What kind of GOD?

[LifeHiscost]

But even God can't make someone be saved if he doesn't want to be saved.

We can resist God's grace. He allows us to make that choice.

I would only change the bold "can't", to the word "won't", as One Who will not take away our free choice.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

You see God is all about Himself and just how awesome He is. God likes to demonstrate to Himself (He gets the greatest satisfaction) constantly His Infinite Awesomeness!

It is obvious from this above opinion, there is absolutely no sensitivity to the condescending humility of sacrificial denial by the willing death of Jesus, permitted by our Father in Heaven.

"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”" Matthew 20:28 NLT

"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”"

John 10:17-19 NASB

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

- We think we can do a better job of convincing the world of sin.

- We think we can do a better job of teaching them to follow Gods law.

- We think that we can do a better job of warning people of judgement.

I've never met a christian who thought for a second that we can do a better job of any of the above better than God. I don't know who these "we" people are. The angels could certainly do a better job than any human, but that is not their appointed work, that is a work left for us to do. As failing as we might be at it, never the less, God will bless the honest sincere effort put forth in His name.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

fccool says,

"It's not our job to approach people with the Sabbath message."

Here you make a great error, THIS is the very message the Seventh-day Adventist church was raised up for! It is to go to the world, it is to be the final test for all mankind. It is the most fundamental of all messages we have to give to the world.

It may not be YOUR job, but it IS the job of everyone, every member of every church that is a Seventh-day Adventist.

"And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen."Mark 16:20 NLT

"When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand."Ezekiel 3:18 NKJV

God blesses!

[John317]

[Bravus]

I would have thought that the view that God loves and helps everyone is pretty uncontroversial.

Sure, people can and do reject that help. But we always feel constrained to rush in with that caveat.

It'd be nice, sometimes, if we could just leave it at 'God loves and helps everyone'.

[Overaged]

I would have thought that the view that God loves and helps everyone is pretty uncontroversial.

Sure, people can and do reject that help. But we always feel constrained to rush in with that caveat.

It'd be nice, sometimes, if we could just leave it at 'God loves and helps everyone'.

[miz3]

Quote:

God purposefully creates situations in order "show off" His Infinite Greatness.

I don't find that to be true. Especially in light of him not meddling with affairs of my everyday life, and that the way I understand and know his love is through a homeless carpenter reject who was considered a criminal by his own people.

That's not really showing off. That's lifting people up by getting under them in a way that all of us can relate to Him.

I can't really relate to an awesome entity that can create and vaporize our world several million times in a span of micro-second. I can't relate to that. That's beyond me. Infinity is beyond me. Extra-dimentional and invisible is beyond me. Infinite knowledge is beyond me. I don't find it to be merely due to my "self-centeredness". I recognize the awesomeness of God. He's so awesome that the only thing I can do is "awe". I can't describe Him but in some relative human terms.

I can't measure to that, because I don't understand it. It awes me, and it makes me feel truly insignificant, but that's about it.

I don't believe that Gods way is to show off to the point that we feel like grasshopers. He empowers us by treating us as equals (he calls us friends), and getting down to our level and below to show the true nature of love.

Love does not show off. Showing off is pretty self-centered. Love is other-centered.

I respectfully disagree.

In that "humbleness" although not seen on the surface is an awesome God "showing off".

In Jesus Christ the lowly, homeless, criminal God demonstrated His Awesomeness and Greatness to destroy sin, and the ways of this world.

Could God have done it with great fanfare and demonstrations like Mt. Sinai? Yes, but God in this case chose the "lowly, humble, homeless, criminal" to do His Infinite Work and bring Him the greatest possible honor.

Although what you say sounds soooo good and appeals to many of us humans it is only a "surface" understanding of God and the way God operates.

Bible repeatedly cites the Greatness and Glory of God. In fact the Bible shows that this is what God is all about!

God is not about trying to say "I am one of you". This is to bring God down to Hell. This is to show God the greatest of disrespect. I know you don't mean it to be "disrespect", but it is none the less "disrespect". In fact you mean it "complement" God. But God is not complemented by bring Him down to our level.

God understands our level without having to come down to our level. God does not have to experience our level to understand and know (really know) what our experience is like.

As we have cited in the Bible "nothing, absolutely nothing, is impossible with God".

That includes seeking and getting His Own Glory through humble means.

"When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”

John 11:4.

"Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified."

John 12:23.

"Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

John 12:28.

"When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."

John 13:31-32.

So you see the whole point of Jesus Christ's existence, life, death and resurrection had only only ONE REAL PURPOSE:

TO GLORIFY GOD!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

- We think we can do a better job of convincing the world of sin.

- We think we can do a better job of teaching them to follow Gods law.

- We think that we can do a better job of warning people of judgement.

I've never met a christian who thought for a second that we can do a better job of any of the above better than God. I don't know who these "we" people are. The angels could certainly do a better job than any human, but that is not their appointed work, that is a work left for us to do. As failing as we might be at it, never the less, God will bless the honest sincere effort put forth in His name.

Here's our responsibility:

Quote:

Now I want to make clear for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve

That's the heart of the Gospel. That's the heart of our love message. Everything else is not our job to do. It's not our job to approach people with the Sabbath message. They won't understand it apart from love, and that's not how God wants to be known.

It's not our job to convince people of their sins and judgement. If you approach them with "you are a liar and a thief" message, don't be surprised that they reject you.

Quote:

Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come He will convict the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment; of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment because the ruler of this world is judged.

Our job is to share the message of love. Love sheds light on sin. It points it out without saying a word, and it shows the necessity of judgement. It will show the necessity of the Sabbath, and it will show the necessity of understanding proper doctrine. It's a natural progression, but it can't be understood without love in the middle. And that's primary job, to show that love. If we have it, then it's not a problem at all. It's natural.

The everlasting Gospel carries that context of pointing back to God who created everything and that judgement is coming, but it does so through love, not through "police law enforcement service note".

I recently find our approach to gospel as this "court notice" delivery. We deliver it and say "Here, you've been served. From now on you know about it and you are responsible." That's not Gospel. That's not Gospel attitude.

My point was that with one move like that, we can completely misrepresent a certain image of God was building in that person's mind. Just like Pharisees of old. They really made God look like Satan to the point that people were afraid to take a step in the wrong direction. That's why Christ called them "Children of the Devil". They were in fact preventing people from truly knowing and understanding God.

We should not make the same mistake.

Although we may differ in regard to other things.

I do agree wholeheartedly with this message which I cited above. I think you have pegged the SDA issues in regard to the Gospel extremely well.

[ClubV12]

Thats a really sad post miz3, it's painful to see our Lord described in such a careless manner.

[miz3]

Thats a really sad post miz3, it's painful to see our Lord described in such a careless manner.

"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”"

John 10:17-19 NASB

Look at this statement from the Mouth of Jesus Christ. It is a very arrogant statement. It is all about "I".

"I lay down my life".

"I may take it again".

"No one has taken it away from me".

"I lay ti down on My own initiative."

"I have authority to lay it down".

"I have authority to take it up again".

This text is just DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS!

[ClubV12]

In a vision, the "Two Crowns" Sister White saw a group of people reaching for crowns. Some for earthly crowns, some for heavenly, some for both. Those reaching for the heavenly crowns had black balls hurled at them. The black balls were the insults and taunts from the multitude. Those who took their eyes off the heavenly crown, to look and see from where the black balls came, had their robes stained by them.

I'm learning, slowly, to ignore those hurling the black balls that would stain my garment. It IS stained, but it CAN be washed clean again. I choose to keep my eyes fixed on the prize, with Gods help.

[miz3]

In a vision, the "Two Crowns" Sister White saw a group of people reaching for crowns. Some for earthly crowns, some for heavenly, some for both. Those reaching for the heavenly crowns had black balls hurled at them. The black balls were the insults and taunts from the multitude. Those who took their eyes off the heavenly crown, to look and see from where the black balls came, had their robes stained by them.

I'm learning, slowly, to ignore those hurling the black balls that would stain my garment. It IS stained, but it CAN be washed clean again. I choose to keep my eyes fixed on the prize, with Gods help.

No black balls.

JUST SCRIPTURE WILL I HURL AT YOU.

[ClubV12]

Not at me, miz3, I fear you are hurling them at the Lord, and that makes me sad.

[miz3]

Not at me, miz3, I fear you are hurling them at the Lord, and that makes me sad.

I am afraid you do not understand what God says about Himself in the Bible.

[Overaged]

This text is just DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS!

Club V12 is not the one who misunderstands what God says about Himself in the Bible. Labelling God as you have here is what shows a lack of understanding - certainly it cannot be denied that your label is very subjective, meaning not necessarily supported by Scripture.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This text is just DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS!

Club V12 is not the one who misunderstands what God says about Himself in the Bible. Labelling God as you have here is what shows a lack of understanding - certainly it cannot be denied that your label is very subjective, meaning not necessarily supported by Scripture.

Overaged, here is another text where God talks about Himself in exactly the manner in which I stated DRIPPING WHITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

"“This is what the LORD says to his anointed,

to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of

to subdue nations before him

and to strip kings of their armor,

to open doors before him

so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you

and will level the mountains[a];

I will break down gates of bronze

and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,

riches stored in secret places,

so that you may know that I am the LORD,

the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,

of Israel my chosen,

I summon you by name

and bestow on you a title of honor,

though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;

apart from me there is no God.

I will strengthen you,

though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun

to the place of its setting

men may know there is none besides me.

I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I bring prosperity and create disaster;

I, the LORD, do all these things.

8 “You heavens above, rain down righteousness;

let the clouds shower it down.

Let the earth open wide,

let salvation spring up,

let righteousness grow with it;

I, the LORD, have created it.

9 “Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,

to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.

Does the clay say to the potter,

‘What are you making?’

Does your work say,

‘He has no hands’?

10 Woe to him who says to his father,

‘What have you begotten?’

or to his mother,

‘What have you brought to birth?’

11 “This is what the LORD says—

the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:

Concerning things to come,

do you question me about my children,

or give me orders about the work of my hands?

12 It is I who made the earth

and created mankind upon it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:

I will make all his ways straight.

He will rebuild my city

and set my exiles free,

but not for a price or reward,

says the LORD Almighty.”

14 This is what the LORD says:

“The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,[c]

and those tall Sabeans—

they will come over to you

and will be yours;

they will trudge behind you,

coming over to you in chains.

They will bow down before you

and plead with you, saying,

‘Surely God is with you, and there is no other;

there is no other god.’”

15 Truly you are a God who hides himself,

O God and Savior of Israel.

16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;

they will go off into disgrace together.

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD

with an everlasting salvation;

you will never be put to shame or disgraced,

to ages everlasting.

18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

“I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret,

from somewhere in a land of darkness;

I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,

‘Seek me in vain.’

I, the LORD, speak the truth;

I declare what is right.

20 “Gather together and come;

assemble, you fugitives from the nations.

Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,

who pray to gods that cannot save.

21 Declare what is to be, present it—

let them take counsel together.

Who foretold this long ago,

who declared it from the distant past?

Was it not I, the LORD?

And there is no God apart from me,

a righteous God and a Savior;

there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone

are righteousness and strength.’”

All who have raged against him

will come to him and be put to shame.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel

will be found righteous and will exult.

Isaiah Chapter 45.

In verse one of Isaiah chapter 45 God talks about Cyrus as if Cyrus is His puppet and God is the Puppeteer.

In verses two through five God states all the things He will do for Cyrus.

I will.........

1. go before you.

2. break down gates.

3. cut through bars of iron.

4. give you the treasures of darkness.

5. summon you by name.

6. bestow on you a title of honor.

7. summon you by name.

8. strengthen you.

So much for Cyrus "independence" and "choice".

Now why does God do all these things for Cyrus? God tells us. Let me list them.

1. So that you may know that I am the Lord. Verse three.

2. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse five.

3. Apart from me there is no God. Verse five.

4. Men may know there is none beside me. Verse six.

5. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse six. (repeats verse five).

6. I form the light and create darkness. Verse seven.

7. I bring prosperity and I create disaster. Verse seven.

8. I the Lord do all these things. Verse seven.

9. I the Lord have created it. Verse eight.

What did God create in verse eight:

a. heavens above.

b. rain down righteousness.

c. clouds that shower.

d. the earth open wide.

e. salvation spring up.

f. righteousness grow with it.

Just these eight verses of Isaiah chapter forty-five is enough to make you head spin with the DRIPPING WHITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

As we read on it gets better and better. God is very explicit.

Why do you REJECT the plain Word of God about who He is and how God sees and feels about Himself?

Does the FACT that God is DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS bother you?

NEXT POST WE WILL LOOK MORE AT THIS MARVELOUS CHAPTER FROM THE BIBLE.

Why does such a FACT bother you?

[John317]

Because it's the Devil who wants people to think of God and Christ as being "arrogant" and "self-centered."

God is actually anything but "self-centered."

That is a characterization of God that Satan has. Is Satan right, in your view?

[John317]

...

In verse one of Isaiah chapter 45 God talks about Cyrus as if Cyrus is His puppet and God is the Puppeteer.

In verses two through five God states all the things He will do for Cyrus.

I will.........

1. go before you.

2. break down gates.

3. cut through bars of iron.

4. give you the treasures of darkness.

5. summon you by name.

6. bestow on you a title of honor.

7. summon you by name.

8. strengthen you.

So much for Cyrus "independence" and "choice".

Now why does God do all these things for Cyrus? God tells us. Let me list them.

1. So that you may know that I am the Lord. Verse three.

2. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse five.

3. Apart from me there is no God. Verse five.

4. Men may know there is none beside me. Verse six.

5. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse six. (repeats verse five).

6. I form the light and create darkness. Verse seven.

7. I bring prosperity and I create disaster. Verse seven.

8. I the Lord do all these things. Verse seven.

9. I the Lord have created it. Verse eight.

What did God create in verse eight:

a. heavens above.

b. rain down righteousness.

c. clouds that shower.

d. the earth open wide.

e. salvation spring up.

f. righteousness grow with it.

Just these eight verses of Isaiah chapter forty-five is enough to make you head spin with the DRIPPING WHITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

As we read on it gets better and better. God is very explicit.

Why do you REJECT the plain Word of God about who He is and how God sees and feels about Himself?

Does the FACT that God is DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS bother you?

The problem with your analysis and conclusions is that they are exactly the opposite of what Jesus showed us about God.

John 1:17, 18-- For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [revealed] him [or: made him known].

When we look at Jesus, we don't see a God who is "dripping with arrogance and self-centeredness." On the contrary, we see a God who is dripping with humility and agape/love for all of His creation.

Your problem is that you are taking what the Bible says and using it to say the very things that Satan wants people to think about God.

It is Satan who wants people to believe God hasn't made them as free moral agents and that they have no choice. It is Satan who wants people to believe that God is unfair and unjust. You appear to be siding with Satan.

What is the real reason that the Bible says what it does in Isaiah 40 to 45?

[miz3]

In verse one of Isaiah chapter 45 God talks about Cyrus as if Cyrus is His puppet and God is the Puppeteer.

In verses two through five God states all the things He will do for Cyrus.

I will.........

1. go before you.

2. break down gates.

3. cut through bars of iron.

4. give you the treasures of darkness.

5. summon you by name.

6. bestow on you a title of honor.

7. summon you by name.

8. strengthen you.

So much for Cyrus "independence" and "choice".

Now why does God do all these things for Cyrus? God tells us. Let me list them.

1. So that you may know that I am the Lord. Verse three.

2. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse five.

3. Apart from me there is no God. Verse five.

4. Men may know there is none beside me. Verse six.

5. I am the Lord there is no other. Verse six. (repeats verse five).

6. I form the light and create darkness. Verse seven.

7. I bring prosperity and I create disaster. Verse seven.

8. I the Lord do all these things. Verse seven.

9. I the Lord have created it. Verse eight.

What did God create in verse eight:

a. heavens above.

b. rain down righteousness.

c. clouds that shower.

d. the earth open wide.

e. salvation spring up.

f. righteousness grow with it.

Just these eight verses of Isaiah chapter forty-five is enough to make you head spin with the DRIPPING WHITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

As we read on it gets better and better. God is very explicit.

Why do you REJECT the plain Word of God about who He is and how God sees and feels about Himself?

Does the FACT that God is DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS bother you?

[John317]

I would have thought that the view that God loves and helps everyone is pretty uncontroversial.

Sure, people can and do reject that help. But we always feel constrained to rush in with that caveat.

It'd be nice, sometimes, if we could just leave it at 'God loves and helps everyone'.

God's love should be uncontroversial. Unfortunately it is not. There are millions of people who don't believe that.

Similarly, God's justice and righteousness should also be uncontroversial, but we know it is not.

Both are essential aspects of God's character. In fact, God's love is also His justice. His love and justice can't be separated if we want to have a biblical view of God. The cross shows us both.

[John317]

Yes, God is "humble", "loving", in the way you stated but God is also ARROGANT, SELF-CENTERED in the way Isaiah chapter forty-five states. God is so AWESOME that God can and is ALL THINGS.

To us this may seem contradictory. However, there is no contradiction within God that He is ALL THOSE THINGS. Thus, God is ARROGANT AND HUMBLE AT THE SAME TIME.

You have claimed that the Bible does not teach that humans are free moral agents because no one can show you where the Bible says this directly. That is your argument.

Now you are also claiming that the Bible teaches that God is "arrogant" and "self-centered."

Where does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible speak of God as "arrogant" and "self-centered"?

You are taking concepts that the Bible uses and making them say things about God that are not true.

"Arrogant" and "self-centered" are never positive descriptions. Those are descriptions of Satan's character.Satan projects his own attitude and character upon God. For instance, Satan is the world's greatest liar but he claims God lies.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Yes, God is "humble", "loving", in the way you stated but God is also ARROGANT, SELF-CENTERED in the way Isaiah chapter forty-five states. God is so AWESOME that God can and is ALL THINGS.

To us this may seem contradictory. However, there is no contradiction within God that He is ALL THOSE THINGS. Thus, God is ARROGANT AND HUMBLE AT THE SAME TIME.

You have claimed that the Bible does not teach that humans are free moral agents because no one can show you where the Bible says this directly. That is your argument.

Now you are also claiming that the Bible teaches that God is "arrogant" and "self-centered."

Where does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible speak of God as "arrogant" and "self-centered"?

You are taking concepts that the Bible uses and making them say things about God that are not true.

"Arrogant" and "self-centered" are never positive descriptions. Those are descriptions of Satan's character.Satan projects his own attitude and character upon God. For instance, Satan is the world's greatest liar but he claims God lies.

To humans the terms "Arrogant" and "self-centered" are never ever positive because in the human entity this is exactly true.

You then are asserting that because such terms are ALWAYS BAD IN HUMANS, THEN THEY MUST ALSO BE BAD IN GOD.

That is not true because you are projecting human limitations on to God who has no limitations.

For example:

The Bible says that humans are not to "judge" because God is the only Judge.

Thus, "judging" is ALWAYS bad for humans, but for God this is a GOOD THING!

So your argument that because it is bad for humans to be such and such does not mean that is bad for God, in fact like the "judgment thing" it actually could be a very perfect positive for God to be such and such.

What you have demonstrated is a very common fallacy within human thinking about God and the Bible. That fallacy is projecting human limitations and negatives as something that could never ever be apart of God. Isaiah chapter forty-five smashes this fallacy.

Thus, if it is never good for the human to be arrogant than certainly God could not be arrogant, or so the "questionable logic" goes.

This is not true, because we are limiting God to the same limitations as the human entity and God is never ever limited by such constraints. Such logic feeds into the "human centric" view of God and the "human centric" view of the Bible.

Thus, when we are confronted by the Words of Isaiah chapter fort-five we either tend reject them outright or to commit to some fancy dance around the wording, or say God didn't mean it that way because Jesus Christ was 'always humble'.

Yet if you read the first post about God's arrogance that I wrote I took the direct words of Jesus Christ which indeed do DRIP WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

Christ was not being "humble" when He uttered those words.

[skyblue888]

Miz3 you never cease to amaze me! How dare you say that God is arrogant and self-centered in the light of the cross! You are beginning to echo the words of the great rebel.

sky

[miz3]

Miz3 you never cease to amaze me! How dare you say that God is arrogant and self-centered in the light of the cross! You are beginning to echo the words of the great rebel.

sky

I guess if you are correct then Isaiah chapter forty-five is wrong.

I will take Isaiah!