Self respect or self love - is it a sin?

[Robert]

It would be like people quoting the Bible when it suits their purpose but discarding it when it doesn't. Not a very honest way to handle either the word of God or the Spirit of prophecy, it seems to me.

The Bible is the standard, but since many here will not accept the Bible without the blessings of EGW, I give EGW. BTW, you shouldn't call me dishonest....That's not being nice.

[Robert]

Oh that we could only be spared of this great benefit.

I understand your desire to be spared. After all Christ life exposes your sinful life even though you claim to be a commandment keeper and part of God's remnant church. The fact is you are self-centered and in love with yourself. The spirit of the law condemns such. Are you sure you desire to be under the jurisdiction of the law, that law John tells us is binding on the believer?

"In heaven none will think of self" "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Does Paul ... mean that love has no concern for its own welfare?

Let's say you are business man....How long would you be in business if you practiced agape love as described in the following?

Here's the context:

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love [agape] your enemies ....

How?

34... if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love [agape] your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

Gerry you either failed to answer the above question or you have ignored it.....

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

EGW says that we will "share in Christ's poverty."

"Those who follow him must share his poverty"[

If you follow Christ in His denial of self-interests, self-seeking and self-love in this world dominated by one's preoccupation with self, you'll be without. I don't know why you guys have such a hard time understanding this principle. It's not that difficult. Maybe it's that you don't want to admit that you are not living Christ's life and hence you can't call yourselves commandment keepers.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:3 ESV.

That's the only kind of poverty God ever put a blessing on. Otherwise His people would be burdened with worry. But Christ assured us that if we seek His kingdom first, then ALL the things the unbelievers worry about WILL BE ADDED to them, not taken away.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Let's say you are business man....How long would you be in business if you practiced agape love as described in the following?

Here's the context:

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love [agape] your enemies ....

How?

34... if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love [agape] your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

Gerry you either failed to answer the above question or you have ignored it.....

So now God is in the business of making every believing business man into a failure? Incredible!

What great news you have! Turning every believer homeless and every business man a failure, and every educated person an ignoramus!

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Robert: building one's own wealth - that is sin according to the spirit of the law

pnattmbtc: No. The motivation must come into play here.

Then there's no more to discuss....You have eyes, but you can not see.....

I don't see? I say motivation must come into play, and, for saying this, I cannot see?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Pretty sad. It reminds me of a text.

2Tim 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, (Jack Sequeira) having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Thess 2:10-12

This is decidedly unfair. Sequeira is not here to defend himself. Sequeira hasn't been saying anything. Robert has been saying things, his own idea, and hasn't been quoting Sequeira. Why bring Sequeira into this? And, certainly, inserting his name like in such a negative way into a verse is unconscionable.

[pnattmbtc]

J:It would be like people quoting the Bible when it suits their purpose but discarding it when it doesn't. Not a very honest way to handle either the word of God or the Spirit of prophecy, it seems to me.

R:The Bible is the standard, but since many here will not accept the Bible without the blessings of EGW, I give EGW. BTW, you shouldn't call me dishonest....That's not being nice.

Would that you could be as nice as John!

First of all, he didn't call you dishonest, but said that what you did was like people who quote the Bible when it suits them, which is not a very honest way of handling inspiration. Secondly, he also qualified his remarks by saying "it seems to me."

So he said you were like people who handled inspiration in a way that didn't seem very honest to him. That's a far cry from calling you dishonest, and his point is well taken, too, although the word I would choose would be "straightforward," or "consistent." Or one would simply say that the way you use Ellen White is very odd. You quote little snippets, without regard to context, ignore other things she wrote on the subject, and ignore her own example.

[Robert]

But Christ assured us that if we seek His kingdom first, then ALL the things the unbelievers worry about WILL BE ADDED to them, not taken away.

Here's the context:

22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat [food], nor about your body, what you will put on [clothing]. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 26 If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. 30 For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

What things? Money, good job, nice home, loads of $ in the bank, college degree? No! What does the context say?

Food and clothing!!!!

Let's read on because it gets very interesting:

32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Apparently our treasure is here and in heaven, huh? We want heaven on earth and so we work hard to get our piece of the pie. It's called self-seeking....

Like I said, good thing we aren't under law!!!!

[Robert]

This is decidedly unfair. ....And, certainly, inserting his name like in such a negative way into a verse is unconscionable.

But pnattmbtc, Richard is a righteous law abiding man....He can't do wrong....

[Robert]

You quote little snippets, without regard to context, ignore other things she wrote on the subject, and ignore her own example.

1] She was a sinner....She is not my example.

2] I don't ignore context.

3] She isn't infallible....so it doesn't matter.

The things I quote of her I can defend from the Bible alone.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Food and clothing!!!!

Let's read on because it gets very interesting:

32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Apparently our treasure is here and in heaven, huh? We want heaven on earth and so we work hard to get our piece of the pie. It's called self-seeking....

Like I said, good thing we aren't under law!!!!

An unbeliever living in sin is condemned by the law. If that same sinner living in sin puts on a name tag "Christian", he can go on living in sin and and the Judge shuts His eyes! Incredible thinking!

For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 1 Tim 5:18 ESV.

"Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God." Eccl 5:19 NASB.

[Robert]

The things I quote of her I can defend from the Bible alone.

My favorite is the subject of the RYR. Ellen White has two different points of view. One I agree with, the other I do not.

Somewhere she states that the RYR coveted his possessions, but I can't find that in the context. Let's look at the context now:

Matt 19: 16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which ones?"

And Jesus said,

"You shall not murder,

You shall not commit adultery,

You shall not steal,

You shall not bear false witness,

19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Let's rearrange these commandment so they are in order:

5th: Honor your father and mother

6th: You shall not murder

7th: You shall not commit adultery

8th: You shall not steal

9th: You shall not bear false witness

10th: ?????????

Notice that Christ never repeated the 10th commandment, "you shall not covet". After all it was Christ who said, "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." [Luke 12:15]

He links coveting with one's desire for possessions, but he didn't even mention the 10th commandment to the RYR.

So why did Christ tell the RYR to sell all his possessions if the RYR's sin wasn't coveting?

[Robert]

“The laborer deserves his wages.” 1 Tim 5:18 ESV.

[Gerr]

Look, Robert. If your interpretation of Scripture is correct, God will validate it by convicting others to believe it & preach it. So far I have not seen such validation either in this forum or in any of the authors or speakers I have ever come across with. To paraphrase Gamaliel, if your position is from God, no one can certainly overthrow it. I, for one, would not want to be found opposing God. But if it's not from God, it will also go the way of the mendicants, the stylites, the David Koreshes, Jimmy Jones, and the like. The way it looks to me, you are taking some Bible & EGW statements to the extreme which none of the authors ever intended.

[Gerr]

But since, as you believe, you are not under law, you can do ALL those things, right? Including not selling your possessions to give to the poor?

[Robert]

But since, as you believe, you are not under law, you can do ALL those things, right? Including not selling your possessions to give to the poor?

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

You can't be under law while becoming less selfish. The law allows no sin....

[pnattmbtc]

You quote little snippets, without regard to context, ignore other things she wrote on the subject, and ignore her own example.

1] She was a sinner....She is not my example.

[pnattmbtc]

You can't be under law while becoming less selfish. The law allows no sin.

[Robert]

Let's cut the baloney out.....Are you living Christ's life? Yes...no?

[Robert]

then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.

Fear tactics

[Robert]

R: I don't ignore context.

P: Yes, you do.

Nope...I don't!

[Robert]

When God gives light regarding one's selfishness, one can choose to heed the light and renounce the selfishness. One is not held responsible for that which one is not aware of (assuming one isn't being willfully ignorant).

Oh, the old "I didn't know".....The law doesn't care....The law doesn't care if you are ignorant...it demands selflessness. But yet folks like John insists that we are under the jurisdiction of the law....That is, the law is binding on the believer.

[Robert]

Again, Gerry, I am not telling you to sell your possessions or to live Christ's life to its fullest....However, the law does in the sense it requires only agape love. That's why believers had to be delivered from under the law because the best of us are failing to live the life of Christ....

This doesn't mean that you are not growing in grace....It doesn't mean go to your local pub have a bruskie and watch a naked woman dance....

If you have Christ a change will be seen....Old habits will go...some will be besetting...but as long as life shall last you can never say that you have arrived. We are falling short of Christ life, where He "...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[Woody]

Quote:

It would be like people quoting the Bible when it suits their purporse but discarding it when it doesn't. Not a very honest way to handle either the word of God or the Spirit of prophecy, it seems to me.

Our prophet's writings are not scripture. This is a common error that some SDAs make. Regarding our prophet's writings .... she herself said to compare them to scripture and to toss out those that are not in agreement.