose Him.

And FYI - I do NOT believe in a "secret rapture." And I DO BELIEVE that the redeemed will constitute ISRAEL. ISRAEL and the redeemed are NOT two separate groups - saved in two different ways. So - no - I do not subscribe to Dispensationalism.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

In all due respect, from what I have been able to gather thus far from reading your posts, and visiting your website, your theology lacks a particular uniformity, and frankly violates the biblical chasms which exist that form the foundations of eschatology.

To be fair, I do understand it would be common place to present you with a direct rebuttal with such an accusation, however to do so would involve a tremendous amount of effort. Let's just say that the sequence of events you hypothesize can only be defended using a collage of the OT and NT that is taken out of context - not to mention stretching the Greek/Hebrew.

By no means am I a theologian, yet I do understand that the bible must be examined in light of Paul’s pronouncements of a ‘spiritual Israel’ – something that your theology seems to dismiss. It’s a concept that would dispel much of your theology. Although you do at times present eloquent defenses for your positions, you seem to neglect to the allegories, conditional prophecies, and Hebrew parallelisms that are strewed throughout the scriptures which lend to the fortification of Seventh Day positions.

You have the false presumption that Seventh Day Adventist hold EGW’s writings as Cannon, mind you a presumption that is totally false. Be that as it may, I think it important to include EGW’s comments which in my humble opinion shed light to your biblical contradictions especially those which involve an 8th millennium.

The illustrating points below are a direct rebuttal to many of Sister's Whites critics in an attempt to show contridicitions to her insight visavis scripture. Interestingly, I believe the responses actually provide a thourough rebuttal to your assumptions.

CAN THE FAITH OF BELIEVING PARENTS SAVE THEIR CHILDREN?

EGW: YES "I know that some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents

should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, 'How can little children have this test and trial?' I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children" (Selected Messages, vol. 3, p.

313).

Bible: NO "If I bring a sword against that country ... and I kill its men and their animals, assurely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men (Noah, Daniel and Job) were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved. Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out My wrath upon it, ... even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they

could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness"

(Ezekiel 14:17-20).

Bible: NO "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of thefather, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him (Ezekiel 18:20).

Bible: NO "I will judge each of you according to his own ways" (Ezekiel 33:20).

The three texts above are not referring to little children who are not yet accountable (even the first text which says "son or daughter" does not specify little children who do not know right from wrong).

Here are some texts that deal with accountability and light given:

James 4:17: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

John 9:41: "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Acts 17:30: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

And what about the salvation of our children?

Isaiah 49:25: "But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children."

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

These texts do not mean that any accountable person has a blanket covering of forgiveness based on a relative's faith. But they are no more contradictory or confusing than the Ellen White quote in question.

It would not be logical to believe that God judges adults by the light that they have, but condemns little babies who know nothing. God "winks" at their ignorance because "ignorant" is all they are.

Don't the prayers and faith of the parents make a difference to God until the child is old enough to make his/her own decisions about God? The Bible says those prayers and faith do make a difference (see James 5:16).

As for what happens to the babies (who die) of wicked parents, we don't know how all of that works, and it is not our business. Fortunately God alone is Judge and He will work it all out, we can be sure.

WILL THE SINS OF THE SLAVE BE TRANSFERRED TO THE SLAVE MASTER?

EGW: YES "I saw that the slave master will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon (transferred to) the master" (Early Writings, p. 276). (Note: the words "transferred to" are D&D's parenthetical addition, not EGW's)

BIBLE: NO "I will judge each of you according to his own ways" (Ezekiel 33:20).

BIBLE: NO "The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickednessof the wicked will be charged against him" (Ezekiel 18:20).

Ezekiel 33:8 "When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

Luke 17:2 "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend [cause to stumble] one of these little ones."

The greek word for "offend" here means to cause to stumble/sin as the NIV, NASB, RSV, Darby, Amplified and other versions render it in modern language.

Although this text is talking about causing someone to stumble as opposed to preventing them from knowing truth—as in the case of the slave—the text supports the fact that God does require us to answer for our influence in the sins of others. Ezek. 33:8 clearly states that if we do not "warn the wicked of his way" then although he dies for his own iniquity, his blood will be required at our hands.

D&D mistakenly interpret Ellen White's words "visited upon" to mean "transferred to." But there is a biblical precedent for "visited upon" which shows that this is not what the words mean. In the Second Commandment, God Himself says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me." (Exodus 20:5)

God clearly is not saying that He will literally "transfer" a man's sins onto his own children and grandchildren to the fourth generation. The man will die in his own sin, but there is a cause and effect going on.

"Transferred to" is an inaccurate interpretation of Ellen White's words. She was merely supporting the principle of Ezekiel 33:8, and using a phrase right out of the Second Commandment. Would God welcome a slave owner to heaven with open arms who has intentionally kept the gospel from his slave? Since God loves the slave as much as the slave owner then such an action would no doubt sadden and anger God. He loves all of His children equally.

CAN IGNORANT SLAVES BE SAVED?

EGW: NO "God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and

degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes" (Early Writings, p. 276).

BIBLE: YES "The true light (Jesus) that gives light to every man was coming into the world" (John

1:9).

Here Ellen White is not talking about just any "ignorant" slave, but the same slave whose sins would be "visited upon" the slave master in the above argument. God "winks" at ignorance; yet this does not mean He ignores chosen evil characteristics. If a person disobeys God's counsel while ignorant of that counsel, God winks at it. But if a person (ignorant slave in this case) harbors an evil spirit and goes against even what little light/conscience that he has, then this is different.

Ellen White explains this by saying that God "does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied." Early Writings, 276.

In other words, this slave, although not saved, will not face the punishment of the lost either.

He will simply stay "asleep" for all eternity, while the slave master suffers in the lake of fire before he is consumed.

Ironically the very text that D&D use to argue against EGW is the one that helps her case.

They quote John 1:9 "The true light (Jesus) that gives light to every man was coming into the world." This light that was given to every man was in the conscience of this slave. His master kept him from the Bible and from God, so the slave's hateful attitude (or whatever sins he had) was never overcome. Yet God does not punish the slave, either.

The question that heads the alleged contradiction is also inaccurate. The issue isn't whether or not an "ignorant" slave can be saved. It is whether one who has not lived up to the light that he has can be saved. The thing that breaks God's heart is knowing what would have happened had that hardened slave read the Bible. That is why the slave master is going to suffer.

A few pages after this very statement she states: "I saw the pious slave rise [in the resurrection] in

triumph and victory." (p. 286) She was quite clear in her writings that many slaves would be saved.

Some critics object to the idea that some will remain in their graves in light of John 5:28,29 which states that all who are in their graves will come forth. But the Bible has several instances in regard to the end time events where all-inclusive language contains definite restrictions. The best example of this is found in Revelation 6:15,16 which says that at the Second Coming "every bondman [slave] and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb." Obviously not every slave and free person is going to be lost (see also John 12:32).

[8thdaypriest]

Textus,

I wonder, when Mrs. White says "I saw that" - does she mean literally "saw" in a vision, or does she mean that she saw the meaning of a text or situation, just as we "see" some meaning in a passage of Scripture.

Most admit that she was NOT infallible.

[8thdaypriest]

Textus said,

""In all due respect, from what I have been able to gather thus far from reading your posts, and visiting your website, your theology lacks a particular uniformity, and frankly violates the biblical chasms which exist that form the foundations of eschatology.

To be fair, I do understand it would be common place to present you with a direct rebuttal with such an accusation, however to do so would involve a tremendous amount of effort. Let's just say that the sequence of events you hypothesize can only be defended using a collage of the OT and NT that is taken out of context - not to mention stretching the Greek/Hebrew.

By no means am I a theologian, yet I do understand that the bible must be examined in light of Paul’s pronouncements of a ‘spiritual Israel’ – something that your theology seems to dismiss. It’s a concept that would dispel much of your theology. Although you do at times present eloquent defenses for your positions, you seem to neglect to the allegories, conditional prophecies, and Hebrew parallelisms that are strewed throughout the scriptures which lend to the fortification of Seventh Day positions."

Textus,

Did you just get yourself a new thesaurus? Wow - all those big words. Are you just telling the folks that it's not worth your time to rebut my understanding? Are you just trying to be disrespectful and dismissive? That's how it sounds.

I do NOT dismiss "spiritual Israel." I say that the Israel of God has ALWAYS BEEN the spiritual one. Paul said, "For they are NOT all Israel who are of (descended from) Israel." When Paul says, "all Israel will be saved" - he is NOT speaking of all physical Israelites. He is speaking of spiritual Israel.

I just uploaded a study at my website titled "ISRAEL - The People of God."

Shalom

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Rachel

[Samie]

Our Savior said that when He comes again He will reward every man according to what each has done: eternal life for the righteous, wrath of God for the wicked, as Scriptures explicitly say.

At the Second Coming, the righteous dead will be resurrected first - this is the first resurrection; then the wicked dead will be resurrected next. With everyone born on earth alive, every eye will see the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven, even those who pierced Him. Every one is then present to receive his own reward: the righteous will be rewarded with eternal life and ushered to heaven in preparation for the wedding of the Lamb; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues.

After the wedding in heaven, the Groom with His bride, will come down to earth for the final battle: the battle at Armageddon, which is the final phase of the 7th plague. All wicked will be slain. The beast with his false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Then the devil will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. The saints led by the Lord, still fresh from victory in the battle at Armageddon, will camp on this earth for 1000 years. At the end of 1000 years, all wicked will be resurrected, the devil will be released from prison, and under the leadership of the devil, the wicked throng will lay siege to the camp of the saints. But fire comes down from heaven to devour them. Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire as well as all the wicked. Sin and sinners will then be forever no more...

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Matthew 24 Synopsis

Temple buildings will be completely demolished. When? What sign to signal Jesus’ return, End of the World?

False messiahs

Wars near and far

Famines, earthquakes in many parts of the world. This is only the beginning of the horrors to come

You will be arrested, persecuted, killed, and hated everywhere because of me. Many will turn away from Christ and hate and betray each other

Many false prophets lead many astray. Sin will be rampant, love will grow cold

Only those who endure to the End will be saved. The Good News must be preached to the whole world, then the End comes

When the Abomination of Desolation stands in the Holy Place, those in Judea must flee to the hills. This will be the worst calamity to ever happen to the world. If not shortened, no human can survive

More false messiahs and false prophets

Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun and moon are darkened, the stars fall from the sky, and the heavens are shaken

The sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears in the sky, all nations of the earth mourn deeply

They see the Son of Man arrive in the sky on clouds. A mighty trumpet blasts as the angels gather the chosen ones

This generation will not pass before all these things take place. No one knows the day or hour, neither the angels or the Son, only the Father

When the Son of Man returns, it will be like Noah’s days, eating, drinking, marrying, partying, unaware of what was about to happen. Some will be taken, some will be left

Be ready at all times, for the Son of Man will come when least expected

These will be days of the greatest horror since creation

While some believe that the Son of Man returns to Earth just before the 1K years begin, Dan 7 seems to have him arriving in the clouds after the Judgment of Earth's inhabitants.

Oddly enough, according to the Son of Man, even though major catastrophes are about to decimate the human population, some still find time to party, unaware of what is soon to take place around them.

[Hair]

Oddly enough, according to the Son of Man, even though major catastrophes are about to decimate the human population, some still find time to party, unaware of what is soon to take place around them.

I can't help it... wherever I go, that's where the party's at

[8thdaypriest]

Textus said,

[JoeMo]

Quote:

But I think that my studies DO DRAW PEOPLE closer to the Father, because they answer questions about HIM that those people have had since they were teens.

They show that the Father has always had a plan to reach those who were unreached.

Amen, Rachel. Your studies have re-ignited my passion; and I find myself more readily talking to others about my God because you have brought the Lord to the forefront of my mind again.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

It is most interesting to me that when anyone suggests an interpretation which does not seem to "fit" EGW published writings - it is immediately "of the Devil." That is elevating EGW higher than the Scriptures.

Amen. I do respect EGW; and believe she had a great gifting of prophecy; but not to the extent of the OT or apostolic era prophets. People who equally weigh EGW's writings with scripture make others think Adventism is a cult.

[joeb]

Quote:

But I think that my studies DO DRAW PEOPLE closer to the Father, because they answer questions about HIM that those people have had since they were teens.

They show that the Father has always had a plan to reach those who were unreached.

This isn't a reply to you, JoeMo, unless you want to take it that way. I'm just using your post because it was a quick way to respond to the quote from 8thday.

Paul addressed this question in Romans 2:11-15, and Romans 1:20.

[Guest]

Amen. I do respect EGW; and believe she had a great gifting of prophecy; but not to the extent of the OT or apostolic era prophets. People who equally weigh EGW's writings with scripture make others think Adventism is a cult.

So let me get this straight. You believe that God gave some of His prophets a partial gift of prophecy, and let them be part right and part wrong about things, and others He gave the full gift to? That doesn't even make sense. And it's not biblical.

God would be better off not to give that person any part of the gift, rather than cause confusion and leave people to try and figure out which parts are right, and which parts are wrong.

If she was a true prophet of God, then she has the same credentials as John, Paul, and Moses. If not, then she is not from God at all, but inspired and led by Satan. So it makes no sense to say that "she had a great gifting of prophecy but".

Which parts are great, the parts you agree with?

If her writings go against scripture, then she had no light at all, plain and simple.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO light in them.

That is the test. This idea of a partial prophet is a non starter according to scripture.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion...

[phkrause]

very much

[8thdaypriest]

Do we have to make EVERY discussion boil down to a debate on the inspiration of Ellen White??

[EmptyTomb]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Amen. I do respect EGW; and believe she had a great gifting of prophecy; but not to the extent of the OT or apostolic era prophets. People who equally weigh EGW's writings with scripture make others think Adventism is a cult.

So let me get this straight. You believe that God gave some of His prophets a partial gift of prophecy, and let them be part right and part wrong about things, and others He gave the full gift to? That doesn't even make sense. And it's not biblical.

God would be better off not to give that person any part of the gift, rather than cause confusion and leave people to try and figure out which parts are right, and which parts are wrong.

If she was a true prophet of God, then she has the same credentials as John, Paul, and Moses. If not, then she is not from God at all, but inspired and led by Satan. So it makes no sense to say that "she had a great gifting of prophecy but".

Which parts are great, the parts you agree with?

If her writings go against scripture, then she had no light at all, plain and simple.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO light in them.

That is the test. This idea of a partial prophet is a non starter according to scripture.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion...

Amen RLH ! 100% right on the money