Did Dr. Kellogg really teach pantheistic theories?

[skyblue888]

Let us begin with the first statement from the Living Temple.

“Gravitation acts instantaneously throughout all space. By this mysterious force of gravitation the whole universe is held together in a bond of unity…. We have here the evidence of a universal presence, an intelligent presence, an all-wise presence, an all-powerful presence, a presence by the aid of which every atom of the universe is kept in touch with every other atom. This force that holds all things together, that is everywhere present, that thrills throughout the whole universe, that acts instantaneously through boundless space, can be nothing else than God Himself. What a wonderful thought that this same God is in us and in everything!”—General Conference Bulletin, Feb. 12, 1897, p. 83.

This statement is nothing but the truth of the Bible. "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. It is God by His Spirit who holds all things together. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28.

In this statement Dr. Kellogg is simply stating that God is present everywhere. In other words, as Mrs. White herself said, "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

This active Agency is the third Person of the Godhead.

Did you get that? This is exactly wht Dr. Kellogg is talking about. He is not teaching that nature is God or that God is nature but that God is perpetually at work in nature, that there is in nature the continual working of an intelligent presence, of an unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all:

In the book Education, p.14, Mrs. White is talking about the "true knowledge of God" and she speaks of a universal presence, of an unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all.

"Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all. The mind of man is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite. The effect of such a communion on body and mind and soul is beyond estimate. In this communion is found the highest education." Education, p.14.

On page 100 of the same book the Holy Spirit says, "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things."

On the same page the Holy Spirit speaks of "the unity of man with nature and with God, the universal dominion of law."

In Testimonies, Vol.8, p.325, we read, "Those who judge of God, from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything."

With the eyes of the understanding, of course, they see the Invisible!

Now if that is pantheism, then Mrs. White is the chief of all pantheists!

Can we identify this intelligent presence that is moving in all things:

""Take your children into the garden and explain to them how He causes the seed to grow... THE LORD PUTS HIS OWN SPIRIT INTO THE SEED, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit. As the children study the great lessonbook of nature, God will impress their minds. As they are told of THE WORK THAT HE DOES FOR THE SEED, they learn the SECRET OF GROWTH IN GRACE. Rightly understood, these lessons lead to the Creator, teaching those SIMPLE, HOLY TRUTHS that bring the heart into close touch with God." 8 T 326,327.

"Rightly understood, both the revelations of science and the experiences of life are in harmony with the testimony of Scripture to the CONSTANT WORKING OF GOD IN NATURE." Education, p.130.

Now the second statement from Dr. kellogg:

“Let us not forget that the sunlight is God's smile of benediction; that the sunshine is Heaven's light and life and glory, the true Shekinah, the real presence with which the temple needs most to be filled; that the cooling breeze is the breath of heaven, a veritable messenger of life, carrying healing on its wings.”—Id., p. 412.

Not notice the following words from the book Education, pp.197,198, we read these words:

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health, and joy."

Now from page 108:

"It is the word of God, the impartation of His life, that gives life to the seed, and of that life, we, in eating the grain, become partakers. This God desires us to discern. He desires that even in receiving our dailly bread we may recognize His agency and may be brought into closer fellowship with Him."

"Without the life of God, nature would die." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.1, p.1081.

Thus we read, "All created things live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301.

"A mysterious life pervades all nature--a life that sustains the unnumbered worlds throughout immensity, that lives in the insect atom which floats in the summer breeze,, that wings the flight of the swallow, and feeds the young ravens which cry, that brings the bud to blossom and the flower to fruit. The same power that upholds all nature, is working also in man." Education, p.99.

." Ministry of Healing, p.397."Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life

In the Desire of Ages, p.606, we read, "The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God."

Then we read, "The divine Spirit that the world's Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1890.

Now how is this any different than what Dr. Kellogg said here: “God is the explanation of nature,—not a God outside of nature, but in nature, manifesting Himself through and in all the objects, movements, and varied phenomena of the universe.”—“The Living Temple,” p. 28.

He is not saying that God is nature or that nature is God but that God is moving in nature, that there is an intelligent presence at work in all created things as Mrs. White stated in the book Education, p.14,99,100 and Ministry of Healing, p.416.

So this is exactly what Dr. Kellogg said, ".”—“There is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree maker in the tree Living Temple,” J. H. Kellogg, p. 29. Battle Creek, Michigan: Good Health Publishing Company, 1903.

In Patriarchs and Prophets, p.114, she writes,

"Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.'"

This is made possible by the third Person of the Godhead. It is by the Holy Spirit, the unseen, mighty Intelligence, that the Father and the Son are continually at work in nature, moving in all things according to their will.

Thus we read, "To those who thus acquaint themselves with Christ, the earth will never more be a lonely and desolate place. It will be their Father's house filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men." Education, p.120.

The earth is filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men!

Now do you see why I believe there has been a conspiracy against Dr Kellogg?

He never taught that nature was God or that God was nature but that nature in her work testified of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will, and this teaching is the teaching of the Word of God.

"Where shall I go from your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Psalm 139:7.

sky

[skyblue888]

And here is the full statement that was quoted from Dr. kellogg:

"There is a clear, complete, satisfactory explanation of the most subtle, the most marvelous phenomena of nature,--namely, an infinite Intelligence working out its purposes. God is the explanation of nature,--not a God outside of nature, but in nature, manifesting Himself through and in all the objects, movements, and varied phenomena of the universe.

Says one, 'God may be present by His Spirit, or by His power, but certainly God Himself cannot be present everywhere at once.' We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, 'God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemeaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but He is not in the tree.'

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree, So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-Maker in the tree, a flower maker in the flower,--a divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

Now this is the best explanation I have ever read except for Ellen G. White.

Read it again and again and then re-read the statements from the Testimonies from my previous post and you will see that Dr. Kellogg had the true knowledge of God and that those who accused him of being a pantheist did not know what they were talking about any more than the Jewish rulers understood the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

sky

"Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397.

[SivartM]

Er... didn't Ellen herself say that he was in error?

[pnattmbtc]

Here's something which discusses it: http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default

One small quote:

Quote:

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? (Letter 230, 1903.)

[teresaq]

Quote:

that acts instantaneously through boundless space, can be nothing else than God Himself. What a wonderful thought that this same God is in us and in everything!”—General Conference Bulletin, Feb. 12, 1897, p. 83.

This statement is nothing but the truth of the Bible. "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. It is God by His Spirit who holds all things together. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28.

In this statement Dr. Kellogg is simply stating that God is present everywhere. In other words, as Mrs. White herself said, "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

This active Agency is the third Person of the Godhead.

kellogg is stating that it is "God Himself", while ellen white says that it is the Holy Spirit (God by His Spirit). you appear to be using "God" and Holy Spirit interchangeably, while both the bible and egw make a distinction.

[SivartM]

I'm not exactly sure what is correct here... I mean, I thought God held everything together; wouldn't that mean that his presence was everywhere? And what is the difference between God and God's Spirit? Is it wrong for me to look at the world and say, "God is here"? Is it just a matter of being able to tell the difference between God and God's presence?

Or what?

[teresaq]

Quote:

And what is the difference between God and God's Spirit?

the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct Persons.

just as we dont have a "spirit" that continues to live after our body dies, neither does God have a "detachable" Spirit, is how i see it.

[SivartM]

If the Spirit is not detachable how is it exactly separate and distinct?

[teresaq]

im confused as to what you are asking, so ill ask a question. do you see the Holy Spirit and the Father as 2 separate Persons?

[SivartM]

In a way. I'm not sure what it means for God to be "separate". I think they're the same.

[John317]

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct and seperate Persons.

Dr. Kellogg was teaching error. Anyone who reads His book, The Living Temple, can see it for themselves. (It can be read online.) Also, Ellen White said clearly that what Dr. Kellogg taught and what she taught were not the same at all.

See below:

Quote:

I am given a message to bear to you and the rest of our physicians who are connected with the Medical Missionary Association. Separate from the influence exerted by the book Living Temple; [A 568-PAGE BOOK ISSUED IN 1903 BY DR. J. H. KELLOGG IN WHICH PANTHEISTIC PHILOSOPHIES WERE PROMULGATED.--COMPILERS.] for it contains specious sentiments. There are in it sentiments that are entirely true, but these are mingled with error. Scriptures are taken out of their connection, and are used to uphold erroneous theories. {1SM 199.1}

The thought of the errors contained in this book has given me great distress, and the experience that I have passed through in connection with the matter has nearly cost me my life. {1SM 199.2}

It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Gal. 6:7). {1SM 199.3}

You have had access to Testimonies for the Church, volumes 7 and 8. In these Testimonies the danger signal is raised. But the light so clear and plain to minds that have not been influenced by deceptive theories, has not been discerned by some. While the misleading theories of this book are entertained by our physicians, there cannot be union between them and the ministers who are bearing the gospel message. There should be no union until there is a change. {1SM 199.4}

When medical missionaries make their practice and example harmonize with the name they bear, when they feel their need of uniting firmly with the ministers of the gospel, then there can be harmonious action. But we must firmly refuse to be drawn away from the platform of eternal truth, which since 1844 has stood the test. {1SM 199, 200}

Alpha Presented in "Living Temple"

I am instructed to speak plainly. "Meet it," is the word spoken to me. "Meet it firmly, and without delay." But it is not to be met by our taking our working forces from the field to investigate doctrines and points of difference. We have no such investigation to make. In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

Our physicians, upon whom important responsibilities rest, should have clear spiritual discernment. They are to stand constantly on guard. Dangers that we do not now discern will soon break upon us, and I greatly desire that they shall not be deceived. I have an intense longing to see them standing free in the Lord. I pray that they may have courage to stand firm for the truth as it is in Jesus, holding fast the beginning of their confidence unto the end.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, pp. 49, 50. {1SM 200.2}

Quote:

The difficulties that have arisen have been very hard to meet, and they are far from being settled yet. One, and another, and still another are presented to me as having been led to accept the pleasing fables that mean the sanctification of sin. Living Temple contains the alpha of a train of heresies. There heresies are similar to those that I met in my first labors in connection with the cause in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, then in Boston, Roxbury, New Bedford, and other parts of Massachusetts. Through them the evil one worked upon the minds of men and women. {11MR 247.1}

Quote:

These words were spoken to me in the night season. The sentiments in "Living Temple" regarding the personality of God have been received even by men who have had a long experience in the truth. When such men consent to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are no longer to regard the subject as a matter to be treated with the greatest delicacy. That those whom we thought sound in the faith should have failed to discern the specious, deadly influence of this science of evil, should alarm us as nothing else has alarmed us. {SpTB07 37.2}

It is something that can not be treated as a small matter that men who have had so much light, and such clear evidence as to the genuineness of the truth we hold, should become unsettled, and led to accept spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God. Those doctrines, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experiences, giving them instead a false science. {SpTB07 37.38}

During the past night, I have been shown more distinctly than ever before that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers, the truths of the word of God. Some one high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? How can they be silent? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand the storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action" {SpTB07 38.1}

... The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? -- The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {SpTB07 39.3}

[teresaq]

In a way. I'm not sure what it means for God to be "separate". I think they're the same.

it can be confusing if we use "God" to refer to all three. i think that is why the bible always makes a difference, calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit by different titles, well Jesus anyway. the Father is always referred to as God-or Father. the Holy Spirit seems to always be referred to as the Spirit. and Jesus is referrred to -new and old testaments-in various ways.

i see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate Beings/Persons, but the same in character, "one" in heart, purpose, thats how i read john 17.

[aldona]

This is an illustration to me of how fine the line is in Adventism between being "right" and being "wrong".

If you fail to find the right words to split in describing your view of an incredibly complex idea, you immediately fall on the wrong side of the line and become a dangerous agent of deception.

Why can't we simply admit that God (and the manner in which He works) is far beyond the capacity of our limited human brains to grasp, that we will not have all the answers until we get to heaven, that we will continue to struggle to express His marvellous works in human language, and we should concentrate on worshipping Him and loving our neighbors?

AJ

[SivartM]

The whole God-as-multiple (or even singular)-beings thing sounds awfully anthropomorphic. We may as well ask what the Father's waist size is (Ellen did say something about him having a form like ours, right?) or how much mass the Spirit has.

I agree that God is one in essence, and I can agree that God has limited himself to relate to us as three "beings", I don't think that is what God really is.

[John317]

You don't believe in the Trinity?

Do you believe the Father is a person?

What does that mean to you?

If you have the book, Evangelism, check out pages 614-617.

[SivartM]

I said that I don't believe in the Trinity?

Of course.

I don't know. I've never seen a localized physical manifestation of him, but I know that's he's here with me right now.

[teresaq]

This is an illustration to me of how fine the line is in Adventism between being "right" and being "wrong".

If you fail to find the right words to split in describing your view of an incredibly complex idea, you immediately fall on the wrong side of the line and become a dangerous agent of deception.

Why can't we simply admit that God (and the manner in which He works) is far beyond the capacity of our limited human brains to grasp, that we will not have all the answers until we get to heaven, that we will continue to struggle to express His marvellous works in human language, and we should concentrate on worshipping Him and loving our neighbors?

AJ

how true!! i do have to struggle to get my point across so i wont be accused of something i didnt say and dont believe... :)

[SivartM]

how true!! i do have to struggle to get my point across so i wont be accused of something i didnt say and dont believe...

I can try but someone will still find it hard to believe that I believe in God.

[teresaq]

The whole God-as-multiple (or even singular)-beings thing sounds awfully anthropomorphic. We may as well ask what the Father's waist size is (Ellen did say something about him having a form like ours, right?) or how much mass the Spirit has.

I agree that God is one in essence, and I can agree that God has limited himself to relate to us as three "beings", I don't think that is what God really is.

yes, we are warned not to delve too deeply into what God is, but to study more about how He is, His love and care for us.

[John317]

I said that I don't believe in the Trinity?

Of course.

I don't know. I've never seen a localized physical manifestation of him, but I know that's he's here with me right now.

Do you depend on what you "see" for your belief about God? Or do you depend on God's special revelation?

Bible says we walk by faith and not by sight.

Have you studied what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach on the topic of the Godhead?

[John317]

I said that I don't believe in the Trinity?

Of course.

I don't know. I've never seen a localized physical manifestation of him, but I know that's he's here with me right now.

Do you believe the SDA beliefs given below?

Quote:

2. Trinity:

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Notice it says that God consists of three seperate and distinct, co-eternal Persons. They are one God. God is "what", and the Persons are "who." All three Persons is God, and all are equal. God is one in essence, character, and purpose.

Quote:

3. Father:

God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. Son:

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. Holy Spirit:

God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

[SivartM]

Of course my experience has a large influence on what I believe. It doesn't make much sense to believe in something that is outright illogical because faith somehow cancels logic.

And what I'm saying is illogical is that the Bible says that God is nothing like us, and is present with us always, but I'm supposed to think that God is very much like us, with a body like ours, and boundaries, and a basically finite (but very big) existence.

Of course I've studied it. That's how I know that God is unfathomable.

[SivartM]

Notice it says that God consists of three seperate and distinct, co-eternal Persons. They are one God. God is "what", and the Persons are "who." All three Persons is God, and all are equal. God is one in essence, character, and purpose.

Yes, yes, okay, sure. What does that mean? How is infinity divided into three finite things (since, to be separate and distinct, it would seem that they would have to be finite)?

[Guest]

I think the jury is still out on that one John.

[teresaq]

And what I'm saying is illogical is that the Bible says that God is nothing like us, and is present with us always, but I'm supposed to think that God is very much like us, with a body like ours, and boundaries, and a basically finite (but very big) existence.

its not that God is like us, we were created in His image. yes, God has a "body", but not like ours...i dont think that having bodies would make them "finite" tho.