What kind of GOD?

[BobRyan]

What kind of GOD would help a disobedient and rebellious guy who sleeps with prostitutes and deliberately sin?

God "helps" by "Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and jugment". john 16

God "helps" by "Drawing all mankind" unto Himself John 12:32

God "helps" by standing at the door and knocking so that if anyone hears AND CHOOSES to open the door -He will come in (Rev 3).

God "helps" by being the "LIGHT that coming into the world enlightens every one of mankind" John 1.

God "helps" by sending His Son to "be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins ony but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Poor woman-- she has no idea on what dangerous ground she's on.

One of the main reasons God called our church into existence was to warn people of those kinds of beliefs and activities. They need to know the truth. It is dangerous not to know the truth. What we don't know can kill us. Those beliefs can seem so beautiful, and yet they lead many people to the point where they are actually communciating with demons, who they accept as spirits of the dead.

God's eternal word says, "The dead know NOTHING."

[John317]

A very intellectually provocative question!

I would assume that the person who believes in "universalism" would say "Of course. Everyone will be saved."

Of course, it is not true that just because God helps someone, they will be saved.

God's helping someone and saving them are two different things. God helps everyone in one way or another.

But even God can't make someone be saved if he doesn't want to be saved.

We can resist God's grace. He allows us to make that choice.

[miz3]

You ask, "What kind of God?

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 19:26.

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Mark 10:27.

"For nothing is impossible with God.”

Luke 1:37.

"Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

Luke 18:27.

You might not like this [because this concept strikes at the heart of human self-centricity], but it is still none the less true. God is really a show off. God purposefully creates situations in order "show off" His Infinite Greatness.[This concept is known as God Centricity.]

You see God is all about Himself and just how awesome He is. God likes to demonstrate to Himself (He gets the greatest satisfaction) constantly His Infinite Awesomeness!

One of these "Awesome" demonstrations is to create life that can view, know, participate in, etc. this great Awesomeness of God.

We humans are sooooo centered on ourselves and how awesome we think we are that we can't experience consciously the Awesomeness of God. The Bible calls this "darkness".

Yet God is soooo great that Only God can penetrate that "impossible" darkness (See John chapter one). In fact as John chapter one states God penetrates that "impossible darkness" in absolutely every human life that will ever exist on this planet.

That is just the beginning of "WHAT KIND OF GOD"!

I said "beginning" because there is sooooo much more for us humans to learn about this God that constantly demonstrates that He, God, can do the Impossible.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"

Psalm 111:10.

[fccool]

Quote:

God helps everyone, irrespective of what we do. At least He tries to help us. But when we are deliberately sinning, we're not listening and allowing God to do what He wants to do in our lives.

That's true. I do find it ironic that God is more patient with some people than those who claim to know what He really wants. There's a time and place for everything. Yet we somehow think we can do God's job better than He can:

- We think we can do a better job of convincing the world of sin.

- We think we can do a better job of teaching them to follow Gods law.

- We think that we can do a better job of warning people of judgement.

After all, God solely depends on us to do it as fast as we can, so he can finally send Christ to resolve all of the issues in the world.

Sometimes I can see God asking certain people "What are you doing? I've been working in that person's life the whole time they were born, and you think you can do a better job than I? You think you can just walk over to them and make them understand and love me by pointing out what they do wrong?"

But God is even more patient than to ask that. He's patient with the impatient.

Quote:

I don't think it's a matter so much of whether God helps people who are rebellious and deliberately sinning-- the question is are those who are living this way in a saved condition?

Would you be very upset if they were? Would you get to heaven and be very upset if those people are there, and changed their minds somehow and are very loving, forgiving, and astounded at the things that they did with lack of understanding.

I really don't know if that will happen, but if it did... what would be your reaction?

Quote:

If people who are rebellious and disobedient to God and deliberately sinning were to die in that condition, would they be saved in God's kingdom?

Here's a perspective for you:

You are riding with a child in the ambulance. That child is screaming to tears with his skin peeling off from the burns he suffered in burning house he's been just rescued from. He does so for the whole ride, and you are right next to that child.

In that instance you would not blame a child for screaming, you would expect it, and you understand why. You don't blame the child. You understand the causes of his suffering and his subsequent action. You don't blame the child for being unruly. You don't get upset with his parents for shutting him up. You understand the situation, and you have compassion as a result of such understanding.

God sees every single one of us as you see that child with burns. He understands people completely. He understands why they do things.

We don't see everything, and at times we only see a glimpse of the news or rumors, or a surface story about a terrible person that done something on purpose and does not apologize or shows regret. You and I don't know what really is going on. God knows, and he sees the full story.

That's why I believe that you would be surprised when you find the real reasons behind actions of certain people. And, although the action may be "wrong", a lot of people put in such situation may act similarly... Christian or not.

If people truly understand, then perhaps they would look back and say "How stupid could I be??? I see it now!", but they simply did not have a chance to understand.

What if they were given a chance to truly understand and change their mind? Would you be upset that if they were given that chance, that they would be forgiven even the worst type of crimes that they are responsible for?

Quote:

What does the Bible say?

God is not Bible. Bible is about God, but it does not paint a full picture. It paints just enough for us to know and understand certain concepts.

Neither can we point Bible at God and say "But you said that right here!" That happened before, and when God reasoned with them, they blocked it off by the wall of their own understanding and expectation.

[ClubV12]

- We think we can do a better job of convincing the world of sin.

- We think we can do a better job of teaching them to follow Gods law.

- We think that we can do a better job of warning people of judgement.

I've never met a christian who thought for a second that we can do a better job of any of the above better than God. I don't know who these "we" people are. The angels could certainly do a better job than any human, but that is not their appointed work, that is a work left for us to do. As failing as we might be at it, never the less, God will bless the honest sincere effort put forth in His name.

[fccool]

Quote:

God purposefully creates situations in order "show off" His Infinite Greatness.

I don't find that to be true. Especially in light of him not meddling with affairs of my everyday life, and that the way I understand and know his love is through a homeless carpenter reject who was considered a criminal by his own people.

That's not really showing off. That's lifting people up by getting under them in a way that all of us can relate to Him.

I can't really relate to an awesome entity that can create and vaporize our world several million times in a span of micro-second. I can't relate to that. That's beyond me. Infinity is beyond me. Extra-dimentional and invisible is beyond me. Infinite knowledge is beyond me. I don't find it to be merely due to my "self-centeredness". I recognize the awesomeness of God. He's so awesome that the only thing I can do is "awe". I can't describe Him but in some relative human terms.

I can't measure to that, because I don't understand it. It awes me, and it makes me feel truly insignificant, but that's about it.

I don't believe that Gods way is to show off to the point that we feel like grasshopers. He empowers us by treating us as equals (he calls us friends), and getting down to our level and below to show the true nature of love.

Love does not show off. Showing off is pretty self-centered. Love is other-centered.

[fccool]

- We think we can do a better job of convincing the world of sin.

- We think we can do a better job of teaching them to follow Gods law.

- We think that we can do a better job of warning people of judgement.

I've never met a christian who thought for a second that we can do a better job of any of the above better than God. I don't know who these "we" people are. The angels could certainly do a better job than any human, but that is not their appointed work, that is a work left for us to do. As failing as we might be at it, never the less, God will bless the honest sincere effort put forth in His name.

[phkrause]

What kind of GOD would help a disobedient and rebellious guy who sleeps with prostitutes and deliberately sin?

Jesus Christ. This is why he came to reconsile(sp) us back to the Father. So that if we choose to except his sacrifice we wont have to die the second death.

[ClubV12]

fccool says,

"It's not our job to approach people with the Sabbath message."

Here you make a great error, THIS is the very message the Seventh-day Adventist church was raised up for! It is to go to the world, it is to be the final test for all mankind. It is the most fundamental of all messages we have to give to the world.

It may not be YOUR job, but it IS the job of everyone, every member of every church that is a Seventh-day Adventist.

[John317]

What does the Bible say?

Originally Posted By: fccool

God is not Bible. Bible is about God, but it does not paint a full picture. It paints just enough for us to know and understand certain concepts.

Of course God is not the Bible. The Bible is God's self-revelation. It is God Word-- God's communciation-- and God's Word is truth. John 17: 17

2 Tim. 3:15-17-- And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Scriptures reveal to us that people who are deliberately in rebellion against God and living in sin must repent and turn to God in faith and obedience.

1 Cor 6:9-11-- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[John317]

... It's not our job to approach people with the Sabbath message. They won't understand it apart from love, and that's not how God wants to be known.

Of course it is the job of all Seventh-day Adventists who know this beautiful message to tell others about the Bible's teachings on the Sabbath.

And of course it must be communicated in connection with Christ's love for humanity.

The best way to approach people about the Sabbath is to study the Bible with them. Ask them if they would like to study the Bible. It probably shouldn't be about the Sabbath, immediately. The best way is usually to begin with studies on salvation and God's love.

Have you ever given Bible studies to people? Do you enjoy doing it?

It's actually fairly easy to find people who want to study the Bible.

You can even give people a brief Bible study while on the airplane or on the bus. All it sometimes takes is about 10 Bible verses.

Originally Posted By: fccool

It's not our job to convince people of their sins and judgement. If you approach them with "you are a liar and a thief" message, don't be surprised that they reject you.

Yeah, that is not a good approach. I agree.

It is our job to present Bible truth.

I've never even thought of approaching people as you suggest above.

I approach them as I would want to be approached. That's the Golden Rule.

[Tom Wetmore]

There has always been a tendancy among some Christians (which Oprah used to be) to distance themselves from God's Word just enough to come up with a god made in their own image.

in Christ,

Bob

Are you as certain of your own spiritual condition and status with God as you are of Oprah's?

[John317]

What does the Bible say is the basis of a believers' confidence with God? How should Bob have confidence?

I don't think anyone is saying that Oprah is either "lost" or "saved." That's not for us to decide or judge.

What we do know, however, is that if Oprah believes in communicating with "spirits," etc., and if she is practicing this, then she is on very dangerous territory.

[olger]

this is so thought provoking..

Now that you have pondered the question for 13 months, what are your conclusions?

rejoice always,

g

[olger]

Poor woman-- she has no idea on what dangerous ground she's on.

One of the main reasons God called our church into existence was to warn people of those kinds of beliefs and activities. They need to know the truth. It is dangerous not to know the truth. What we don't know can kill us. Those beliefs can seem so beautiful, and yet they lead many people to the point where they are actually communciating with demons, who they accept as spirits of the dead.

God's eternal word says, "The dead know NOTHING."

A hearty Amen, brother John.

G

[ClubV12]

King Saul tried that,,,, didn't work out so well. Some things, based on bible knowledge are pretty easy to see. Calling up the dead is a "no brainer", it doesn't get more spiritually dangerous than that.

[phkrause]

What does the Bible say is the basis of a believers' confidence with God? How should Bob have confidence?

I don't think anyone is saying that Oprah is either "lost" or "saved." That's not for us to decide or judge.

What we do know, however, is that if Oprah believes in communicating with "spirits," etc., and if she is practicing this, then she is on very dangerous territory.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

There has always been a tendancy among some Christians (which Oprah used to be) to distance themselves from God's Word just enough to come up with a god made in their own image.

in Christ,

Bob

Are you as certain of your own spiritual condition and status with God as you are of Oprah's?

The final chapter isn't written yet on Oprah's life. But I would like to know Tom, if a person dies in their rebellion towards God, do you think that they might still be saved? I get the feeling that you lean this direction and that may explain why we seem to be coming from complete opposite directions most times.

I am completely certain that the occult things that Oprah is dabbling with have the ability to cause her eternal loss, unless she miraculously calls on Jesus to permanently deliver her from it.

Ezekiel 33

[12] “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’[13] “When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.[14] “Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right,[15] “if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.[16] “None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

[17] “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the LORD is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair![18] “When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.[19] “But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.[20] “Yet you say, ‘The way of the LORD is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

[fccool]

Quote:

Of course it is the job of all Seventh-day Adventists who know this beautiful message to tell others about the Bible's teachings on the Sabbath.

Quote:

Here you make a great error, THIS is the very message the Seventh-day Adventist church was raised up for! It is to go to the world, it is to be the final test for all mankind. It is the most fundamental of all messages we have to give to the world.

There's a difference between teaching, and showing. We should not be "teaching" them. We should be showing them. That was the pitfall of the disobedient Judaism. They thought that they were really great nation of people, and that they are to teach everyone around them with their exceptional knowledge and understanding. That's why they were trained to be lawyers who understand and know the law, what would be just enough, what would not be enough, what people could and could not do, or how to use loopholes to avoid certain things. But they were to show.

That's how we are to reach people. Bible studies are great, but most of the people don't come to God through Bible studies. Most of the people come to God through relationships that they maintain with people who love them.

[phkrause]

There's a difference between teaching, and showing. We should not be "teaching" them. We should be showing them. That was the pitfall of the disobedient Judaism. They thought that they were really great nation of people, and that they are to teach everyone around them with their exceptional knowledge and understanding. That's why they were trained to be lawyers who understand and know the law, what would be just enough, what would not be enough, what people could and could not do, or how to use loopholes to avoid certain things. But they were to show.

That's how we are to reach people. Bible studies are great, but most of the people don't come to God through Bible studies. Most of the people come to God through relationships that they maintain with people who love them.

I do agree with you here, but there are many ways of witnessing. There are those that come in after evangelistic meetings. These are the ones that really like to hear doctrines. Than there are those that like to give out literture. Bible studies, etc. Than there are those that witness by example, and allow people to come and ask them about there faith. I believe that EGW speaks about us being medical missionaries to others and witnessing that way.

[BobRyan]

There has always been a tendancy among some Christians (which Oprah used to be) to distance themselves from God's Word just enough to come up with a god made in their own image.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: antcreations

What kind of GOD would help a disobedient and rebellious guy who sleeps with prostitutes and deliberately sin?

a God Who loves us and tries to reach us anyway He can?

"For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

If people who are rebellious and disobedient to God and deliberately sinning were to die in that condition, would they be saved in God's kingdom?

What does the Bible say?

"But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much." Matthew 5:44-46 NLT

"The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."2 Peter 3:9 NLT

"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?"Ezekiel 33:10 NLT

"...with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,"2 Timothy 2:25 NASB

Since repentance is a gift of God, it would appear the only ones who will not enter the kingdom of heaven are those who refuse to accept the gift.

"“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."John 3:16 NLT Bold mine LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

#469687

No wonder the church I now belong to, distanted itself from me when I taped one of her trips into the African community for humanitarian purposes, and presented it for Sabbath School. Of course that was some time before Oprah revealed there were numerous ways to the Kingdom besides Jesus.

God blesses!