Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Robert]

EGW says that we will "share in Christ's poverty."

"Those who follow him must share his poverty"

If you follow Christ in His denial of self-interests, self-seeking and self-love in this world dominated by one's preoccupation with self, you'll be without. I don't know why you guys have such a hard time understanding this principle. It's not that difficult. Maybe it's that you don't want to admit that you are not living Christ's life and hence you can't call yourselves commandment keepers.

[Robert]

For most of Christ's life, He had a place to lay His head, which has been pointed out to you many times.

I don't know about most of his life, but it's a moot point anyway. Providing for others is not sin, i.e., in this case Christ. It's living for self...serving self...loving self...building one's own wealth that is sin according to the spirit of the law

[Robert]

It doesn't mean we need to do what Robert thinks we need to do, whether that's live under a bridge or whatever, but what God thinks we need to do.

Again, the trees are getting in your view of the forest. Dude, think! Jesus never said go live in a box...or under a bridge. He said if you want to live a righteous life you must walk as He walked in the denial of self. You are to be servant of all. You are to take your natural love of self and project it to your neighbor instead of yourself.

If you loved your neighbor as you naturally, spontaneously love yourself, your neighbor would have your wealth. The result? (unless your neighbor reciprocated), poverty!!!

[Robert]

...she did have an estate when she died.

Yes, and unless it was given to her through the charity of others (agape), she was a sinner in need of a Savior because she, even in some small way, was bent-to-self.

Ellen White was not Christ. Yes, like her own quote stated, she was growing away from selfishness, but she wasn't selfless. Here's that quote:

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [mindset] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

Notice that she said growing away from selfishness....It's moving towards Christ's denial of self. She didn't say she had arrived. So using her as the standard of righteousness is the making of a cult (and many SDA have).

As to EGW, yes, she like all of us has selfishness in her life:

“A few things about Ellen White’s new house may have puzzled some visitors who entertained a narrow image of her and regarded her as a severe, reserved person. An ornamental glass panel in the main front door, and an entire, tall window beside the stairway in the hall were made of numerous pieces of colored and patterned glass. Blues, reds, greens, yellows, purples—all were there to spice up the appearance of the entryway and the stairway. Around the fireplace (a feature that was a strong attraction to Ellen White) the Pratts had installed imported tiles depicting the legend of King Arthur. Ellen White would not have selected such decorations, but she was not so straitlaced as to have them removed.” [Ellen G. White: The Early Elmshaven Years Volume 5 1900-1905, P 37]

Now, who is your example? Ellen White or Christ? Ellen was a sinner...she wasn't free of self-interest and self-seeking, but she wasn't like the common man either. She grew...but she still needed the robe of Christ's righteousness....

[Robert]

It's not reasonable to take a little snippet of what a person writes, and use that as the entire basis of a personal theory.

But when there are lots of snippets, it is very reasonable.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Those who follow him must share his poverty"

If you follow Christ in His denial of self-interests, self-seeking and self-love in this world dominated by one's preoccupation with self, you'll be without. I don't know why you guys have such a hard time understanding this principle. It's not that difficult. Maybe it's that you don't want to admit that you are not living Christ's life and hence you can't call yourselves commandment keepers.

Was Abraham a follower of God? Nay, a FRIEND of God. Of him it is written:

Gen 13:2 "Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold."

Or was he allowed to keep his riches because he was now a friend of God and therefore the law of poverty no longer applied to him?

[pnattmbtc]

p:EGW says that we will "share in Christ's poverty."

R:"Those who follow him must share his poverty"

If you follow Christ in His denial of self-interests, self-seeking and self-love in this world dominated by one's preoccupation with self, you'll be without. I don't know why you guys have such a hard time understanding this principle. It's not that difficult. Maybe it's that you don't want to admit that you are not living Christ's life and hence you can't call yourselves commandment keepers.

[Robert]

Was Abraham a follower of God? Nay, a FRIEND of God.

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert: building one's own wealth - that is sin according to the spirit of the law

pnattmbtc: No.

Then there's no more to discuss....You have eyes, but you can not see.....

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert: If you loved your neighbor as you naturally, spontaneously love yourself, your neighbor would have your wealth. The result? (unless your neighbor reciprocated), poverty!!!

pnattmbtc: No, this is misunderstanding the principle.

Ellen White wrote hundreds of pages on the principle of stewardship. There's no reason to twist one little snippet into something contrary to her intent.

One? Nay, many more....It is you who have twisted the spirit of the law itself. Why? So that you can appear holy....

[Robert]

Where do you get the idea that one cannot have an estate unless it's given to you by someone else? Where in Scripture do you see such an idea? Where are you getting this idea from?

I've been quoting to you the spirit of the law. I've given you many EGW quotes, but you shut your eyes unless you be exposed as a sinner. Have it your way.

[Robert]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: There's no reason to twist one little snippet into something contrary to her intent.

Robert: One? Nay, many more....It is you who have twisted the spirit of the law itself. Why? So that you can appear holy....

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self , nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Was Abraham a follower of God? Nay, a FRIEND of God.

Abraham was a man of faith....Nothing is said that He lived Christ's life. If you live Christ's life you will share His poverty.

Christ: "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love." Jn 15:10 ESV

Of Abraham: "Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:5 ESV

Besides, it is precisely because he could not completely and perfectly live the kind of life that Jesus lived that God reckoned Christ's righteousness to his account. And ditto - to us!

Quote:

Gen 13:2 "Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold."

Yes, and He got it from the Pharaoh. Read the account and then get back with me.

So? God said He would BLESS Abraham, not make him poor.Furthermore, he was already rich when he went to Egypt; he just got richer with pharaoh's gifts.

[Gerr]

Hmmmmmmm. Interesting how you latch onto EGW like she's the pope or a canonical prophet when what she says seems to support a pet idea of yours, but when you don't agree with her, she's no prophet at all.

How about these:

"I counsel you, my brethren and sisters: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." If you desire your children to observe the Sabbath according to the commandment, you must teach them by both precept and example."

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 6. 1855; 2002 (359). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"There is another matter too often neglected by those who seek the Lord in prayer. Have you been honest with God? By the prophet Malachi the Lord declares, "Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from Mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto Me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed Me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed Thee? In tithes and offerings." Mal. 3:7, 8. {COL 144.3}

As the Giver of every blessing, God claims a certain portion of all we possess. This is His provision to sustain the preaching of the gospel. And by making this return to God, we are to show our appreciation of His gifts. But if we withhold from Him that which is His own, how can we claim His blessing? If we are unfaithful stewards of earthly things, how can we expect Him to entrust us with the things of heaven? It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer. {COL 144.4}

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (144). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Robert]

Of Abraham: "Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:5 ESV

This isn't referring to the 10 commandments. We have discussed this before. If you reject my statement prove it.

[Robert]

he was already rich when he went to Egypt; he just got richer with pharaoh's gifts.

Prove to me that Abraham was made rich by God.

[Robert]

Interesting how you latch onto EGW like she's the pope or a canonical prophet when what she says seems to support a pet idea of yours, but when you don't agree with her, she's no prophet at all.

I don't make the prophet claim. She clearly has error too. I use her because SDA make her the end all, be all of truth. Personally she has good things to say, and things not so good.

[Robert]

Christ: "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love." Jn 15:10 ESV

You need to read all the context.....

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and [that] your joy may be made full. 12 This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The greatest love man can experience is that he dies for a friend. But God's love far surpasses this! Here, lets read it:

Rom 5:6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners [His enemies- see vs 10], Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath [of God] through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

[Robert]

For you viewing pleasure:

....when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life.

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.

"In heaven none will think of self...but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them.

Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character....He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. .... Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty."

[John317]

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo: [color:blue]Hmmmmmmm. Interesting how you latch onto EGW like she's the pope or a canonical prophet when what she says seems to support a pet idea of yours, but when you don't agree with her, she's no prophet at all.

I agree. Ellen White herself had much to say about people who do this. See 1 SM 42, 43.

It would be like people quoting the Bible when it suits their purporse but discarding it when it doesn't. Not a very honest way to handle either the word of God or the Spirit of prophecy, it seems to me.

[Guest]

Once again John, you have spoken truthfully, and exposed a dishonest method of debate.

[John317]

Imagine a guy who during a debate often quotes a book as an authority, but then every time you quote the same book, he tells you (with a straight face, no less!) that the book is not reliable and therefore he doesn't accept its statements.

Any people who do this here?!! Sad, uh?

[Guest]

Pretty sad. It reminds me of a text.

2Tim 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, (Jack Seroquel) having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Thess 2:10-12

[Guest]

Imagine a guy who during a debate often quotes a book as an authority, but then every time you quote the same book, he tells you (with a straight face, no less!) that the book is not reliable and therefore he doesn't accept its statements.

Any people who do this here?!! Sad, uh?

Well you know the stock answer. "I only quote her for your benifit".

Oh that we could only be spared of this great benifit.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

off topic...

(Jack Seroquel)