Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Look up those same verses IN ANY VERSION you like.

1 Jn 3:6 NCV.

Let's look at the whole context:

See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God ; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be [sinless/perfect]. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself [becomes less selfish?], just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness ; and sin is lawlessness. [lawlessness is completely given over to the desires of human nature, which is totally bent towards self] 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins ; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins [practices known sin -see verse 4] ; no one who sins [practices sin] has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous [not that we are as righteous as God...if we were there would be no need of maturity and growth. We are righteous as God is "in Christ" - or works of faith give evidence to this fact]; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil ; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed [spirit] abides in him; and he cannot [practice] sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious : anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another ; 12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer ; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God ; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Do you agree with my notes?

[pnattmbtc]

p:You don't understand there's a difference between willful sins and sins of ignorance?

R:So as long as you are ignorant sin causes no damage.....?

[pnattmbtc]

Can't you see how beautifully all these verses are coming together? Once we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, our intents and purposes are to please and obey God, not to gain brownie points, but to glorify Him. We will continue to make mistakes and fall short, but no longer do we do so willfully and intentionally.

This is well stated. It is not the hope of reward or the fear of punishment that motivates the followers of Christ, but the attractive loveliness of His character.

Enoch is a great example of this. Before he received his vision (regarded in "The Book of Enoch", which is quoted by Jude), Enoch wasn't even aware he would be resurrected. He walked with God simply because that's what he wanted to do.

[Guest]

Now that's funny right there og. Can you believe they have been doing this for years on end?

Gerry won a long time ago, since the scripture he quotes actually does back up what he's saying.

Robert just doesn't realize it yet. Maybe in a few more years. If time lasts that long.....

[Gerr]

I could probably add a word here and there, but I generally agree with what you said. For instance, where you said, "purifies himself [becomes less selfish?]", I would add that purification is the removing of every impurity that the Spirit points out, like the works of the flesh mentioned in Gal 5:19-21.

Quote:

"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous [not that we are as righteous as God...if we were there would be no need of maturity and growth. We are righteous as God is "in Christ" - or works of faith give evidence to this fact]

When we "practice righteousness", we are accounted as righteous just as He is righteous by virtue of His merits. While we may be practicing righteousness, I agree that in reality we are NOT as righteous as God. But I believe that John is saying the same thing as Paul is saying in Ro 8:3-4, that everything the law requires is fully satisfied by what Christ has done for them IF the believer is walking "not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Quote:

His seed [spirit] abides in him...

Perhaps a minor point because the Spirit indwells the believer also, but the real Seed, the Seed of Abraham, is Christ, who also indwells the believer.

But anyway, what is your point?

[Twilight]

Quote:

But "when it is in the HEART to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end,..." grace says, "It is enough!" Faith working by love, albeit imperfect love, under grace fulfills ALL the righteousness required by law.

I have some scripture for you Gerry:

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Sometimes when we share, we just have to admit that the other is not here to consider any other point than his own sadly.

But I am enjoying your theology on this point, so there my yet be a purpose for others than Robert, who is not listening to what you are saying, or even considering it.

It doesn't matter what you type, all he can see are the words "legalist".

Mark :-)

[Guest]

I have some scripture for you Gerry:

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Sometimes when we share, we just have to admit that the other is not here to consider any other point than his own sadly.

But I am enjoying your theology on this point, so there my yet be a purpose for others than Robert, who is not listening to what you are saying, or even considering it.

It doesn't matter what you type, all he can see are the words "legalist".

Mark :-)

Wisdom, if I ever saw it.

[Gerr]

Thanks for the advice.

[fccool]

Well, there is a philosophical dilemma on top of Biblical guidelines. I think that it would be inaccurate to say that self-love on the level of knowing your own worth is wrong, especially in case where we are made in the image of God and thus reflect His character.

This issue drives us into inevitable duplicity. On one hand we are supposed to be humble, on the other hand we are supposed to commend and build each other up. So, if everyone builds each other up and they tear the "self" down... then the logical conclusion is that everyone is futile in their attempts of doing so.

I think the proper question would be not whether self-love is wrong, but rather where does it originates from, and how we handle praise and encouragement.

When someone says to you and genuinely acknowledges that "you sing really well"... there are two ways of handling it:

1) Super Spiritual - "Thank you, but God deserves all the glory! Praise be to him in heaven... look how humble I am!"

2) False humility - "Oh no, I really don't sing that great. I don't know what you are talking about!"

3) Recognition of encouragement - "Thank you, I'm really grateful that you like it. Thank you for your kind words"

I tend to think that #3 is the honest way of going about it.

#1 may seem to be appropriate, unless you really understand the underlying context of pharaseical self-aggrandation through Religioneese language. People instinctively think that if they adopt these cliche phraseology, then they will be perceived more spiritual. Thus we have a lot of the people in church speak in terms that they don't understand if you really stop and ask what they mean by it .

I've met a lot of parents that completely tear down children's self-esteem because they don't believe that children should have any. So, these children live in constant fear of rejection and lack of any confidence in their God-given abilities. Then end up lacking boldness, and being comfortable with who they are, but in a sense they are constantly ashamed of who they are because their parents instilled in them that they can't do anything right.

We should instill the idea of self-worth in people around us. It's not the same as selfishness, as it derives from God and other people who invest heavily in us.

[Robert]

We should instill the idea of self-worth in people around us. It's not the same as selfishness, as it derives from God and other people who invest heavily in us.

Self-worth? Christ loved the unlovable....That's how much He thought of us wretched sinners. But in ourselves there's nothing good....Nothing....We are totally bent to self and everything we do, outside Christ, is for our own self-centered lusts. Everything!!

Since there is none rightesous none of us has the right to to demand righteousness from another...

[antcreations]

SIN is AGAPE. SIN is agape love - that special kind of God-like love that is central to the New Testament.

Luke 11:43

2 Tim. 4:10

1 John 2:15

SIN is agape focused on the wrong object/being. To agape anything or anyone more than God is SIN.

[Robert]

SIN is agape focused on the wrong object/being. To agape anything or anyone more than God is SIN.

Agape is not sin. Humans can't produce agape....It is outside our human realm.

[antcreations]

Originally Posted By: antcreations

SIN is agape focused on the wrong object/being. To agape anything or anyone more than God is SIN.

Agape is not sin. Humans can't produce agape....It is outside our human realm.

Luke 11:43

Woe unto you Pharisees for ye love (agapao) the uppermost seats in the synagogues.

2 Timothy 4:10

For Demas hath forsaken me having loved (agapao) this present world and is departed unto Thessalonica Crescens to Galatia Titus unto Dalmatia

1 John 2:15

Love (agapao) not the world neither the things that are in the world If any man love the world the love of the Father is not in him.

*********

It makes no difference whether that object is an external thing, another person - or one's own self. To love (agape) anything or anyone more than God is SIN.

[Robert]

Luke 11:43 Woe unto you Pharisees for ye love (agapao) the uppermost seats in the synagogues.

Before the fall Adam and Eve had a love that only extended outward. Their thoughts...their ambition was to live for the other only. There was no bent back to self.

At the fall Adam and Eve's agape became bent back towards self. Instead of only radiating out towards others, it became bent-to-self. That's self-love. Instead of living for others your thoughts and desires become self-centered. Now you live for your desires...your ambitions...your wants.

The Pharisee were first class SDA. They kept the law - all the rules....But there was one problem. All the law keeping they did was polluted with the love of self. As Jesus said, they did all those outwardly good things so to be seen of men. They loved the best seats...to be called Rabbi, Rabbi. All they did outwardly was for self-centered reasons. Hence, in reality, instead of keeping the law they were actually keeping sin.

You see if you help the little old lady across the street because you hope she remembers you in her will, outwardly you are doing what the law requires, but inwardly (at the motivational level) you are sinning. Agape never does anything for self. Its motive is always for the good of the other person. It desires no reward...no money...no fame, nothing.

That's why Paul says, "If I give all I possess to the poor ...but have not love [agape]", it is meaningless. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking

[antcreations]

Originally Posted By: antcreations

Luke 11:43 Woe unto you Pharisees for ye love (agapao) the uppermost seats in the synagogues.

Before the fall Adam and Eve had a love that only extended outward. Their thoughts...their ambition was to live for the other only. There was no bent back to self.

At the fall Adam and Eve's agape became bent back towards self. Instead of only radiating out towards others, it became bent-to-self. That's self-love. Instead of living for others your thoughts and desires become self-centered. Now you live for your desires...your ambitions...your wants.

The Pharisee were first class SDA. They kept the law - all the rules....But there was one problem. All the law keeping they did was polluted with the love of self. As Jesus said, they did all those outwardly good things so to be seen of men. They loved the best seats...to be called Rabbi, Rabbi. All they did outwardly was for self-centered reasons. Hence, in reality, instead of keeping the law they were actually keeping sin.

You see if you help the little old lady across the street because you hope she remembers you in her will, outwardly you are doing what the law requires, but inwardly (at the motivational level) you are sinning. Agape never does anything for self. Its motive is always for the good of the other person. It desires no reward...no money...no fame, nothing.

That's why Paul says, "If I give all I possess to the poor ...but have not love [agape]", it is meaningless. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking

good point!

we can both then agree that SIN is agape..... just as God's law & character is agape.

[Robert]

we can both then agree that SIN is agape.....

I would word it differently....Sin is agape, bent back to self.

[antcreations]

Originally Posted By: antcreations

we can both then agree that SIN is agape.....

I would word it differently....Sin is agape, bent back to self.

True. True. Good point!

[Robert]

True. True. Good point!

[fccool]

Self-worth? Christ loved the unlovable....That's how much He thought of us wretched sinners. But in ourselves there's nothing good....Nothing....We are totally bent to self and everything we do, outside Christ, is for our own self-centered lusts. Everything!!

Since there is none rightesous none of us has the right to to demand righteousness from another...

I take it you ascribe to Calvin's view of total depravity of mankind?

[Robert]

I take it you ascribe to Calvin's view of total depravity of mankind?

I've never really read Calvin. What do you mean by total depravity?

[fccool]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

[Robert]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

"it [total depravity] means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through man."

I agree with the above

[fccool]

Based on Calvin's idea of total depravity... man can't choose God, so God has to reach out by means of predestination and make that choice. How would you reconcile the idea of total depravity with command to repent and follow God?

[Robert]

Based on Calvin's idea of total depravity... man can't choose God

[fccool]

Robert,

So, let me understand your position.

There's none that seek after God, but Christ enlightens everyone so that they can make that good choice of seeking God.

Can you explain to me what enables one set of sinners to seek after God by seeing the light of Christ, and second set to reject Christ as per their fallen nature?