Human being

[doug yowell]

I agree.

Tambien.

[doug yowell]

The embryonic chicken in the egg has not yet formed tissues and organs.

Gramma, I noticed that the shell that contains the chicken is also called the egg.Does the shell develop independantly from the egg? Using the comparisons presented, what would be the equivilent of the egg shell when referring to the human?

[karl]

If a fertilized chicken egg is really a chicken, then all the vegetarians out there are really eating chicken meat when they eat eggs.

We also eat very tiny insects.

I hate that. Just imagine the subsonic crunch as those little mites succumb to the massive bites of the humans who lack the sensitivity to even perceive their existence at the moment of consumption.

[olger]

:)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

If a fertilized chicken egg is really a chicken, then all the vegetarians out there are really eating chicken meat when they eat eggs.

Not true. The word "meat" refers to muscle and organ tissue. The embryonic chicken in the egg has not yet formed tissues and organs.

Not true? I don't follow your reasoning. If a fertilized egg is a chicken according to your view, if I eat it, am I not eating a chicken which is made up of muscles & organs?

[SivartM]

Unless you raise chickens and for some reason want to eat fertilized eggs, you do not eat fertilized eggs.

[Overaged]

I can't believe this worthy topic has been reduced to the "chicken or the egg" argument!! Heinous I say! Heinous!

[SivartM]

So... Adam and Eve were lacto-ovo? :0

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Not true. The word "meat" refers to muscle and organ tissue. The embryonic chicken in the egg has not yet formed tissues and organs.

Not true? I don't follow your reasoning. If a fertilized egg is a chicken according to your view, if I eat it, am I not eating a chicken which is made up of muscles & organs?

How can you not follow it? I said the egg contains an embryonic chicken, which has not yet formed muscles or organs. If it hasn't yet formed those, how can it be made up of them? It would be later, if it were left to develop, but it isn't at that point. What is so hard to understand about that?

[LifeHiscost]

How could it be anything other than human? It certainly isn't any other kind of living thing. The DNA in those few cells is human, not bird, reptile, plant, fungus, or bacteria. The fact that it is not fully formed doesn't make it something else.

I like that. Sounds Holy Spirit led, very Godlike in reasoning.

"“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb."Jeremiah 1:5 NLT

Shall we call that whom God knew and formed before being birthed, subhuman?

Reminds me of this attitude, that receives its' like reward.

"Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man" Matt 25:24 AMP

Regards!

[doug yowell]

How can you not follow it? I said the egg contains an embryonic chicken, which has not yet formed muscles or organs. If it hasn't yet formed those, how can it be made up of them? It would be later, if it were left to develop, but it isn't at that point. What is so hard to understand about that?

"Too much learning hath made thee mad!"

[phkrause]

I agree.

You agree with GLG when she says "At all stages, a human is human. It's a human sperm, a human egg, a human zygote, a human fetus, a human embryo. It's always human. It's not a fully developed, viable human being, but it's never anything except human."

but when I said "Human? Yes, but not a "Being"

you said "Why is that?"

Richard this is what I meant with my statement! I might not have said it as nice as GLG, but had the same thing in mind.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I agree.

You agree with GLG when she says "At all stages, a human is human. It's a human sperm, a human egg, a human zygote, a human fetus, a human embryo. It's always human. It's not a fully developed, viable human being, but it's never anything except human."

but when I said "Human? Yes, but not a "Being"

you said "Why is that?"

Richard this is what I meant with my statement! I might not have said it as nice as GLG, but had the same thing in mind.

Oh. Ok.

[Gerr]

Unless you raise chickens and for some reason want to eat fertilized eggs, you do not eat fertilized eggs.

When I was young, that's the only kind of egg I had.

[Gerr]

Quote:

How can you not follow it? I said the egg contains an embryonic chicken, which has not yet formed muscles or organs. If it hasn't yet formed those, how can it be made up of them? It would be later, if it were left to develop, but it isn't at that point. What is so hard to understand about that?

Not only do you believe that there is an embryonic chicken or embryonic human being in a fertilized egg/ovum, but here were your very words:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

How could it be anything other than human? It certainly isn't any other kind of living thing. The DNA in those few cells is human, not bird, reptile, plant, fungus, or bacteria. The fact that it is not fully formed doesn't make it something else.

(emphasis mine)

Now here's a question for you. Suppose you have a family member who has a stroke or involved in accident (heaven forbid it should happen, but just a hypothetical situation which has actually happened many times. Your loved one becomes brain dead but otherwise looks good on a respirator. Color normal, heart rhythm normal. EEG (brain wave) test flat. Would it be killing/murder to turn off the respirator since we are looking at a human being?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

How could it be anything other than human? It certainly isn't any other kind of living thing. The DNA in those few cells is human, not bird, reptile, plant, fungus, or bacteria. The fact that it is not fully formed doesn't make it something else.

I like that. Sounds Holy Spirit led, very Godlike in reasoning.

"“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb."Jeremiah 1:5 NLT

Shall we call that whom God knew and formed before being birthed, subhuman?

Reminds me of this attitude, that receives its' like reward.

"Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man" Matt 25:24 AMP

Regards!

Was God looking at a zygote or a developed human being?

[LifeHiscost]

"...I knew you..." Jeremiah 1:5 NLT

If we were created a zygote, that would be who He knew, but I find it doubtful His language of creation was restricted to English scientific language. It's like trying to find where God was before anything was created, causing only fruitless things to occupy our mind besides how best to reveal Him as He revealed Himself in Jesus, to those who will perish without His presence in their lives.

"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:27 NKJV

"This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us. " 1 John 1:2 NLT

Understand Jesus and one is aware of who he/she is from the foundation of the world as well as at the point of conception.

Regards!

[GreatLakesGramma]

Now here's a question for you. Suppose you have a family member who has a stroke or involved in accident (heaven forbid it should happen, but just a hypothetical situation which has actually happened many times. Your loved one becomes brain dead but otherwise looks good on a respirator. Color normal, heart rhythm normal. EEG (brain wave) test flat. Would it be killing/murder to turn off the respirator since we are looking at a human being?

It isn't murder to turn off a respirator on a human being who is already dead. It's the only right thing to do, in my personal opinion.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Was God looking at a zygote or a developed human being?

You weren't asking me, but I'm going to answer that question anyway. God said to Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you...." Jeremiah 1:5. He Himself stated that before we are a recognizable human being, even before we have begun to develop, He knows and sees the person we will become. He knows what we will look like, our temperament, our likes and dislikes, our strengths and weaknesses, our talents, and our entire life history from birth to death, and on into eternity. He sent His son to die to save us, even planned that before the very creation of the world.

He has/had the same knowledge of every baby aborted before its birth, what it would have looked like, what its potential would have been and the life history it would have lived. Since He sees and cares for even the most insignificant creature, I believe He is grieved at the loss of every human life that could have been, if not for the fact that someone found it inconvenient or unworthy.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"...I knew you..." Jeremiah 1:5 NLT

If we were created a zygote, that would be who He knew, but I find it doubtful His language of creation was restricted to English scientific language. It's like trying to find where God was before anything was created, causing only fruitless things to occupy our mind besides how best to reveal Him as He revealed Himself in Jesus, to those who will perish without His presence in their lives.

"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:27 NKJV

What was this man that was created in the image of God? Was it a fertilized egg? NO!!! It was a FULLY developed moving, thinking, feeling, loving, creative human being!

As my favorite extra-biblical author said it: "Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed 18.

[Gerr]

Quote:

It isn't murder to turn off a respirator on a human being who is already dead. It's the only right thing to do, in my personal opinion.

Human being dead? While his heart, is still beating? Kidneys & lungs and every other organ except his brain is still working?

[GreatLakesGramma]

If the brain is dead, and the body is only kept functioning by artificial means, it isn't really alive.

[olger]

I agree.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I'm not going to argue about it. I don't waste my energy wrangling about hypotheticals, and I don't decide ahead of time what I would do if such things were to happen. I would never, ever make such a decision without spending enough time in earnest, focused prayer to be certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what God's will was in the matter. I don't live my life by what I think, or feel, or even want. I live it by God's direction. Period.

I also make no demands that anyone live by my convictions, either in regard to abortion, end of life issues, or anything else. Only those who have to live with the decision have the right to make it, though I would hope that they would be allowed to have as much information as possible, and make no decision until they were fully convinced that it is the right one, AND allowed to make the decision themselves, without pressure from someone else, so they don't have to live the rest of their life with guilt and depression. Unfortunately, that is often not the case with abortion.

I have said all I have to say about this issue. I'm done.

[Gerr]

If the brain is dead, and the body is only kept functioning by artificial means, it isn't really alive.

So what was once a moving, breathing, loving, creative, independent human being is now expendable without any recriminations because it no longer has a brain while the rest of his body is still living and functioning, whereas a microscopic fertilized egg that has no brain, unfeeling, uncreative, unmoving, and totally dependent, is valued as a human being?