Did Dr. Kellogg really teach pantheistic theories?

[John317]

Of course my experience has a large influence on what I believe. It doesn't make much sense to believe in something that is outright illogical because faith somehow cancels logic.

There are many people who say the same thing and this is their argument for why they don't believe that Christ is God or that the Holy Spirit is a person.

We need to conform our beliefs to the teachings of the Bible on this as well as all other subjects that God has revealed. Otherwise we make our own reasoning the standard of truth.

Does the Second Coming and the resurrection make "sense" and are they "logical"? They are not to many people. But would you advise them for that reason to discount those teachings?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

And what I'm saying is illogical is that the Bible says that God is nothing like us,

That is not what the Bible teaches. It says that God made humans in his own image.

Where does the Bible say that humans are nothing like Him?

Study the following by Ellen G. White:

Quote:

I saw a throne and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired his lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for said he if you should once behold the glory of his person you would cease to exist. Before the throne I saw the Advent people, the church, and the world. I saw a company, bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the most of them stood up disinterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then he would look to his Father, and appeared to be pleading with him. A light would come from the Father to the Son, and from the son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light; many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them; some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light, and rejoiced in it, as their countenances shone with its glory. And I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming Chariot go into the Holy of Holies, within the veil, and did sit. There I saw thrones that I had never seen before. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him; and I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after he arose, and they were left in perfect darkness.--Ellen Harmon, "To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad," April 6, 1846. See also Early Writings, pp. 54-56.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

and is present with us always, but I'm supposed to think that God is very much like us, with a body like ours, and boundaries, and a basically finite (but very big) existence.

When we say Jesus Christ is a glorified man and is limited to a human body, and that He is in the sanctuary in heaven with His Father, we do not mean that the Father is somewhere else. He is in the temple in heaven with Christ. Through the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father are with us, but Christ cannot be personally and literally with us apart from the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that's why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be with us, because Jesus cannot be everywhere at once like the Spirit can.

Quote:

Of course I've studied it. That's how I know that God is unfathomable.

No one can completely understand everything about God, but there are many things He has revealed to us, and we can know these things for sure. That includes the things that He inspired Ellen White to write.

No one is saying that humans can fathom everything about the Trinity, but at the same time, it is false to say that we cannot understand anything about Him. He has revealed many things about Himself, including the above quotations.

As another instance, through Ellen White, we know that "the Holy Spirit has a personality," and that He "is a person," "the third Person of the Godhead." See Ev. 616-617. These same things are revealed to us through the Bible.

[SivartM]

There are many people who say the same thing and this is their argument for why they don't believe that Christ is God or that the Holy Spirit is a person.

We need to conform our beliefs to the teachings of the Bible on this as well as all other subjects that God has revealed. Otherwise we make our own reasoning the standard of truth.

Does the Second Coming and the resurrection make "sense" and are they "logical"? They are not to many people. But would you advise them for that reason to discount those teachings?

[John317]

Notice it says that God consists of three seperate and distinct, co-eternal Persons. They are one God. God is "what", and the Persons are "who." All three Persons is God, and all are equal. God is one in essence, character, and purpose.

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Yes, yes, okay, sure. What does that mean? How is infinity divided into three finite things (since, to be separate and distinct, it would seem that they would have to be finite)?

How does being separate and distinct persons necessairly make them "finite"?

[SivartM]

How does being separate and distinct persons necessairly make them "finite"?

Because to be distinct is to have boundaries, which contradicts infinity.

[John317]

Nothing against the Bible. But I don't think that the Bible would teach anything that didn't make sense.

Does God coming as a human and dying like a criminal nailed to a tree make sense? How about the dead being resurrected?

None of those things make sense. Even the Bible says the gospel is folly and foolishness to those who are worldly wise. 1 Cor. 1:18-25

Quote:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

[20] Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. [22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, [23] but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, [24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

[SivartM]

Isn't that what people say when they think that God is a donut? "Well, does such-and-such make sense? No? Then we needn't worry about logic or any of that stuff! No need to bother trying to find a theology that actually makes sense."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How does being separate and distinct persons necessairly make them "finite"?

Because to be distinct is to have boundaries, which contradicts infinity.

Christ is not finite by reason of His confining Himself to a human body.

Being everywhere at once is not what makes God infinite.

That's what omnipresence is. Christ can only be omnipresent through the Holy Spirit. He cannot be with each of us personally, except through His representative, the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

Isn't that what people say when they think that God is a donut? "Well, does such-and-such make sense? No? Then we needn't worry about logic or any of that stuff! No need to bother trying to find a theology that actually makes sense."

Are we talking about the the Bible teaches?

I haven't heard anyone say God is a donut. Does the Bible teach that?

Do you believe the Bible or man's opinions?

We only know what God is like from His self-revelation. Human knowledge adds nothing to God's special revelation when it comes to knowing what God is like or when it comes to knowing what heaven and the new earth will be like.

[SivartM]

Can you translate that from Theological to English? You still haven't told me what any of this means. What is a person? What is omnipresence? What is infinity? What is separation? What is finity?

Maybe, just maybe... we can't comprehend God. Just a thought. But a thought that seems to be supported by the apparent lack of explanation.

[John317]

Can you translate that from Theological to English? You still haven't told me what any of this means. What is a person? What is omnipresence? What is infinity? What is separation? What is finity?

Maybe, just maybe... we can't comprehend God. Just a thought. But a thought that seems to be supported by the apparent lack of explanation.

I thought you studied this from the Bible and from the Spirit of prophecy.

Are you telling me you don't know what a person is?

We've already discussed these things many times on the Forum.

A person has a will, feelings, a center of conciousness, plans, intelligence, can be lied to, etc. These are characteristics of a person as opposed to non-persons.

[SivartM]

Then you won't mind telling me what a person is.

[Guest]

I think we have just veered into the absurd...

[John317]

Yes, we have, and I have more important things to do with my time.

[John317]

Can you translate that from Theological to English? You still haven't told me what any of this means. What is a person? What is omnipresence? What is infinity? What is separation? What is finity?

Maybe, just maybe... we can't comprehend God. Just a thought. But a thought that seems to be supported by the apparent lack of explanation.

Suggestion: go to the bookstore or library for a dictionary of theology, etc., and study. I'm tired of doing people's research for them. It's waste of time.

[SivartM]

Then I guess my finite understanding God is not important enough to argue about in the first place. Thank you for confirming that. Now I don't feel like I must know exactly what those terms mean or exactly what God is.

[John317]

Then I guess my finite understanding God is not important enough to argue about in the first place. Thank you for confirming that. Now I don't feel like I must know exactly what those terms mean or exactly what God is.

It is with some people, certainly. But not with people who claim they have studied the topic in the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, but then then go on to say things that disprove their claim.

[SivartM]

Sorry for bothering you. You had plenty of answers to questions I didn't ask so I assumed that you wouldn't mind answering such a simple one as that. I won't bother you with my naive little questions anymore.

[SivartM]

Just so you know, I lost the verse that explained the meaning of all those theological terms. Maybe if we need a dictionary to understand the Bible it's not so sola scriptura after all.

[Guest]

Appearantly some people need a dictionary just to understand what a person is.

[John317]

There are many people who say the same thing and this is their argument for why they don't believe that Christ is God or that the Holy Spirit is a person.

We need to conform our beliefs to the teachings of the Bible on this as well as all other subjects that God has revealed. Otherwise we make our own reasoning the standard of truth.

Does the Second Coming and the resurrection make "sense" and are they "logical"? They are not to many people. But would you advise them for that reason to discount those teachings?

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But it's that reasoning that convinces people of the most insane things. I could insist that the world is made of snow because of some holy writing that I translated from hieroglyphics on diamond lasagna noodles, and that if you use human reasoning it makes no sense but if you just listen to this quote from the holy lasagna you will see that you must have faith in the inerrant word of the holy lasagna.

Are you serious about this kind of reply? Is this representative of your thinking on why we Seventh-day Adventists believe the Bible?

[John317]

Read it again and again and then re-read the statements from the Testimonies from my previous post and you will see that Dr. Kellogg had the true knowledge of God and that those who accused him of being a pantheist did not know what they were talking about any more than the Jewish rulers understood the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Why would you be asking people to read Dr. Kellogg when Ellen White said people shouldn't read what Kellogg wrote on the topic?

Kellogg really wasn't a pantheist-- which is defined as "everything is God"-- but rather Kellogg taught that God is in all things. (He wrote, for instance, that God is in the water we drink and bathe in, in the air we breath, and in the food we eat.) But those beliefs are very similar and they are both attacks against the truth about the personality of God. Both teaching would destroy the sanctuary doctrine, just as Ellen White said.

You can't believe that God is everywhere and in all things, and at the same time believe that God is in the sanctuary in heaven with Christ.

Remember Ellen White's warning:

Quote:

It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Gal. 6:7). {1SM 199.3}

You have had access to Testimonies for the Church, volumes 7 and 8. In these Testimonies the danger signal is raised. But the light so clear and plain to minds that have not been influenced by deceptive theories, has not been discerned by some. While the misleading theories of this book are entertained by our physicians, there cannot be union between them and the ministers who are bearing the gospel message. There should be no union until there is a change. {1SM 199.4}

[fccool]

It is with some people, certainly. But not with people who claim they have studied the topic in the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, but then then go on to say things that disprove their claim.

Did every single thing that Ellen White wrote can be considered as inspired "word of God"? She wrote the amount of Biblical Narrative 100 times over... including commentaries in newspapers and various publications. To assume that every letter she wrote was in fact SOP is to make her a Pope.

[John317]

I think the jury is still out on that one John.

Not the "jury," but in the minds of some individuals, yes.

But it's true that no one should believe these things-- or any other Bible doctrines-- simply because others do, but everyone must study them out for himself and make up his own mind.

[John317]

It is with some people, certainly. But not with people who claim they have studied the topic in the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, but then then go on to say things that disprove their claim.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Did every single thing that Ellen White wrote can be considered as inspired "word of God"? She wrote the amount of Biblical Narrative 100 times over... including commentaries in newspapers and various publications. To assume that every letter she wrote was in fact SOP is to make her a Pope.

In terms of what she said in regard to the Godhead, what statements of Ellen White do you wish to reject or ignore?

At this point, it's not a question of whether people believe the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy. The first step is just knowing what they teach, and then later after we establish what they say, we can decide whether we believe them.

[phkrause]