Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Woody]

Quote:

2Tim 4:3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, [(Pipim)] having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Like others have pointed out Richard. This is really not appropriate ... not does it add to the discussion.

[Gerr]

Quote:

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

You can't be under law while becoming less selfish. The law allows no sin....

So then, how can the law release you if you continue to live in sin? That's adultery! Paul makes that abundantly clear in Rom 7.

As I said before, what could be more ridiculous idea than to put forth the notion that if one put on the label, "Christian" or "In Christ" that now one has the license to do anything because now the law does not apply? You have completely missed what it means to die to sin or to die with Christ.

Growing away from selfishness while living in sin is an oxymoron!

[pnattmbtc]

Let's cut the baloney out.....Are you living Christ's life? Yes...no?

[pnattmbtc]

Our prophet's writings are not scripture. This is a common error that some SDAs make. Regarding our prophet's writings .... she herself said to compare them to scripture and to toss out those that are not in agreement.

What are you thinking of here? Could you quote it please?

Our prophet was as inspired as any other prophet, whether in Scripture or not. Being in Scripture doesn't make a prophet any more inspired, or true, or better in any way than one who is not in Scripture. It's just a difference in how God chose to use the particular servant.

If God inspires someone, then the things that the inspired person communicates as messages from God at true, and that's the important thing. Also God can use a messenger without the messenger being "divinely inspired," yet that person has a message which just as much from God as any other servant as his. Jones and Waggoner come to mind in this regard.

Truth is the important thing.

[pnattmbtc]

Richard:2Tim 4:3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, [(Pipim)] having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

W:Like others have pointed out Richard. This is really not appropriate ... not does it add to the discussion.

Agreed. We should be able to discuss issues without treating others badly.

[Robert]

The frown of God comes because he knows the damage that willful sin causes upon the one who practices it.

So as long as you are ignorant sin causes no damage.....Whatever....

[Robert]

Growing away from selfishness while living in sin is an oxymoron!

That statement is just plain ignorant. Unless you are selfless you are still selfish. You might be less selfish, but you are still selfish and hence still living in sin. You still practice love of self, right? You are living in sin according to the law.

[Robert]

The law doesn't demand anything. It's not alive.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Growing away from selfishness while living in sin is an oxymoron!

That statement is just plain ignorant.

We'll see.

Quote:

Unless you are selfless you are still selfish. You might be less selfish, but you are still selfish

You are right in this regard. Selfishness is not magically eradicated after one comes out of the baptismal water. As I said before, the process of mortification of the passions and desires of the flesh has just started.

Quote:

and hence still living in sin. You still practice love of self, right? You are living in sin according to the law.

Herein lies your serious mistake, I believe. You say that the believer continues to PRACTICE SIN. Paul is very clear and consistent, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Ro 6:1-2 KJV. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." 6:15 ibid. And John in 1 Jn 3 says that those who continue to practice sin don't knowHim.

What does it mean to "live in sin" or "live in the flesh?" Paul says: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 ESV.

As a slave to sin, you DO AND PRACTICE what it tells you to do. Sin/flesh is lord. It is the reigning principle. "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Gal 5:16 NASB. " "It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age," Ti 2:12 NIV.

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Ro 8:13 ESV. "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:18 ESV.

According to your view, to be under grace is to be released from obeying the law. The believer continues to practice sin. But according to Paul, it is the believer who by the Spirit is obeying and one by one putting to death the evil deeds of the body that is released from the law. You say, one is released FROM obedience. Paul says one is released BECAUSE he is obeying, albeit imperfectly.

Remember the quote? "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." FW p.50

Here is what Paul has to say: "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Ro 8:3-4 NIV

According to the law, you are always short even if you are trying to obey. But under grace, our account is always full due to the merits of Christ, "you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Ro 6:17 ESV

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That statement is just plain ignorant.

We'll see.

Quote:

Unless you are selfless you are still selfish. You might be less selfish' date=' but you are still selfish

You are right in this regard. Selfishness is not magically eradicated after one comes out of the baptismal water. As I said before, the process of mortification of the passions and desires of the flesh has just started.

Quote:

and hence still living in sin. You still practice love of self, right? You are living in sin according to the law.[/quote']

Herein lies your serious mistake, I believe. You say that the believer continues to PRACTICE SIN. Paul is very clear and consistent, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Ro 6:1-2 KJV. "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." 6:15 ibid. And John in 1 Jn 3 says that those who continue to practice sin don't knowHim.

What does it mean to "live in sin" or "live in the flesh?" Paul says: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 ESV.

As a slave to sin, you DO AND PRACTICE what it tells you to do. Sin/flesh is lord. It is the reigning principle. "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Gal 5:16 NASB. " "It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age," Ti 2:12 NIV.

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Ro 8:13 ESV. "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:18 ESV.

According to your view, to be under grace is to be released from obeying the law. The believer continues to practice sin. But according to Paul, it is the believer who by the Spirit is obeying and one by one putting to death the evil deeds of the body that is released from the law. You say, one is released FROM obedience. Paul says one is released BECAUSE he is obeying, albeit imperfectly.

Remember the quote? "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." FW p.50

Here is what Paul has to say: "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Ro 8:3-4 NIV

According to the law, you are always short even if you are trying to obey. But under grace, our account is always full due to the merits of Christ, "you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Ro 6:17 ESV

We should all take time to read this, it is the truth.

Mark

[Robert]

According to your view, to be under grace is to be released from obeying the law.

Absolutely! You've got it! Why? The law condemns all selfishness...every trace and particle. Once ounce of self-love detected by the law and you stand condemned....You are cursed.

You see the law doesn't say, "well, Gerry is really trying. He's not cheating on his wife...he doesn't steal or kill, but he really doesn't love his neighbor as he loves Himself. If he did his neighbor would be well off, but instead Gerry loves himself a bit more than his neighbor. Gerry must die!"

Now, do you wish to be under the law still?

[Robert]

Remember the quote? "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

So...Gerry gets it right 80% of the time and when he fails Christ makes up the other 20%? That's what the Judaizers taught....

No part of your ticket to heaven is based on your performance. That's not to say there are no works of love....But if your works partially play a part of your ticket to heaven then what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago is incomplete. You, through the Spirit, must make up for what Christ failed to do 2000 years ago. That is heresy....

[pnattmbtc]

p:The frown of God comes because he knows the damage that willful sin causes upon the one who practices it.

R:So as long as you are ignorant sin causes no damage.....Whatever.

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry:According to your view, to be under grace is to be released from obeying the law.

R:Absolutely! You've got it! Why? The law condemns all selfishness...every trace and particle. Once ounce of self-love detected by the law and you stand condemned....You are cursed.

You see the law doesn't say, "well, Gerry is really trying. He's not cheating on his wife...he doesn't steal or kill, but he really doesn't love his neighbor as he loves Himself. If he did his neighbor would be well off, but instead Gerry loves himself a bit more than his neighbor. Gerry must die!"

Now, do you wish to be under the law still?

It seems your confusing "obeying the law for the purpose of gaining God's favor" with "obeying the law." To try to gain God's favor by one's own works would bring one under the law, and under the curse. But obeying the law doesn't do this. Scripture says the exact opposite. Cursed is everyone who does NOT obey all the things written in the law. Galatians talks about this.

The question of Galatians is not *whether* the law should be kept, but how. Should it be kept by faith? Or by one's own efforts apart from Christ?

Obedience does not put one under the law, and such an idea is absurd. Attempting to gain God's favor is what puts one under the law, and the reason is simple, because it's a rejection of Christ. If we have Christ, we have righteousness, and the law approves of this righteousness, because it is the righteousness of Christ. Otoh, if we do not have Christ, we do not have righteousness, which brings one under the curse, not for any arbitrary reason, but simply for the reason that to live according to any other principles than the principles of agape is to bring upon oneself misery and death.

[Robert]

You don't understand there's a difference between willful sins and sins of ignorance?

[Robert]

Obedience does not put one under the law, and such an idea is absurd.

Who told you that you were obeying the law? Living Christ's life, a life where Christ "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself" is obeying the spirit of the law.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

According to your view, to be under grace is to be released from obeying the law.

Absolutely! You've got it! Why? The law condemns all selfishness...every trace and particle. Once ounce of self-love detected by the law and you stand condemned....You are cursed...............

Now, do you wish to be under the law still?

Sometimes I wonder if you even bother to read the responses others give you. I have already explained that Paul made it abundantly clear that:

1. Truely repentant and converted sinners cannot go on LIVING in sin or the flesh, Ro 6:1, 15. Otherwise what is the point of repentance and conversion if after one believes, one can keep on living in the same old life? The Apostle John says, "So anyone who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. Anyone who goes on sinning has never really understood Christ and has never known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NCV. In fact, he says this is how we can distinguish who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. The former practices righteousness and the latter make a practice of sinning, 1 Jn 3:8-10.

2. Because the believer is still in the same body with its passions & desires, he needs another power working from within to gain the victory. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions." Rom 6:12 ESV. The choice is ours which master to obey, "either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness." Ro 6:16 ESV.

3. "If you use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." Rom 8:13 NCV. How much plainer can Paul make it than this?

4. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Ro 8:8 ESV. But if you "walk by the Spirit, ...you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." Gal 5:16 ESV.

5. The works of the flesh that cannot please God are: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, etc. etc...I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-23 ESV. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Gal 5:232-23 ESV.

6. These are the kind of believers who are released from the law. "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:18 ESV.

[Robert]

Legalist!

You have used Bible versions that lean towards your self-righteous views. You are not living Christ life and hence, under your theology, you stand condemned. No heaven for you!

[olger]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Remember the quote? "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

So...Gerry gets it right 80% of the time and when he fails Christ makes up the other 20%? That's what the Judaizers taught....

If that was the only thing EGW wrote on the subject, it could be construed as though the believer is working part of his way to heaven. But such is not the case.

"We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith."

White, E. G. (1892; 2002). Steps to Christ (61). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"We cannot earn salvation, but we are to seek for it with as much interest and perseverance as though we would abandon everything in the world for it." {COL 117.2}

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (117). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Everything that man does, even at the prompting of the Spirit is still imperfect. That is why everything even the converted does still has to be sprinkled with the incense of His merits in order to be pleasing to God. As the Apostle James said, "Faith without works is DEAD!"

It is for the believer who is walking and obeying by the Spirit for whom all the requirements of righteousness by the law is fully met, not those who are still living & obeying the dictates of the flesh, Rom 8:4.

Are we living Christ's life perfectly? Obviously not, that's why we need a savior. As far as the law is concerned, whatever we do is NEVER enough. But "when it is in the HEART to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end,..." grace says, "It is enough!" Faith working by love, albeit imperfect love, under grace fulfills ALL the righteousness required by law.

[Gerr]

Legalist!

You have used Bible versions that lean towards your self-righteous views. You are not living Christ life and hence, under your theology, you stand condemned. No heaven for you!

Look up those same verses IN ANY VERSION you like.

[Robert]

"Everything that man does, even at the prompting of the Spirit is still imperfect. That is why everything even the converted does still has to be sprinkled with the incense of His merits in order to be pleasing to God. As the Apostle James said, "Faith without works is DEAD!"

[Robert]

I have Gerry on the ropes.... teehe

[Robert]

Look up those same verses IN ANY VERSION you like.

1 Jn 3:6 NCV.

1 Jn 3:8-10.

Ro 6:16 ESV.

Rom 8:13 NCV.

Gal 5:16 ESV.

Gal 5:19-23 ESV.

Gal 5:232-23 ESV.???

Gal 5:18 ESV.

Okay...I'll be back

[Gerr]

Quote:

Are we living Christ's life perfectly? Obviously not, that's why we need a savior. As far as the law is concerned, whatever we do is NEVER enough.

Excellent. That's why we can't be under law....That doesn't mean we do not grow....

Ok, we are agreed that believers are not under law but under grace. Where we differ is that to you to be released from the law means to be released from obedience to it. But I say that to be released from it, one has to obey it. Your point is well taken that even at our best behavior, WE ARE NOT SATISFYING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES! That is why we have to be, as you say, "in Christ" in order to satisfy the demands of the law. But Paul is clear to me, that those for whom the righteousness of Christ fully satisfies the requirements of the law are those who are walking/living not according to the dictates of the flesh but are walking/living under the direction of the Spirit, Ro 8:4. Because they are still living in "this body of death", they will continue to have sin to contend with. But sin is no longer their master whose every whim they obey. The gospel now teaches them to "say NO" to unrighteousness, Tit 2:12. And by the power of the Holy Spirit are now mortifying, putting to death the deeds of the body, Rom 8:13. Faith is now working out what God is working in, Phil 2:12,13.

Can't you see how beautifully all these verses are coming together? Once we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, our intents and purposes are to please and obey God, not to gain brownie points, but to glorify Him. We will continue to make mistakes and fall short, but no longer do we do so willfully and intentionally.

Quote:

But "when it is in the HEART to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end,..." grace says, "It is enough!" Faith working by love, albeit imperfect love, under grace fulfills ALL the righteousness required by law.

That last part I can't see.....The law requires perfection....

See above.