Second Resurrection = Second Death?

[Ted Oplinger]

Do we have to make EVERY discussion boil down to a debate on the inspiration of Ellen White??

Actually, no. Some discussions boil down to who's treating Ellen White "the most correctly"...and some became more acrimonious than what I've seen here in this thread (as I have both read and experienced)...but I digress.

Not addressing this in particular to you, but to the topic discussion started. My apologies for having to drop in late in the discussion. I will be commenting on various comments made during the length of the thread, and not on any singular post...

From my studies, the Scriptures are very concise and precise concerning the final resurrections and the Second death. Sadly to some, there is no "second chance" found anywhere among them. Scripture is precise in saying a person lives once, then comes judgement.

Yes, there are the Scripture examples of Lazarus, the son of the widow of Nain, and the little girl Tabitha - these were given extensions of this life, not an extra life or second chance. Likewise, the widow's boy raised by Elijah. Their thoughts picked back up at the point they left off when they died, and had no recollection of what it was like to be "dead". Life continued until death, just as if they had not had the rude interruption they were raised from.

After this life, all must appear before the Judgment Seat - the throne of Father Almighty. This takes place after one is raised in a Resurrection powered by Christ's own, which every person will participate in. Those accepting God's sovereignty in redemption participate in the First Resurrection. All deemed righteous from every age and every place are raised at Christ's Second Coming. Paul calls them "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Revelation 20 clearly states that those participating in the First Resurrection will never be touched by death again. They are, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, changed from mortality to immortality.

The rest of the human race - the wicked - remains dead for another 1000 years. Their being raised again to face the consequence of their rejection of full redemption is certain, as no less than Jesus Himself said the wicked are raised in the Resurrection of judgment (John 5:29).

If the earth is indeed depopulated at Christ's coming - the start of the 1000 years - there is no possible way there can be existent nations on earth already on the scene at the end of that time period. All human beings are either with Christ in the New Jerusalem, or asleep in the ground awaiting the voice of Christ to raise them to the resurrection of judgment. Satan is unbound from his prison ONLY as Christ calls the wicked forth for judgment. Not a single one in that vast crowd, with the abyss of death eternal staring them in the face, changes their mind. Not a single one states they were truly deceived, or involuntarily ignorant, or never given a just chance, and truly wishes to be with Christ. Every single one simply rejects God's sovereignty by rejecting the fully bought salvation provided for them.

While the desire to see true justice for the "involuntarily ignorant" or the "little children cut off before a real chance at life and Gospel acceptance" is noble, the supporters of those wanting a special dispensation for these craft their doctrine in large ignorance as to the scope, justice, and magnitude of Christ's work of redemption on behalf of the human race. They look at the scene with human twistings of the Gospel, and not through the eyes of the true Gospel.

Both Paul and John (many references) write that Christ's sacrifice covers all of humanity - both at the human race corporate level and at the every human ever conceived individually level. Christ carried every one of us with Him and in Him into eternal death, then back into life by His resurrection. This covers every case - even the tear-jerker "what about..." cases people use in the attempt to decry God's justice in dealing with sin and sinners.

There is but 1 thing left for any human to do: choose whether to accept God's prodding from the inside as to the little light God gives them, or not - and all begin with a measure of faith (light given) to choose with. There is no need for a "second chance", for God has already made provision for each and every case the human mind can conceive. All go through on the first round (this life). God is thorough and meticulous on this - He who loves us so much He would send His Son to unite with us and die our death...would also love the deepest hardship case so supremely so as to make certain that person has to face the sin issue only in one lifetime, so as to not unnecessarily prolong the issue of sin and its consequences upon that person.

Everyone chooses their resurrection. Oddly for the wicked, none want to change that choice. I also don't see anyone in the Righteous camp being so fed up with God they'd rather die eternally than face an eternity under God's sovereignty. All are where they are, because they want to be there, not because they were involuntarily placed there because something about their life that didn't allow the Gospel news to get to them.

As for an "8th millenium"...I see no Scripture references containing such a term. From my studies, I am but convinced God is wrapping this up in the shortest amount of time needed to consider every detail. I do know that once Christ comes to separate the righteous from the wicked, there's only 1000 + some small change in years God uses to wrap up the sin issue...and most of that time is used by God to heal the righteous of sin's effects and bring them closer to Himself and to each other.

Need to sleep now...so it's

Blessings,

[Gibs]

For sure Ted, For He says,

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[EmptyTomb]

Well put Ted.I am going to paste your comment and share with people i know.

[8thdaypriest]

Why is it that you have no problem accepting the 7th millennium as the "sabbath millennium", but you reject the idea of the 8th millennium, as "the 8th day" which is all over the place in the Sanctuary type?

[8thdaypriest]

I believe the "second death" is a different TYPE of death. It is "spirit death." God destroys the spirit of the individual which He has retained. After that TYPE of death - the individual can NEVER be resurrected again.

One can die the first (type of) death many times, but the second (type of)death only once.

[EmptyTomb]

I believe the "second death" is a different TYPE of death. It is "spirit death." God destroys the spirit of the individual which He has retained. After that TYPE of death - the individual can NEVER be resurrected again.

One can die the first (type of) death many times, but the second (type of)death only once.

Jesus destroys the spirit while it is still part of the dieing victims as they are engulfed in flames .the king james bible in revelations is very clear on this.The resurrection of the wicked suffer the second death after the 1000 years are complete.The king james bible in revelations is very clear on this.

After the millennium is complete that would conclude the 7000 year cycle of Gods plan of salvation and judgment.

From then on the saved will be looking forward to eternity.

What bible do you use 8thdaypriest that has your interpretation of events as you see it?

ET

[8thdaypriest]

I use the King James, New King James, NIV, ESU - several.

I do NOT AGREE that the King James is very clear on YOUR view.

You are just repeating SDA/EGW interpretation.

[8thdaypriest]

Ted gave us a very good review of the SDA understanding of the resurrections, and the death of the wicked.

Ted said,

All deemed righteous from every age and every place are raised at Christ's Second Coming. Paul calls them "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

The rest of the human race - the wicked - remains dead for another 1000 years.

Rachel replies:

Where does it say that "the wicked - remain dead for another 1000 years" ??

Daniel 12:2-3 has TWO types of people coming up "at that time."

Daniel 12:1-3 “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV

John 5:28-29 has two types of people coming up at "the hour." “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

NOTE: The ignorant have NOT "done evil". Evil is rebellion against God. You cannot rebel against someone, when you do not know they exist.

Matthew 25:31-34 & 41 says "When the Son of Man comes in His glory" He will separate the sheep from the goats. That would imply BOTH are present.

Romans 2;5-11 says, that "the day of God's wrath" is THE SAME DAY when He will give eternal life to those who have done well.

Romans 2:5-11 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV) [Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles will receive their due reward or punishment.] “For God does not show favoritism.”

Revelation 11:15-18 [The seventh angel sounded.] “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever!’” [This is Daniel 7:14!] . . . The nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.’”

NOTE: That's two kinds of people. One judged and one given eternal life - at the 7th trumpet.

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

NOTE: In context - Peter is definitely speaking about the Second Coming.

Matthew 12:41 “The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.”

Sounds like some men from Nineveh will be saved, while those who rejected Christ will be lost - on the same day.

Matthew 12:42 “The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.”

NOTE: Sounds like the "Queen of the South" will be saved, and "this generation" who rejected Christ will be condemned.

My point here is: TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE - raised at the same day - the Second Coming.

Makes it sound like the wicked from this age will be resurrected, judged and destroyed on the Day when Christ returns.

WHY wake them up to do it AGAIN, 1000 years later. Seems like over kill to me.

The verses are from a study at my website titled "Judgment Day."

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[phkrause]

Excellent post Ted, I'm in 100% agreement

[EmptyTomb]

@8thdaypriest:

Your whole philosophy of the 8th day does not even fit Gods time line of 7 "sevens"

7 churches

7 trumpets

7 literal days of creation "7 days in a week"

7 spirits

7 last plagues

7 seals

8 has no place anywhere in scripture or in Gods time line.

I only use the king james old and new.

The bible clearly says the saved are resurrected at Christs second coming and reign with Christ a 1000 years.And after a 1000 years are up the wicked are resurrected.These folks face the second death.

You have all those bibles but you have never found these passages?

ET

[phkrause]

Your whole philosophy of the 8th day does not even fit Gods time line of 7 "sevens"

7 churches

7 trumpets

7 literal days of creation "7 days in a week"

7 spirits

7 last plagues

7 seals

8 has no place anywhere in scripture or in Gods time line.

I only use the king james old and new.

The bible clearly says the saved are resurrected at Christs second coming and reign with Christ a 1000 years.And after a 1000 years are up the wicked are resurrected.These folks face the second death.

You have all those bibles but you have never found these passages?

ET

[EmptyTomb]

Why is it that you have no problem accepting the 7th millennium as the "sabbath millennium", but you reject the idea of the 8th millennium, as "the 8th day" which is all over the place in the Sanctuary type?

Really?

The sanctuary service is about:

Justification...Learning the scriptures

Sanctification....being sealed in the truth

Glorification....receiving a glorified body when we are

finally with Jesus.

Once a year the high priest only went into the Most Holy Place

for the atonement of Israels sins.The sins of Israel are transferred to the scapegoat "which represents satan" and sent out of the camp.

ET

[LifeHiscost]

For sure Ted, For He says,

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

All of those facts accepted, when joined to a person's submission to Him Who holds the world in His hands, gives that peace that passes understanding, of which He's still working on in me.

God cares!

[BobRyan]

(Yes, here I go again.)

It is argued that God does not force His will upon any. This is the argument raised for the destruction of the wicked at the second resurrection, that it would be wrong for God to force His will so as to forcibly change them to serve Him. What I don't understand is how the obvious alternative is so lost on us. How is it any less wrong for Him to force His will so as to forcibly destroy them for all eternity?

Well if the game is simply to "make stuff up no matter what the Bible says to the contrary" - I suppose we could just make that one up - as well as any other story.

But it would raise a lot of questions such as "well then why didn't you save us all the trouble and make Lucifer's will behave in the first place? --- or how about Eve's will - just make her behave that one day - and all would be well for earth".

Soooo many places for God to have pushed that big-red-button that your story proposes above - and saved himself death on the cross - and everyone else the flood, crime, massacre's etc.

They very fact of the mountain of human suffering already socked away into that bank of historic suffering along with Christ suffering the torment due for each sin for each human in all of time - argues against the "oh well - let's just forget the whole thing and force the will of intelligent beings" that you propose. It would be "a little late" for God to suddenly remember that he had that shiny new force-the-will button all along - after 6000 years of bloodshed misery and sin.

in Christ,

Bob

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted gave us a very good review of the SDA understanding of the resurrections, and the death of the wicked.

[8thdaypriest]

Ted,

You obviously feel that your view is THE correct view. You do not say, "I believe," or "I think," or any other qualifier. You say, "The Bible says." The implication being that I do NOT read the Bible.

I have always said, "From my study, at this point in time, this is where I believe the weight of the evidence falls." I will not go past that.

It is your absolute, complete rejection of even the possibility of any "new light" that is off-putting.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

You obviously feel that your view is THE correct view. You do not say, "I believe," or "I think," or any other qualifier. You say, "The Bible says." The implication being that I do NOT read the Bible.

I have always said, "From my study, at this point in time, this is where I believe the weight of the evidence falls." I will not go past that.

It is your absolute, complete rejection of even the possibility of any "new light" that is off-putting.

No, Rachel, I do not feel my view is "THE correct view". I understand it to be what the Biblical evidence overwhelmingly states is the case on the matter - and take my stand on the authority of that Word. Yes, in most cases, it comes across as a very decided stand...because it is. If something is true Biblically, I am the kind of person who doesn't treat it as if it is some human theory up for debate...and the matter of there being 2 resurrections separated by 1,000 years is one that many scholars find undebatable. It is the events surrounding these 2 resurrections they debate upon.

You are correct, Rachel - I did not use the qualifiers "I believe...", or "I think....". I used the qualifier, "I understand...", and not just once, either. Whether one wishes to believe this or not, one's understanding of a matter does change over time with the input new evidence.

It is unfortunate you take the implication you do from the words, "The Bible says...", as I did accord to you as being well-versed/studied in the Word. I understand now this portion of my post was also skipped over or misunderstood.

Perhaps it is more your running into an SDA who simply doesn't swallow new theories just to get along that is more off-putting, than my rejecting the possibility of "new light", no?

I weigh new/old thoughts/perspectives on Biblical matters nearly everyday, for what it's worth. It is my studies within some of those matters (in particular, concerning the scope and manner of human salvation) that lead me to consider the manner in which your resurrection/8th millenium ideas address the justice concerns of the very young and very ignorant to be Scripturally unnecessary - even untenable, even while your raising of the question is indeed most necessary for the discussion of God's character with respect to His meting out justice against the wicked in the end.

The short version of that: You're raising a valid question, but proposing unnecessary/untenable answers to that question...in my opinion.

Food for thought.

[phkrause]

Excellent, excellent responses Ted. We definitely don't serve an SDA God, SDA saviour, etc. We serve the God and Savior of the Bible. Amen to that Ted.

[EmptyTomb]

Yes,,great post Ted

[8thdaypriest]

I realize this is an Adventist forum, so I am presenting something that I realize, will NOT be even considered as possibility by most of the posters. I am thankful for this forum BECAUSE it is visited by a few who may be open to interpretations not "seen" by EGW or her generation - not because it is WRONG, but because it was not yet time for it to be understood.

pkrause posted "8 has no place anywhere in scripture or in Gods time line."

Newborn Israelite males circumcised "the 8th day."

Animal acceptable for sacrifice on "the 8th day."

Quarantine for disease ended at "the 8th day."

Healed leper could rejoin congregation at "the 8th day."

AFTER the Sabbatical year, they were to "sow again in the 8th year."

After the 7 day Feast of Tabernacles came a special "Feast of the 8th Day."

Women who gave birth to a male child declared "clean" at the 8th day.

One who had "touched death" would be clean with Ashes of the Red Heifer at the 8th day.

Priests consecration finished and their ministry begins at the 8th day.

The cleansing and consecration of the Sanctuary/Temple was complete at the 8th day.

Jesus rose on the 8th day (which was the first day).

Did you know that Nadab and Abihu actually died on "the 8th day" - the very day when Aaron and his sons began their ministry as priests?

The 8th day is definitely part of God's "timeline."

If there is no significance to it, then WHY mention it so many times??

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

The LORD wants his redeemed (spiritual) Israel, to agree with His justice.

THAT is why the books are opened.

God doesn't need books to KNOW who belong to Him.

People need books of record.

God wants them to agree with HIM in destroying billions of human beings. His created intelligent beings must see that He has done everything possible to reach and save the ones who rejected Him.

To leave a human being DEAD, without any hope of eternal life - NOT because they rejected the LORD, but because they died without hearing about Him, or without understanding who He is - that would NOT be justice. They would be left dead, because they missed the chance to know Him, not thru any fault of their own. THAT is not justice.

And to grant eternal life to a child (who does not yet know who He is) simply because they were born to Christian parents. That is NOT justice either.

"The 8th Day" is about the justice of God.

I do NOT believe that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from this age.

I believe the wicked from this age will be raised to see Him in glory when He returns. They will be "raised to shame and everlasting contempt" on THAT day. (Dan. 12:2-3)

They will be judged, "cut off" and left for destruction ON THAT DAY.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

[Ted Oplinger]

I realize this is an Adventist forum, so I am presenting something that I realize, will NOT be even considered as possibility by most of the posters. I am thankful for this forum BECAUSE it is visited by a few who may be open to interpretations not "seen" by EGW or her generation - not because it is WRONG, but because it was not yet time for it to be understood.

pkrause posted "8 has no place anywhere in scripture or in Gods time line."

Newborn Israelite males circumcised "the 8th day."

Animal acceptable for sacrifice on "the 8th day."

Quarantine for disease ended at "the 8th day."

Healed leper could rejoin congregation at "the 8th day."

AFTER the Sabbatical year, they were to "sow again in the 8th year."

After the 7 day Feast of Tabernacles came a special "Feast of the 8th Day."

Women who gave birth to a male child declared "clean" at the 8th day.

One who had "touched death" would be clean with Ashes of the Red Heifer at the 8th day.

Priests consecration finished and their ministry begins at the 8th day.

The cleansing and consecration of the Sanctuary/Temple was complete at the 8th day.

Did you know that Nadab and Abihu actually died on "the 8th day" - the very day when Aaron and his sons began their ministry as priests?

The 8th day is definitely part of God's "timeline."

If there is no significance to it, then WHY mention it so many times??

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Rachel,

The number 8 certainly does figure large in many of the sanctuary consecrations and services. It does not, however, lend credence to using the symbol of the 8th day toward a special resurrection prior to God's final resolving of the sin issue in Creation - particularly in light of what the Scriptures declare that Christ Himself both spoke of, and then showed to John, concerning the two resurrections.

I understand the symbolism of 8 days for cleansing/consecration having everything to do with the process by which God declares one free of blemish/sin, and afterward declared acceptable to operate in the sphere of the holy. The sanctuary was but a parable/illustration to the steps God is taking to purge sin from the human race and creation, and it is there I see the 8th day has its context.

However, I understand that context does not include special resurrections for what we call "tear-jerker" cases. In Himself, Christ has already taken those issues into account in His sacrifice and in His ministry as our High Priest.

Those are the understandings I have learned from the evidence of Scripture.

Blessings,

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus said, "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit."

I believe that the Spirit of God flows thru each individual - giving him life.

At death that spirit returns to God "who gave it."

Good - Bag - ignorant - or indifferent - the spirit goes back to God.

NOT the person - the "spirit".

As the Spirit of God flows thru any individual it retains a memory of that mind. This download (It's an easy way to think of it.) is what God uses to resurrect each one, with mind intact - so the thoughts can take up just where they left off.

Our brains are - after all - just very sophisticated bio-computers.

The redeemed get a new immortal "spiritual body." The wicked are raised still in the flesh.

In death - the computer is turned off - so there is no consciousness.

Incidentally - the fact that Adam and Eve were created with bodies of flesh (dirt) tells me that they were created on probation. They would be immortal only if they continued to eat of the TREE of life.

Anyway -

I do NOT believe that the final judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment - takes place until after every rebellious human being is finally DEAD. Some at the second coming - the rest at Gog-Magog.

The Great White Throne Judgment is a final review before God destroys HIS RETAINED MEMORY of their minds in a special "lake of fire." The people themselves are DEAD when this judgment sits, and they are DEAD when God's memory of them is destroyed.

All the rebellious already died once in fire - either at the second coming, or at Gog Magog. Why burn them twice? That doesn't seem very merciful - to me.

See:

"Judgment Day"

"Gog and Magog"

"Final Judgment - Lake of Fire"

at my website.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

However, I understand that context does not include special resurrections for what we call "tear-jerker" cases.

Those "tear-jerker cases" number in the billions.

Shalom

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

However, I understand that context does not include special resurrections for what we call "tear-jerker" cases.

Those "tear-jerker cases" number in the billions.

Shalom

8thday,

I have a few questions for you. This isn't to put you down. It's questions that this thread has brought up.

Don't you believe that God is right now working with all people, and always has been, through His Spirit, even with those who have never heard the Gospel? Doesn't He reveal to all people what is right and wrong, and then those people have a choice as to whether to obey His leading or not?

Aren't we going to be judged on whether or not we have followed God's leading in our lives? And isn't that leading available to everyone in the here and now--the here and now for everyone who has ever lived or ever will live? Does/Has God exclude/d some class of people from His influence and direction?

To me the answer to the idea is very obvious because God is a God of love and justice.

I see this idea all the way through the Bible, OT and NT.