Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Quote: This is the EXACT same thing God has been teaching me over the last couple of years! Then we are in agreement regarding the heart of the gospel! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord." Lev 19:8 GNT It is not demanding self-love....Gerry, you're a very educated man, much more than myself. Why can't you recognize only one command? There is only ONE command. Yes. The commandment assumes that a person loves him/herself. It is a given. The commandment accepts the fact that one loves his/her own person. And it does not condemn it. What it is commanding is that we are to love our neighbor with that same love that we love ourselves. It does not command us to love others INSTEAD of ourselves. Is that so hard to understand? Quote
Guest Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Exactly... Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. The question is, if we have not crucified the flesh by faith in Rom 6:6, then are we Christ's? Then there is no question. Gal 5:24 says that they that are Christ's HAVE crucified. No ifs ands or buts. It doesn't say they have figuratively crucified. Or that they have legally crucified, and no longer need to take heed to the law, and no longer need to produce the fruit of the spirit, or need not worry about obedience. Rom 6:16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience.... Php 1:11 being filled with the fruit of righteousness, that is through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Also Mark, those people who say it was all done at the cross have to do away with the judgment, and the sanctuary message. For if it was all done at the cross, there is no need of a judgment, because it has already been decided. A judgment would be useless. They say it is just figurative judgment, a formality. A mock judgment if you will. Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Jesus was not speaking of a mock or figurative judgment here. Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Rom 14:10 ...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (this is also a reference to the fourth commandment. The only commandment that identifies who God is. The creator) Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 What do you think Robert means by "under law"? What do you mean by "under the law"? Do you think it's the same thing? I don't. That is, I'd be very surprised if you had the same thing in mind by "under the law" as Robert did by "under law." Did you notice Robert wrote "under law"? (as opposed to "under the law"?). You should ask him to make sure. But from my long discussions with Robert in the past, my understanding of his position is that when Paul says that "you are not under law but under grace," in Rom 6:14,15, the believer is no longer bound or obligated to keep the law. The believer has been released from having to keep it. To me that can never be. The unborn again sinner is condemned by the law, but a person doing the very same sinful things are no longer condemned just because he/she has taken on the name of Christ? So as I understand his position, even though he ardently believes that the law demands that one has to sell everything he/she has in order to satisfy its demands, he does not have to do anything of the sort because he is no longer bound to keep the law. He has been released from keeping it. As I see it, taking on the name of Christ is nothing more than getting a license to continue doing the same things he was doing before he believed! Christ becomes a partner to sin! Paul plainly says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be!" God forbid! as one translation says. "How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Quote: Anyway, I'd be curious to know what you think this expression means (i.e., "under the law"). I understand the phrase "under law" in at least two ways. 1. Rom 6:14 "You are not under law but under grace." In Rom 3:20 Paul says we are not saved by keeping the law, but points out sin. Yet the law cannot give you power to obey it even if you have the desire to do right, Rom 7:18. Paul clearly says that we are saved by grace through faith, a gift, and not a result of works. So then, to me Rom 6:14 means that we are not under law as a means of salvation but under grace. 2. In Gal 3:23-24 Paul says: Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. ESV How can someone become a prisoner, a captive of the law? Because it discovers sin in us. "For all have sinned." Therefore it condemns us. It also serves as a guardian (paidagogos), a tutor that teaches us right and wrong. Since the law cannot remedy sin, it can only point us to Christ, the One who has the remedy for sin. Now, once a sinner is in the presence of Christ, is he then free to break the law? If he leaves Christ's presence, the paidagogos (tutor/guardian) stands at the door to grab him by the ear to point/take him back to Christ. To be under law in galatians then is to be discovered as a sinner (come under condemnation), and one becomes its captive/prisoner. In order for one to be set free fromimprisonment or free from the guardian, one has to come to Christ and remain in Christ, and be indwelt and led by His Spirit. (Gal 5:16,18). Walking in the Spirit brings out the fruit, and Paul clearly says that there is no law against such, whereas those who continue the works of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo How is the old man/self put to death? Through the new birth through the Holy Spirit. Born again, born from above, Jn 3, a divine seed is implanted in him, 1 Jn 3, becomes a partaker of divine nature, 2 Pet 1, so that he becomes a new creature, 2 cor 5. Pure nonsense....If the old man were dead, you wouldn't sin!!!! The only thing that changes at the new birth is the mind/heart. The Good News is so good that a lot of people call it nonsense or foolishness. But you are right, we are still living the same body we were baptized in. And you are right again, that the essential change is in the soul, in the mind. So what happens to the body? Paul says in Ro 6:11: So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. ESV Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. NKJ. The same Gk word logizomaitranslated "consider" "reckon" is the same word used when God reckons/counts righteousness in our account. If the change in man is only make believe when Paul says we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, then God reckoning righteousness in our behalf is also make believe. 2 b cont'd Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Baptism is symbolic of death and resurrection, Ro 6. But when one comes up from the watery grave, that is when the real mortification begins. How is this done? 1. Grace teaches us to say no to sin. Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age." NIV 2. This is God's work with our cooperation. Phil 2:12,13 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." ESV 3. By His Spirit. Ro 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." Col 3:5 ESV This work is the work of a lifetime. But while we are in the process of being cleansed/purified from all kinds of sins, God looks at us as perfect by virtue of that one sacrifice, Heb 10:14. If that is not good news, then I don't know what. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2010 Moderators Posted June 18, 2010 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook What you're forcing it to say doesn't even make sense. I'm not forcing Rom 6:6....Your old life died in the body of Christ 2000 years. "That grace instructs [present tense, not 2000 yrs ago] us to give up ungodly living and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this world, [here & now]" Titus 2:11 GNT Quote
Robert Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 The commandment accepts the fact that one loves his/her own person. And it does not condemn it. What do you think it means to deny self? In describing agape Paul states, "love (agape) is not self-seeking". EGW accurately comments on this: You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439] Note: Self-love seeks its own, then maybe it aids another's attempt at wealth. Agape, according to EGW, doesn't seek its own wealth, but another's wealth. Very clear! Again, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." That's denying self.....There's no love of self in this statement...none, zip, zero. Clearly the law condemns anything outside agape love, right? Quote
Robert Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Titus 2:11 GNT That quote is not within the context of Romans 6:6.... Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 19, 2010 Moderators Posted June 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo The commandment accepts the fact that one loves his/her own person. And it does not condemn it. What do you think it means to deny self? Jesus said, "And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me," Lk 9:23 The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 9:23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. That self that Jesus said is to be denied, is the same as the "old man" (KJV) or "old self" ESV "former way of life" NIV that Paul refers that needs to be crucified. It is the same as the "sinful flesh" that Paul refers to in Ro. 8 that needs to be put to death. Why? Because "the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-22 ESV. These are the cravings of the "old self" that need to be denied. That's why Paul goes on to say: "put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-24 ESV Is the new self that is created that is created after the likeness of God in true righeousness and holiness to be denied also? Obviously not. BTW, if you notice, in that long list of sins that the old self likes to indulge in, Paul does not even mention self-love because he knew what Jesus said, that we are to love others in the same manner that we love ourselves, or that we are to do to others what we want others to do to us. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 19, 2010 Moderators Posted June 19, 2010 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Titus 2:11 GNT That quote is not within the context of Romans 6:6.... Does Paul have one gospel for Titus, another for the Romans, and yet another for the Galatians? No? Then what he wrote to Titus is in the context of Paul's own theology. Whether to Titus, the Romans, Ephesians, or whomever, the grace of God does the same - it teaches/trains the gospel receiver to say "No" to sin. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible's message is: turn away from sin. Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (this is also a reference to the fourth commandment. The only commandment that identifies who God is. The creator) False statement.... Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 19, 2010 Moderators Posted June 19, 2010 Quote: In describing agape Paul states, "love (agape) is not self-seeking". Does Paul in 1 Cor 13:5 where he says, "is not self-seeking" or "does not seek its own" mean that love has no concern for its own welfare? Other translations render it this way. "It does not insist on its own way." ESV "is not selfish," NCV "It does not demand its own way." NLT "Doesn’t force itself on others, Isn’t always “me first,” Message "it is not self-serving," NET "It does not insist on its own way" NRSV If Paul meant to say that agape excludes all manner of self-love, why then did he say:"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." Phil 2:4 ESV. "Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." NIV "do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others." NASB Had he meant absolutely no self-interest whatsoever, would he not have said, "Don't look for your interest, but only the interest of others?" Quote: Clearly the law condemns anything outside agape love, right? Clearly, agape love that looks out for one's own interest as well as that of thers, is what God requires. Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 BTW, if you notice, in that long list of sins that the old self likes to indulge in, Paul does not even mention self-love because he knew what Jesus said, that we are to love others in the same manner that we love ourselves, or that we are to do to others what we want others to do to us. Here's the sum of the law: Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like.... "And the like" means other sins. The list is incomplete. Sin (singular) always stems from our love of self. If I commit adultery it's because my nature, which is self-seeking, desires the pleasure of another woman. What's the motive? Me, Me, me....That's self-love. I don't care if it hurts my wife...I want what I want. That's self-love. Since I am born bent-to-self (sin singular) I commit sins (plural). Sins are a result of my love of self (sin). I go to work every day. Who am I thinking of? The guy under bridge that I pass every day? No, me....I have my lifestyle to maintain...after all it's a dog eat dog world and I have to stay on top. Instead agape gives up everything for the good of others with no thought towards self. On the cross Christ couldn't see beyond the portals of the tomb. The Father, the source of His resurrection, had forsook Him. So when Christ died He thought that it was to be for eternity. He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could have heaven in His place. That's agape! And we worry about giving all our goodies to our neighbor when Christ was willing to give His life up forever so that we could have heaven in His place.... Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Does Paul in 1 Cor 13:5 where he says, "is not self-seeking" or "does not seek its own" mean that love has no concern for its own welfare? Whose welfare are you primarily concerned with? Your own, right? Your neighbor, if he is lucky, gets the crumbs, right? You make sure you get all the perks in life, after all you worked hard for your money. That my friend is self-love! You will never be allowed to take this mentality into heaven, never!. After all EGW states that, "In heaven none will think of self , nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them ." [2T 132] If, in heaven, I am not thinking of my needs...my mansion...my lawn...my this, my that...then who will I be thinking of? Others! I'll have that love, "which seeks not her own [wealth], but another's wealth." [DA 439] Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Does Paul ... mean that love has no concern for its own welfare? Let's say you are business man....How long would you be in business if you practiced agape love as described in the following? Here's the context: Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love [agape] your enemies .... How? 34... if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love [agape] your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Clearly, agape love that looks out for one's own interest as well as that of theirs, is what God requires. You are teaching what Lucifer introduced in heaven. When Satan rebelled against God in heaven [Revelation 12:7-9], he was really rebelling against the God’s agape love the spirit of His law [Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13-14]. The idea that “love (agape) seeketh not her own” (i.e., self) [1 Corinthians 13:5] was too restrictive to Lucifer. Consequently he objected to it and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Therefore, ever since his fall, the enemy of God and man (Satan) has hated the concept of agape. A little self-love can't hurt, can it? Look at the history of the past 6000 years.... Quote
Robert Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 If Paul meant to say that agape excludes all manner of self-love, why then did he say: "Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." Phil 2:4 ESV. Why did God allow polygamy? Why did God allow Israel to be like the other nations and have a visible king? Because that's where they were at. In His love He allows things that will never take place in heaven. Paul realizes that the best of believers are falling short of God's agape love. He realizes that believers are in a conundrum, i.e., if they live totally for others all would have to do the same. One bad apple would ruin everything. This was especially true with the church of Acts. All believers had everything in common....There was no this is mine and that is yours...that is, until Anais and Saphira came along and reintroduced the principle of self. Anyway, yes...under grace God allows limited self-interests because we are in a world dominated by self-seeking and self-love. Does He condone it? No, but He allows it until it collapses...and it will collapse because Lucifer is its inventor. For the 144,000...no self-interests will be displayed. They will be God's remnant....They will fully mature and reflect God's agape love. Hence, they loved not their lives unto death. This is the church fully grown up....They have no self-interests....Land, money even life itself means nothing to them. Hence they have the mind of Christ to its fullest. This is the ultimate fruit of the gospel. This is why we had to delivered from under the law....Not because the law is bad or evil, but because we are not meeting its demands to the fullest. Rob Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 p:What do you think Robert means by "under law"? What do you mean by "under the law"? Do you think it's the same thing? I don't. That is, I'd be very surprised if you had the same thing in mind by "under the law" as Robert did by "under law." Did you notice Robert wrote "under law"? (as opposed to "under the law"?). G:You should ask him to make sure. But from my long discussions with Robert in the past, my understanding of his position is that when Paul says that "you are not under law but under grace," in Rom 6:14,15, the believer is no longer bound or obligated to keep the law. The believer has been released from having to keep it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 he ardently believes that the law demands that one has to sell everything he/she has in order to satisfy its demands For a person who claims to keep God's law you sure break the 9th commandment often. If you can't tell the truth why not be silent? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Where did Gerry make such a claim? This habit of making things personal is certainly off-putting. One should be able to discuss concepts without coming under personal attack. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Where did Gerry make such a claim? He claims to keep God's law; he claims to be part of God's remnant.... Quote
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 he ardently believes that the law demands that one has to sell everything he/she has in order to satisfy its demands When Gerry can explain the following often repeated quotes then he will get the picture. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439] "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 p:Where did Gerry make such a claim? R:He claims to keep God's law; he claims to be part of God's remnant.... Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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