Did Dr. Kellogg really teach pantheistic theories?

[teresaq]

im sorry sivartm. i have no idea why the discussion took the turn it did.

while i dont especially understand your questions, well, im just sorry the discussion went the way it did. i have no idea what was hoped to be accomplished in doing that.

on the upside you get to be like us when you get old...oh no, that wont work...i saw a teen-ager elsewhere who had already "arrived". :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Did every single thing that Ellen White wrote can be considered as inspired "word of God"? She wrote the amount of Biblical Narrative 100 times over... including commentaries in newspapers and various publications. To assume that every letter she wrote was in fact SOP is to make her a Pope.

In terms of what she said in regard to the Godhead, what statements of Ellen White do you wish to reject or ignore?

the question was, was everything that ellen white wrote "inspired", the answer is no.

the personal letters she wrote to family were not messages from God to people, for example.

[teresaq]

Exactly, we need to make sure from the Bible if EGW is saying anything that contradicts it, which she doesn't. Its amazing that we have a problem with EGW but not Kellogg?

im at a loss. i cant see anywhere where fccool, or anyone else other than the author of this thread, is supporting kellogg...

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, yes, okay, sure. What does that mean? How is infinity divided into three finite things (since, to be separate and distinct, it would seem that they would have to be finite)?

Why would you think this? Infinity divided by 3 is infinity. For example consider the set of natural numbers, 1,4,7,10, etc.; 2,5,8,11,etc.; 3,6,9,12,etc. These three sets would be separate and distinct, yet infinite.

[pnattmbtc]

S:Nothing against the Bible. But I don't think that the Bible would teach anything that didn't make sense.

J:Does God coming as a human and dying like a criminal nailed to a tree make sense? How about the dead being resurrected?

None of those things make sense. Even the Bible says the gospel is folly and foolishness to those who are worldly wise. 1 Cor. 1:18-25

[teresaq]

not to mention cutting ourselves off from the greatest "sermons" ever!! i just love it when God explains something to me, little nothing me. wow!!

to add to your thought tho, God didnt create us as intelligent thinking beings then say, "but just take everything i say on faith".

[pnattmbtc]

A lot of people have the idea that faith is believing things that don't make sense, when that's not it at all.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

S:But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna.

J:Are you serious about this kind of reply? Is this representative of your thinking on why we Seventh-day Adventists believe the Bible?

It's a reasonable reply. His point is that once one decides that logic and reason aren't important, this is the sort of thing you're left with.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You can't believe that God is everywhere and in all things, and at the same time believe that God is in the sanctuary in heaven with Christ.

I thought God was omnipresent..

[skyblue888]

Wow, I was shocked when I realized how far this thread had gone. The last time I checked there was not one reply! There are a lot of posts but not one of you has dealt with the introductory posts in which are plenty of statements showing what Pantheism is and what Pantheism is not.

Yes God is omnipresent. How would that make of none effect the sanctuary doctrine?

John you said:

You can't believe that God is everywhere and in all things, and at the same time believe that God is in the sanctuary in heaven with Christ.

John317

__________________

John, the teaching that the universe is God or that God is the universe is the teaching that would sweep away the whole Christian economy because if there is no personal God, no personal Christ, then there is no Heaven either and therefore no sanctuary.

But believing and teaching that God by the Spirit is everywhere present, that His presence is in everything, moving in all things according to His will, working in and through all, as the Testimonies have clearly declared, does not in any way, shape, or form, do away with the sanctuary doctrine. I don't see how, do you?

The doctrine that sweeps away the whole Christian economy is the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature. "I was called to rebuke those who presented the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.293.

Now that is the teaching that nature is God but "Nature is not God, nor was it ever God.. There is a personal God, the Father; there is a personal Christ, the Son." 1 S.M.293.

Pantheism does not recognize that. Pantheism declares that the unniverse is God! If the universe is God then there is no personal God, no personal Christ. According to this theory God would be a mere impersonal essence! If that were true, we would have to conclude that the power that upholds all things is not intelligent since it would be a mere actuating energy! But that is a lie!

Look at the difference. In the book Education, p.100 we read, "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things."."

Notice the capital P! The "Presence that pervades all created things.

There is a very subtle difference here. Do you see it?

It is by the Spirit that God can be present everywhere. The Spirit is God, is He not? He is the Third Person of the Godhead. So then we read, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.325.

How can anyone say that God is not present in everything after reading statements like these? We can't reason it out. We can only accept this fact by faith because it is beyond our comprehension. That is what faith is all about. Believing just what God says.

"Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Ps.139:7.

Back to you.

sky

[fccool]

Quote:

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Kellog did not convey the idea of Pantheism. Pantheism states that nature and God are the same... these are identical. Anotherwords, God can not be separated from nature, because God is nature.

This is not what Kellog is saying. He is saying that God constantly gives life to nature. Without Him, the nature would die.

I believe E.G. White misunderstood what he was saying in this case. Perhaps she looked or talked to him about the issue, but based on these statements alone, he can't be accused of peddling pantheism.

[skyblue888]

"The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it." Dr. Kellogg

Kellog did not convey the idea of Pantheism. Pantheism states that nature and God are the same... these are identical. Anotherwords, God can not be separated from nature, because God is nature.

This is not what Kellog is saying. He is saying that God constantly gives life to nature. Without Him, the nature would die.

I believe E.G. White misunderstood what he was saying in this case. Perhaps she looked or talked to him about the issue, but based on these statements alone, he can't be accused of peddling pantheism.

fccool

__________________

Yes, brother, I really appreciate the way you explained how pantheism would have it that God and nature are the same, that they cannot be separated, that they are identical. That God cannot be separated from nature because God is nature or that nature is God.

I could not have said it better.

I read that Mrs. White even admitted that she had never read the book THE LIVING TEMPLE... it was her son W.C. White who was amenable to the men of the General Conference who had begun a campaign against Dr. Kellogg and who started this controversy. They had put God aside and accepted the devisings of men and because a man such a Dr. Kellogg, and A.T. Jones for that matter, could not be brought under their control, they even went so far as to forging testimonies in an effort to bring these "renegates" under their control. And God allowed all this to take place because these men were determined to have their own way.

"Without the life of God nature would die." E.G. White, 1 B.C.1081.

sky

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.361.

[pnattmbtc]

The points that Sky made about God being personal are what I would have said. I was waiting to see if anyone would make these points. I think that this is what the fundamental issue is. Is God a personal Being with intelligence, or an "essence" that's in all of us and the universe as a whole?

Quote:

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? (Letter 230, 1903.)

I was looking to see what Ellen White specifically object to. I see this. Is there anything else? I don't think arbitrarily quoting something from Kellogg, and saying, "This isn't pantheism" is of much value. Let's consider what the specific issue(s) was/were that Ellen White was addressing.

She pointed out that the issues were subtle, the truth lies close to error, and I agree with her there.

[skyblue888]

Yes of course the issues were subtle. Compare these two statements again:

the truth first:

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, p.100.

Now the counterfeit:

"I was called to rebuke those who presented the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." Testimonies, Vol.8:293.

I am sure everyone can see how subtle this is.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? (Letter 230, 1903.)

Now to me this is a very obscure statement. I doubt Ellen White ever wrote these words and here is why. It is in utter contradiction with the bulk of her statements regarding this issue. Are we to believe that Christ never spoke of this to His disciples? As He walked through the fields with them, Mrs White stated, "Here He opened to them the volume of Providence... He unfolded to them the beauties of the natural world. He sought to open the eyes of their understanding, that they might see how the hand of God upholds the World." Desire of Ages, p.525.

It is not God the Being but God the Spirit, God's immediate Agency, who is moving in all things according to His will, working in and through all.

"Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

The Spirit is "the mind of God." The mind of God is moving in all things, working in and through all:

"Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all. The mind of man is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite." Education, p.14

On that page Mrs. White says that this is the "highest education" and that it is "the true knowledge of God." The Spirit is "the hand of God" that upholds all things and the Spirit is just as much God as Christ is or the Father is.

If you have that book, please go and read the whole page for yourself.

Remember that the leaders of the G.C. had started a campaign against Dr. Kellogg and were doing everything contrary to the Testimonies as to how they were supposed to relate to him and W.C. White was amenable to them manipulating the testimonies. That is why I believe there were some statements that were inserted in the form of "letters" or "special testimonies" in order to discredit the work of that man whom God called "His physician."

sky

[teresaq]

Then you won't mind telling me what a person is.

for me a "person" is a being, not necessarily human. (tho the papal/protestant trinity doctrine makes a difference-3 persons in one being-something incomprehensible but they take it on "faith".)

God is a Person, a non-human Being. the angels are persons, but not human. the beings of other worlds are persons that are not necessarily human.

this text comes to mind and may or may not be of help,

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[teresaq]

Quote:

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Kellog did not convey the idea of Pantheism. Pantheism states that nature and God are the same... these are identical. Anotherwords, God can not be separated from nature, because God is nature.

This is not what Kellog is saying. He is saying that God constantly gives life to nature. Without Him, the nature would die.

I believe E.G. White misunderstood what he was saying in this case. Perhaps she looked or talked to him about the issue, but based on these statements alone, he can't be accused of peddling pantheism.

[teresaq]

The points that Sky made about God being personal are what I would have said. I was waiting to see if anyone would make these points. I think that this is what the fundamental issue is. Is God a personal Being with intelligence, or an "essence" that's in all of us and the universe as a whole?

Quote:

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in

the things of nature--in the flower, the tree, the spear of

grass--would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples? (Letter 230, 1903.)

I was looking to see what Ellen White specifically object to. I see this. Is there anything else? I don't think arbitrarily quoting something from Kellogg, and saying, "This isn't pantheism" is of much value. Let's consider what the specific issue(s) was/were that Ellen White was addressing.

She pointed out that the issues were subtle, the truth lies close to error, and I agree with her there.

yes, that is the problem, her statements can sound very much in tune with kelloggs, but mean something else entirely. it did weary her that she was misunderstood so often.

[pnattmbtc]

Now to me this is a very obscure statement. I doubt Ellen White ever wrote these words and here is why.

Are you saying that Ellen White was not against what Kellogg wrote? That the comments to this effect were planted?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: sky

Now to me this is a very obscure statement. I doubt Ellen White ever wrote these words and here is why.

Are you saying that Ellen White was not against what Kellogg wrote? That here comments to this effect were planted?

Yep. I do believe that's what he is saying.

What if I don't agree with what she said about say...coffee and tea. Can I just claim that I don't believe she said it, and be relieved of any responsibility concerning my coffee and tea habits?

[skyblue888]

In An Appeal and Some History, Experience, and Facts, I gave some evidence that "comments" or "letters" were forged and "planted" to discredit A.T. Jones. By comparing 1 S.M.377 with 1 S.M.130 one get the definite impression of fowl play.

Jones even demonstrated in Some History, Experience, and Facts that W.C. White would withhold testimonies from being published.

And example of that is the statement found in T.M.481 which says that "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct."

It took one year and a half before this statement was made available to the church.

Jones gives story after story of what was done with the Testimonies while the leaders of the G.C. maintained a semblance of zeal and loyalty to the Testimonies.

One has to read An Appeal and Some History, Experience, and Facts, from beginning to end in order to appreciate what really happened in those days.

Mrs. White warned that "Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.361.

This is exactly what happened.

sky

*Everyone here should know that I am a strong believer in the gift of prophecy. But I always remain on the lookout for statements that just don't jibe with the bulk of the testimonies in regard to Kellogg and Jones.

[fccool]

Richard,

"You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362)

I'd like to see that blown up on on the doors of the Adventist potlucks .

[skyblue888]

Teresa wrote:

It seems ellen whites concern was that God was being made into some kind of air-like entity that pervaded all nature, animate and inanimate, instead of a literal, physical Being. ellen white called it spiritualism.

_____________________________________________

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, p.100.

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

The Presence that pervades all created things!

See His presence in everything!

"The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of, and a personal interest in, all the works of His hand." Education, p.132.

So here we have God the Being who is in Heaven and yet by the Spirit, His immediate Agency, He is everywhere present, moving in all things, working in and through all.

Now compare this with Dr. Kellogg's writings:

"There is a clear, complete, satisfactory explanation of the most subtle, the most marvelous phenomena of nature,--namely, an infinite Intelligence working out its purposes. God is the explanation of nature,--not a God outside of nature, but in nature, manifesting Himself through and in all the objects, movements, and varied phenomena of the universe.

Says one, 'God may be present by His Spirit, or by His power, but certainly God Himself cannot be present everywhere at once.' We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, 'God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemeaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but He is not in the tree.'

The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree making in the living trees, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it.

Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree, So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-Maker in the tree, a flower maker in the flower,--a divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless beneficient activity."

This is not the theory of a pantheist but of one who had the true knowledge of God. Kellogg believed in a personal God and in a personal Christ. How could he be a pantheist?

sky

[skyblue888]

The reason why the latter rain message has been so long delayed and therefore the finishing of the work and the return of Jesus, is that Satan has succeeded in hiding from us the true knowledge of God, the merits of Christ, and Gospel Order.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

The reason why the latter rain message has been so long delayed and therefore the finishing of the work and the return of Jesus, is that Satan has succeeded in hiding from us the true knowledge of God, the merits of Christ, and Gospel Order.

I agree regarding the true knowledge of God, but don't know what you mean but the other two things.