What kind of GOD?

[skyblue888]

What do you read in Isaiah 45 that would warrant you to picture God as arrogant and self-centered? We must be careful when we read any part of the Bible for God's thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways for "As the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9.

sky

[Lysimachus]

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18)

Miz3

[Overaged]

It's a tually not a fa t. it is a claim made by you and what u present is just like the full and pry riddle where one says cup is half full and other says it's half empty. You say God is arrogant and others say he is confident. I am confident in God that ha has drawn, is drawing me with "everlasting love" as He states it in the Bible. Your fallacious. Laims here do not "bother" me, they merely tell me that there is something more positive and provable that I can offer. 

[Overaged]

[ClubV12]

Just checking up on this thread to see if you guys are still beating your head against the wall trying to reason with miz3.

Apparently so,,, carry on. :)

[John317]

[quote name="miz3

"]

I guess if you are correct then Isaiah chapter forty-five is wrong.

I will take Isaiah!

Isaiah 45 does not say that God is arrogant and self-centered.

That's your misinterpretation of it. That's like looking at the cross and saying the Bible teaches that God executed Christ. Some people do that but they're getting the wrong message, and so are you.

[John317]

Hope springs eternal. I almost never give up. lol

[cheddar]

Well spoken Miz!

Apparently most have forgotten that Jesus Christ was the invisible God who led the Israelites all those long centuries.

Back in those days he wasn’t always nice and kind and forgiving. He was referred to as a jealous God and even his name was Jealous!

I bet if you ask most adventist sheeple if jealousy was a good or bad character trait they would say bad. They obviously don’t know God.

[miz3]

Thank you cheddar. I see that you have an excellent grasp of the situation.

[miz3]

Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,

to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.

Does the clay say to the potter,

‘What are you making?’

Does your work say,

‘He has no hands’?

10 Woe to him who says to his father,

‘What have you begotten?’

or to his mother,

‘What have you brought to birth?’

11 “This is what the LORD says—

the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:

Concerning things to come,

do you question me about my children,

or give me orders about the work of my hands?

12 It is I who made the earth

and created mankind upon it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:

I will make all his ways straight.

He will rebuild my city

and set my exiles free,

but not for a price or reward,

says the LORD Almighty.”

14 This is what the LORD says:

“The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,[c]

and those tall Sabeans—

they will come over to you

and will be yours;

they will trudge behind you,

coming over to you in chains.

They will bow down before you

and plead with you, saying,

‘Surely God is with you, and there is no other;

there is no other god.’”

15 Truly you are a God who hides himself,

O God and Savior of Israel.

16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;

they will go off into disgrace together.

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD

with an everlasting salvation;

you will never be put to shame or disgraced,

to ages everlasting.

18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

“I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret,

from somewhere in a land of darkness;

I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,

‘Seek me in vain.’

I, the LORD, speak the truth;

I declare what is right.

20 “Gather together and come;

assemble, you fugitives from the nations.

Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,

who pray to gods that cannot save.

21 Declare what is to be, present it—

let them take counsel together.

Who foretold this long ago,

who declared it from the distant past?

Was it not I, the LORD?

And there is no God apart from me,

a righteous God and a Savior;

there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone

are righteousness and strength.’”

All who have raged against him

will come to him and be put to shame.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel

will be found righteous and will exult."

Isaiah 45:9-25.

Let us look more at Isaiah chapter 45 in order to know more about God, the God of heaven.

What does God say about Himself.

1. Verse nine is a clear threat to all the creation. It says "Woe"! Woe to whom? Woe to all that God has made, which is everything. I would say God is especially targeting the human creation most of all.

I would say anyone who can threaten in that manner is pretty arrogant and self-centered. In fact I would say that it is established FACT!

2. The rest of verse nine tells us humans that God is the potter and He jolly well does what He wants while we humans (the clay) must just sit there and take whatever God dishes out.

Again I would call that very definitely arrogant and self-centered.

In addition it pretty well seals the deal as to how much "freedom apart from God" we really have. THAT WOULD BE ZERO!

I told (warned) you that you are not going to like what God says to you. You are not going to like it because it cuts deeply and completely across the "human self-centeredness". Such words make the human "NOTHING" and God "EVERYTHING".

Human nature does not like such a balance because the human soul craves "recognition" and "credit" for doing something. That is why human theology is always crying we:

a. have to have faith to be saved.

b. have to choose God or we are lost.

In this way the human entity becomes the central pivot around which everything must turn. In "HUMAN CENTRICITY" everything hinges on what the human does, is, and/or believes. In this failed theology without the human response God is "helpless".

Please! THAT IS JUST SO BACKWARDS.

In Isaiah chapter forty-five God completely debunks this "HUMAN CENTRIC" view of reality.

Thus, the potter and the clay illustration is given by God to clear up all doubts about the "nothingness" of the human entity.

The human entity exists only to BE A TOOL OF GOD IN GOD'S DEMONSTRATION OF HOW GREAT AND AWESOME HE IS.

3. In verse ten God is saying "Woe" again. Woe to those who question God who is the very LIFE of all humans. God is our Father and Mother and without Him we would never have been begotten.

Thus, God is telling us humans that we have ZERO STANDING and that God has ALL THE STANDING.

Again and again, God is displaying His Arrogance and His Self-Centeredness.

4. Verse eleven is stunning. God states that He is Israel's Maker (that message to you and I says that God is our Maker).

As our Maker, we humans do not have any right to question God at all about anything, much less the future or to give orders about what God has made.

Again, very Arrogant and Self-Centered.

God is telling us repeatedly that everything is God and nothing is about us. In other words God does not do things for us, but rather does everything for God and to demonstrate how Great God Is. We humans are just "tools" used by God to that end.

5. "I made the earth".

6. "I made mankind to be on the earth".

7. "I stretched out the heavens".

8. "I gathered the starry host".

9. "I will raise up Cyrus".

10. "Cyrus will rebuild my city" [Cyrus will have no choice in the matter].

11. Cyrus will set my captives free only because I say so not because I paid ransom.

This gets us down to verse thirteen of Isaiah chapter forty-five.

All of it DRIPPING WITH ARROGANCE AND SELF-CENTEREDNESS.

[skyblue888]

Isaiah 45:19,23 "I the Lord speak righteousness." "The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness."

Proverbs 8:8 "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness."

Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God.

"There is no unrighteousness in Him." Ps.92:15.

Miz3, You are right in saying that it was Christ who was with the Israelites in the Old Testament. He had to deal with them according to the choices that they made. They chose to defend themselves with the sword which was contrary to God's way. They rejected Him as king and wanted to be led by a man like the other nations and they fought like the other nations. But Christ did not abandon them in spite of their lack of faith. He gave them instructions which were in harmony with their ways in the hope that they would see the errors of their ways but they rejected the light until they said, "We have no king but Ceasar" and they crucified Christ.

sky

[miz3]

Isaiah 45:19,23 "I the Lord speak righteousness." "The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness."

Proverbs 8:8 "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness."

Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God.

"There is no unrighteousness in Him." Ps.92:15.

Miz3, You are right in saying that it was Christ who was with the Israelites in the Old Testament. He had to deal with them according to the choices that they made. They chose to defend themselves with the sword which was contrary to God's way. They rejected Him as king and wanted to be led by a man like the other nations and they fought like the other nations. But Christ did not abandon them in spite of their lack of faith. He gave them instructions which were in harmony with their ways in the hope that they would see the errors of their ways but they rejected the light until they said, "We have no king but Ceasar" and they crucified Christ.

sky

This is a hard passage for SDA to swallow. We SDA are very "arrogant" about who we are as a people. But when it comes to God, "OH, no God cannot be arrogant". God is not "arrogant" because God is Love.

In God those two things are not mutually exclusive. God is Love, but God is also Arrogant!

In humans those two things are indeed mutually exclusive. We cannot be love and arrogant simultaneously. In fact arrogance is very unattractive and detrimental in the human entity.

However, "Arrogance" in God is a highly "attractive" trait.

Humans tend to bring God down to their level. We tend to make God to be a "super human" or some such caricature that we create in our own minds.

The Scripture creates a completely different picture of God then most humans actually know. This is because we don't read the Scripture to "know what and who God actually is".

We tend to accept either what we have been told about God or the little we read about Him, or what bits and pieces we get while trying to wrestle with other issues.

I have seen precious few who read the Bible with the sole purpose of "knowing God and understanding what He is about".

SDA have no such doctrine regarding God. SDA have a lot of doctrine about the human entity.

To me this is the main reason why we actually understand so very little or even get completely wrong the other "doctrines" that we find so precious.

All of Isaiah chapter forty-five is stunning in its portrayal of God in God's own Words displaying His Arrogance and His focus on Self (self-centered).

[ClubV12]

"We SDA.."

I protest the use of "we", you can't possibly belong to the same group I do.

Christian maybe, but no Adventist.

[skyblue888]

"There is no unrighteousness in Him." Ps.92:15.

"Righteousness is right doing." C.O.L.312.

[miz3]

In the human arrogance is a sin.

In God Arrogance is Righteousness.

In the human jealousy is a sin.

In God jealousy is a Righteous thing.

In the human to be centered on self is a deadly sin.

In God to be self centered is what everything is about and it is most Righteous and most attractive.

Humans worshiping themselves is a most deadly sin.

God worshiping Himself and demanding others to worship Him (the height of selfishness and self-centeredness) is the Most Holy of Acts.

THESE ARE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES THAT HUMANS FAIL TO BELIEVE AND APPLY.

[miz3]

"We SDA.."

I protest the use of "we", you can't possibly belong to the same group I do.

Christian maybe, but no Adventist.

Get used to it. We are SDA Brothers.

[ClubV12]

Uh,,, no we are not, believers are brothers. It would be best to "deliver you to Satan" so that you may see the folly of your ways and come to an understanding of the truth. THAT is love in action.

[miz3]

Uh,,, no we are not, believers are brothers. It would be best to "deliver you to Satan" so that you may see the folly of your ways and come to an understanding of the truth. THAT is love in action.

With you by my side.

[John317]

Apparently most have forgotten that Jesus Christ was the invisible God who led the Israelites all those long centuries.

Back in those days he wasn’t always nice and kind and forgiving. He was referred to as a jealous God and even his name was Jealous!

Nobody has forgotten that Jesus Christ was often referred to as "Jehovah," or "Yahweh." Jesus Christ is God, the Eternal, the Self-existent One.

Everything God did and said was the result of His love.

The name "Jealous" doesn't mean the same thing as the word that is commonly used to describe human attitudes and behavior.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I bet if you ask most adventist sheeple if jealousy was a good or bad character trait they would say bad. They obviously don't know God.

First, why "Adventist sheeple"? And why the remark, "They obviously don't know God"? This is degnigrating an entire group of people who you do not know. These things are best left out of the discussion on the Forum. Saying, "They don't know God," is exactly the kind of judgment of people that the Bible condemns when it says we should not judge. It's dealing with people's motives and hearts and minds, something that we cannot know.

I won't say these kinds of things about you and I am asking you to show the same courtesy to others on this board.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I bet if you ask most adventist sheeple if jealousy was a good or bad character trait they would say bad. They obviously don't know God.

Again, the Bible's use of "jealousy" to describe God is different from human jealousy.

God's "jealousy" is a good character trait when used in reference to God. It is an aspect that cannot be separated from His agape/love.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

Apparently most have forgotten that Jesus Christ was the invisible God who led the Israelites all those long centuries.

Back in those days he wasn’t always nice and kind and forgiving. He was referred to as a jealous God and even his name was Jealous!

Nobody has forgotten that Jesus Christ was often referred to as "Jehovah," or "Yahweh." Jesus Christ is God, the Eternal, the Self-existent One.

Everything God did and said was the result of His love.

The name "Jealous" doesn't mean the same thing as the word that is commonly used to describe human attitudes and behavior.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I bet if you ask most adventist sheeple if jealousy was a good or bad character trait they would say bad. They obviously don't know God.

First, why "Adventist sheeple"?

But again, the Bible's use of "jealousy" to describe God is different from human jealousy.

God's "jealousy" is a good character trait when used in reference to God. It is an aspect that cannot be separated from His agape/love.

Jealousy is jealousy.

There aren't two types of jealousy.

[John317]

Jealousy is jealousy.

There aren't two types of jealousy.

God's jealousy-- just like God's anger and "hate"-- is not the same as human jealousy.

That is putting God down on a sinful, human level.

[ClubV12]

Such a limited view of the character of God, as if we were capable of understanding it in it's fullness. Presumption....

Membership, in any organization comes with certain minimum standards. Rules, laws, governing guidelines. At some point when a person falls to far outside those minimum guidelines or actively supports a major rewite or cancellation of those minimum standards the group, company, society or church has to take action. They must change the fundamental standards of the group, dissolve, terminate membership or lower the standards of the "name" to the point where it becomes meaningless. Or, they can remove the dissenter from the organization to protect those minimum standards.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Jealousy is jealousy.

There aren't two types of jealousy.

God's jealousy-- just like God's anger and "hate"-- is not the same as human jealousy.

That is putting God down on a sinful, human level.

How is it different?

[miz3]

Such a limited view of the character of God, as if we were capable of understanding it in it's fullness. Presumption....

Membership, in any organization comes with certain minimum standards. Rules, laws, governing guidelines. At some point when a person falls to far outside those minimum guidelines or actively supports a major rewite or cancellation of those minimum standards the group, company, society or church has to take action. They must change the fundamental standards of the group, dissolve, terminate membership or lower the standards of the "name" to the point where it becomes meaningless. Or, they can remove the dissenter from the organization to protect those minimum standards.

1. Our view of God is by reading what God says to us about Himself. Texts like Isaiah chapter forty-five are huge looks at what God Himself says about Himself.

2. Get used to it. The SDA Church has not enforced its standards in an exact way except in some very special circumstances. Like those obvious and public instances that rise to a high profile status (Des Ford for example).

Most SDA do not live by the stated standards or even believe the stated doctrines of the SDA brethren. This is especially true among the demographic of age forty and under.

SDA are in deep chaos.

[ClubV12]

"Most" don't follow the GC, Conference, local church rules? Thats a gross mistatement, we've heard this accusation before, repeating it doesn't make it any more true today than it did yesterday. It's still misleading. We have a church manual that MOST Seventh-day Adventist churches follow.

To wit, to be a deacon, Elder, teacher, member, to be baptized to hold any church office you have to meet certain minimum standards. Where are those standards found? The church manual for one, as accepted by the GC, Conference and Pastor of our local churches.

It is folly to suggest that "most" Adventist churches have thrown it out. You WISH they did, you WISH folks would believe this lie, you wish in vain.